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#84667 - 11/23/06 01:18 AM Re: More research/child pornography
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
NAMBLA and other groups such as PIE ( recently ressurected I beieve ? ) are all clever enough to hide behind a veneer of respectability, by misquoting and editing to suit scientific papers and research etc, and by not openly breaking any laws.

They might well advocate changes in the law, and openly state why they want those changes. But they will be meticulous about appearing to keep with the present laws.
NAMBLA and PIE are dangerous, but the real offences take place much more secretly.

how can anyone advocate any degree of legalisation or relaxation in child porn laws?
For child porn to exist a child has to be abused.

But I have recently seen clear evidence of a line of thinking that can only be described as "not in my back yard" ( nimby ) thinking. And it can easily be applied to the issue of child porn as well.

On another ( nothing to do with csa ) site that I found there is a 'chat' forum where anything goes and one day a young man, early 20's, posted that he'd just visited a night club in a Eastern European city where he'd had picked up a 13yo girl for sex.

A huge argument broke out, as expected, with the decent people saying he was a 'fucking pedo'
Ohters however defended him and said they would do the same because it was "legal in that country" - it wasn't, they were ignorant of the facts. And when faced with documentary evidence of the facts changed their argument to "It's accepted over there" or "how else do they make a living?"

They all agreed that in their home country the age of consent was right ( 16yo ) and their children in particular should refrain from sex until they were married!

The hypocricy was olympic, the riot went on for weeks and turned very nasty and personal ( I no longer go there as I'm not welcome any more ! )
But the attitude of these people was shocking.

As long as it was "someone elses kid" and a "fucking foreigner", as one racist moron so delightfully said, then it's all right!

It would be something if it was just a few idiots, with some just jumping on the bandwagon, but this wasn't. They seemed to be reasonably educated people, and mainly young and married.

Attitudes are changing fast, the internet makes that change both possible and even faster.
And we can't afford the bigots to speak the loudest.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#84668 - 11/23/06 12:57 PM Re: More research/child pornography
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Then the Romanians come here and somehow it is 'legal' for them to be used because perps will pay them or force them into prostitution.

I was in non-tourist Spain and there was a brothel with young girls working there.
Would I use them? NO, but plenty of others would,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#84669 - 11/23/06 02:59 PM Re: More research/child pornography
sis Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 195
Loc: Arizona
The bottom line for me is that any normal person would llook at a grown up having sex or other sexual activity with a child and immediately want to throw up and if sent to my computer i would call the cops and make a report. to find out where it came from. Child abuse is illegal!! Some child was abused in order for them to be in child porn!!! anyone having these images on PC or magazines or anyother way are as guilty as the ones who abused the kids in it. Money and property more important than our kids?? if you get cought with stolen property, it is a crime, whether you commited the crime or not. Why isn't it guilt by association? are our kids not as important as someones property. Whether CP makes someone take thimgs to the next level is irrelevent. It destroys children. That's all we really need to know. It is still very sick to want to see images like cp whether you have actually acted on those fantasies or not. Anyway, sore subject for me. It is just discusting all the way around. light and luv,Sis


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#141276 - 02/12/07 03:22 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: healing_inside]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
first we must define what a pedophile is. The fact remains that many victims have used porn to re victimize themselves in "acting out" behaviors. This does not mean they are pedophiles. Often and until in the recovery process do victims understand this behavior as common. Trust issues have kept many victims from support groups, therapy and recovery leaving them alone in the dark world of shame and guilt attempting to make their experiences "okay".

It is very sad that even one victim becomes a perpetrator when society or watchdog groups label them a pedophile. So in thinking that is what they are they cross than line only to discover they are not, and now they have destroyed the life of an innocent as well as their chance of recovery.

Its is a very fine line, which is why I say use caution before labeling anyone anything.

No, I am not a perp, but I see where society can easily push someone with a foogy reality into a label.

Society creates many monsters through years of systematic abuse.

_philo


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#141278 - 02/12/07 03:40 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: philobat]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I think it depends on the type of porn. If a survivor is looking at child porn, for whatever reason, then he has definitely crossed the line into being a molester. By looking at the porn, he makes himself a party to the crime of enslaving and abusing those children.

