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#453206 - 11/11/13 08:08 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: catfish86]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: O Kanada
Originally Posted By: catfish86
resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die



!!!

that is absolutely brilliant.

worth repeating again.

resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die

why didn't i learn that thirty years ago??

that may be the best analogy i have heard in years.

purge the poison.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

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#453222 - 11/11/13 11:17 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: Jacob S]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 300
A very good point. I like it.
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rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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#453236 - 11/11/13 12:49 PM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
Rich918 Offline


Registered: 10/28/13
Posts: 45
So, you forgive them... then what? Become friends? Chum around with them watching sitcoms with bowl of popcorn? Cartoons and Cap'n Crunch? Of course not, you would still want nothing to do with them. Is that really forgiveness? Thats just pretending that everything is OK when you know its not and it never shall be. And the reality is that its directly because of them and that fact shall never change no matter how much you try to pretend that it will. That old barn may look great when its freshly painted, but its still made of rotted wood. Who truly benefits from it? Forgiveness is just another form of denial and repression. It only seeks an appearance of good... just a paltry facade of harmony, so its no surprise that the Church would promote it. The Church would forgive a chronic rapist but would excommunicate anyone disagreeing with their dogma.

The world tries to tell us that anger and hatred are negative, bad, evil things. I quite disagree. They are human emotions which, indeed, serve a purpose. As with many things, overindulgence may LEAD these emotions to negative, bad, evil things. Overindulgent anger may spill into belligerence; hatred may spill into bigotry; pleasure may spill into lust; desire may spill into greed. But the initial emotions are not, in themselves, bad or evil. They are natural. They are mechanisms of survival.

Just as naturally as we smile in the mirth of pleasure, it is natural for human beings to be angered when their dignity is steamrolled; when you are taught to be ashamed of your own name. If there was no anger, such behavior would continue, thus, continuing to damage self-worth, and therefore, social function.

Being raped day after day and week after week for ten years is not a mistake... it is not simply poor judgement, especially when they consciously try to hide the fact from public view so they can continue doing it, proving that they KNOW that its wrong (as if they could be ignorant of this)! But they should be forgiven?!? We should not hate them, yet they should be absolved from accountability for the lifelong damage they have caused simply for their own immediate enjoyment?!?

If being raped all throughout childhood was met only with a mild annoyance instead of intense repulsion, it would not only keep that person in a very dangerous place, but it would soon become socially normal to rape children (ehh, its not that bad), thus undermining the very purpose of civilization. Hatred keeps it from poisoning the social apparatus. It serves to ensure that they are no longer a part of your life to endanger you further.


Edited by Rich918 (11/11/13 01:32 PM)

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#453310 - 11/12/13 03:54 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
Onesimus75 Offline


Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
[Triggers! Violent and vengeful imagery.]
I'm not mildly annoyed at what happened to me.
I think that my perps deserve to be drug through the street, mocked, spit on, ridiculed, beaten within an inch of their life, have the flesh ripped off their bones, and then get slowly tortured to death while still being publicly shamed, ridiculed. I think they deserve to die the most painful death that can be invented.
Then I'd like them to go to hell, if I really am honest about what they deserve. I sort of like the idea of them burning and screaming without any hope of help or relief, forever. That feels right

But someone already stepped in and went through all that. I got my vengeance. It's the same person (again, in my world-view which is admittedly a religious one) that.

I'm not allowed to hate my abuser because I'm forbidden to hate anyone.
I'm supposed to pray for and do good to those who hurt and mistreat me.

Those are the things my understanding of my religion tells me I have to do.

I couldn't stop my abusers from taking my innocence.
I will not let them take my integrity.

But as I said before, sometimes the most loving thing to do for someone is to stop them. Maybe that looks like prison. The guy who basically tried to kidnap me for sex, I'm hoping he's been caught and never sees the outside of bars until they've crawled inside his head and out. The first and third perps... I am on the fence about the first one. The third I don't think prison would help, and I really do think he's changed by now, or I'd have gotten law enforcement on him.

Forgiveness isn't necessarily about law or not. I don't always agree, but can understand church bodies that want to deal with abuse in-house, provided that they deal with it, which is yet another thing that I see them not doing in clergy abuse cases again and again.

I've reported just contact between an untreated sex offender and a neighbor family, though I had no proof of abuse. They lost their home and it tore the family apart, but I'd do it again rather than let the kids risk getting hurt. So it isn't a soft-on-crime attitude.

The question of law is a different one from forgiveness in my head. I could send someone to prison for life, and perhaps find different ways to practice kindness for them. Pray for them. Maybe pray for them to suffer enough that they'd change, which is still praying for their benefit.

Vengeance, anger, rage... I've felt those things. I honestly feel them more about the camp that covered up my first abuse than the original abuser, when I reported it.

Forgiveness isn't endangering myself for the other person's sake, 'cause that doesn't love me or them.

Also, though, for me I've found that vengeance and hatred are bottomless pits. There isn't enough hatred to ever make up for what I've had done to me. There isn't enough consequence to ever give me back a normal sex life, or my virginity, or my feeling of being safe just walking down the bleeping street! If I could personally pound on my perp for an hour or two each day with a mallet, those things would still be there in my life.

I just don't have any more energy to throw into pits that I can never fill. Hatred and vengeance didn't ever fill me up or give me peace. I felt more peace praying for them instead. When I reached out (20+ years later) to the only perp I still know about, I didn't feel like I was letting him off the hook. I felt like I was defeating him all over again, 'cause he didn't get to pick my relationship to him. I did.


Edited by Onesimus75 (11/12/13 06:57 AM)
Edit Reason: typo fix
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We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

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#453312 - 11/12/13 04:36 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: Onesimus75]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: O Kanada
i get it, Onesimus75.
i know those thoughts and feelings so well,
inside and out.
much of what you said is true for me, too.
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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#453347 - 11/12/13 12:14 PM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: Onesimus75]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 300
i agree.
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Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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#453349 - 11/12/13 12:17 PM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: Rich918]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 300
Of course not. Why would anyone become friends or anything with an their abuser. If this is what forgivness meant to me then there is no way i would forgive anyone for anything. But your point is well taken. I forgave to get rid of them not hang on to them.

THis is painful stuff .

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com
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Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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