If is is looking at regular, legal porn, then I don't think there is any issue from a legal standpoint, although the survivor can get addicted to it.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141282 - 02/12/07 03:54 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: philobat]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I was watching a program today, and a psyche doc said it could be due to revisiting trauma, and it may be the only way of a survivor to relate to lost fragments by looking at similar events.

Trauma, means that we cannot resolve past hurt alone without looking at similar events to revisit the hurt that caused the
trauma in the first place.

We live in an evil world where they subject kids to rape etc for someones weird kick, and those who pay for it are helping keep
enslaving kids into having no future.

Its funny how Governments cannot even track down the ones who make and distribute it.
Some cant be caught but thousands could be if they really wanted to,

ste


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#141283 - 02/12/07 03:58 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: reality2k4]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Ste, could they use drawings or stories?

I was used in child porn and my perp used porn pictures of other kids to groom me, so I can't condone anyone using it; even if it is for good reasons, because of the poor kids that are being victimised. I will never forget the expressions on those kids' faces.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141289 - 02/12/07 05:25 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: Nobbynobs]
philobat Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/31/07
Posts: 293
Loc: California
Well, finally nobby and I share a similar experience as I too was used in kiddie porn. While I do not condone it and when it was presented to me by an ex, I ended up i the PTSD unit of a psych hospital.

My point is, there was a connection to it that I did not understand at the time. I became erect and repulsed at the same time and it was awful to have to have had that experience all alone and without any understanding at the time. I had blocked the experience out of my memory (which is common among us survivors).

I did not when viewing the porn in question even see the expressions. My subconscious mind kicked in and I became the child again.

Thank God, I found a therapist that explained to me what had happened on both medical and psycho logic and emotional levels that helped me to understand and thus remember my actual experience of being exploited as a child and thrust into porn.

I did not seek out this porn, but was exposed to it by a very evil person.

Personally, I do not ever want to see any kind of materials that exploit children. However, I do not want to condemn or judge a victim who has a reaction to it and is not yet in recovery long enough to understand their connection to it.

It is terribly sad how this type of exploitation is used to entice and entrap people in order to catch them.

It seems to me given all the news articles and sting operations, that molesters and perpetrators and enablers seem to know each other. Their habits are far different from abuse victims that have gotten caught in the loop of self victimization and self torture.

This is why the term pedophile must be defined in less broad terms as it currently is. The current definition is an adult interested in having sex with children. And since many abuse victims could fall into this category, if only to re connect with the abuse, which is far more common than not, there is a very big possibility that this "tuna" net is catching a few dolphins and I for one find that totally unacceptable.

To make a comment on here defining a victim as a molester because they were aroused by child porn while trying to self abuse and re victimize is very dangerous and I seriously question the recovery of someone who has been around long enough to know the difference.

Self-gratification by abusing a child is very different than connecting to a repressed memory. However the current definition of a pedophile does not distinguish any difference. I see this as pious arrogance and it is this kind of arrogance that brings survivors to continue to suffer in silence.

This is clearly black and white/all or nothing thinking at its worst.

I attempted suicide because I got an erection, I ended up in a hospital- So again I ask you, haven't I suffered enough? Because I got an erection I thought I might be the very monster that ruined my life?

Jesus, grow up, people and tell survivors that it is normal to connect to pornography, but in doing so can lead to behaviors and self abuse that can take years to undo.

Have the courage to tell your fellows because you have recovery, that connecting to porn because it is exploitive and they have been exploited is common reaction- and that to continue to connect to pornography will keep you in a state of re victimization and self abuse that enforces depression, mental health problems and isolation.

These are the reasons to avoid pornography of any kind because it objectifies sex and people... especially children.

-Philobat

P.S. ste, you have an excellent point about the producers of pornography. A very excellent point. Magazines like "Barely Legal" which are sold in convenience stores further serve to propagate a major problem. More people are turned on by this than one can fathom. There would be no supply if there were no demand.





Edited by philobat (02/12/07 05:28 PM)

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#141294 - 02/12/07 07:21 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: philobat]
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Philo,

If you were used in porn too, then you have my sympathy. It adds a terrible new dimension to the exploitation and betrayal caused by the abuse. Sometimes I wonder where all those pictures of me have ended up. I just pray that they weren't used to groom other kids, but since that was my perp's MO, I'm sure that they were.

However, I can't agree with you that survivors who use child porn are innocent. The origins of child porn are widely known, and anyone who uses it, for whatever reasons, is wrong.

That said, I can understand where you're coming from. A lot of guys are drawn to child porn for reasons that I agree come from their abuse. I also agree that I don't think they are setting out to exploit children when they view this material. I think most of them come into contact with it, usually over the internet, and then they look at it and it triggers some sort of response.

The thing that makes me nervous is if these guys don't get treatment for their abuse, or if they start actively pursuing child porn, then they are drifting further from "Acting out" and closer to "abusing children." I can't condone that.

Either way, one thing to keep in mind is that child porn is illegal. Even if a survivor obtains child porn for "innocent" reasons, he will still get busted by the police if he is caught with it, and he will be branded a child molester by the public. This may or may not be fair, but it is widely known that possession of child porn is illegal, so any survivors who obtain it are knowingly breaking the law.

And I am horrified by the "Barely Legal" magazines and by the whole Britney Spears schoolgirl thing. It is a terrible paradox that on one hand our society abhors sex with children, and on the other it sexualises children.

I'd be interested in Ken Singer's opinion on this.



Edited by Nobbynobs (02/12/07 07:22 PM)
_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#141307 - 02/12/07 08:49 PM Re: More research/child pornography [Re: Nobbynobs]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
We do not, as a rule, make exception for survivors who go on to abuse children, excusing them because their own abuse has confused them into thinking sex with children is OK, or created some sort of compulsion or pathological behavior in them. I will never be able to concede that consumers of child pornography are doing something that can be considered innocuous based on "certain circumstances". People try to seperate mere "downloading and collecting" of child pornography from other types of child abuse, by virtue of the fact that "it's just pictures" - a line I've heard way too many times. People who even insist that producers of child pornography should be jailed argue for leniency for the consumers, because the producers interact with "real children", and consumers "only have pictures". It used to make me ill; now, it just makes me very, very angry.

Kiddy porn was the larger part of my abuse. I do not have an easy time of relating to many people even in this place, whose purpose is to deal specifically with sexual abuse. I was not molested, I was not raped. I was not beaten or subject to physical violence, or even the threat of such. I was strung along - "talked into" doing what I did, by adults, and with a couple of other kids. And the worst part, in my opinion, and one that it still saddens me to this day to admit, is that I didn't shed a single tear at the time. If you see any of those videos, you won't see an unhappy kid, doing something he'd obviously rather not be doing. No, the pain, guilt, shame, all that stuff didn't come until later, some time after the abuse ended. At the time, it was all just a big game. Let's ham it up for the camera.

Be all that as it may; the abusive aspect of child pornography does not end when the camera turns off. I cannot say for absolute certain that the videos I'm in are still circulating, or ever even entered circulation. But there's a very good chance, and that's more than enough. It's not even a matter of a "select group of buyers" these days - sure, those stories are the ones that make CNN; but the larger number of consumers of this stuff trade it for free online, the same way people illegally share music. This stuff is EVERYWHERE, and ANYBODY can get it whenever they want. Think about it - thousands of people all over the world are still watching me do those things, while my naive, smiling face convinces them that it's all just fine by me. Those of you who were shown child porn, and are haunted by the faces - imagine how confused you would've been made, if those faces showed kids apparently having a good old time. How many children out there have I managed to "seduce" in this way? How would that make YOU feel?

Well, that's my cross to bear. I am not responsible, and I do realize that. But it saddens me tremendously, even still. And my videos were made some 16 years ago, but it does not matter - anyone who watches them is grossly violating my privacy and sexually exploiting me, in the here and now. It's not just pictures. That is my face, and my body. I am a real person. I am not a figment of someone's fantasy.

So it is true, I hold, for ALL child pornography. People who download child pornography are sexually exploiting the children whose images appear on them. And there can never, ever be any excuse for sexually exploiting a child. Not even if you are a survivor.

My God - particularly not if you are a survivor!




Edited by melliferal (02/12/07 08:52 PM)
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Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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