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#83503 - 02/01/06 01:33 PM This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
http://www.mirror.co.uk

Paedo let off after jury numbers error
by Mark Smith

A man found guilty of sexually abusing a four-year-old girl had his conviction quashed yesterday after an appeal court ruled too many women were on the trial jury.

John Brown, 50, was jailed for two years after a jury of 12 women and three men found him guilty of indecent offences against the girl from age four to nine.

Brown's legal team called for the trial at Glasgow's Sheriff Court to be postponed until there was a full panel of 60 jurors to choose from. On the day there were just 22 jurors available - 15 women and seven men.

Brown's team argued that the trial would be unfair because of the selection and make-up of the jury.

But judge Sheriff Andrew Normand rejected their motion and Brown, from Glasgow, was found guilty of lewd, indecent and libidinous practices on 14 January 2004. He was placed on the Sex Offender's Register and spent a period in prison before being released on interim bail pending the outcome of his appeal.

Yesterday three appeal court judges at Perth Sheriff Court overturned the ruling. Lord Gill, Lord Justice Clerk, said: "The ballot was unsatisfactory and the sheriff should have recognised that."

But the decision sparked fury last night, with SNP Justice spokesman Kenny MacAskill saying: "This smacks of political correctness gone mad."

The Crown can lodge an appeal against the ruling.

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83504 - 02/01/06 02:27 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
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Whoa, what next!
The crown should have a right to a retrial also.

Two years is a small sentence for ruining this girls life, but what do judges know.

I dont think the people will let this one go,

ste

I could not find that story in the link!

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#83505 - 02/01/06 02:48 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK

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#83506 - 02/01/06 03:19 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Ha,
the Crown can ask for a retrial.

"The judges quashed the guilty verdict, but granted a request by the Crown to bring a fresh prosecution against Mr Brown".

The crown could not appeal the ruling made by four judges, but can go for retrial, they already have the evidence from before, so it would only be the cost of a new trial.

He may even be awarded a stiffer sentence,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#83507 - 02/01/06 05:04 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
That's the trick of the whole thing. By asking for a retrial the guy could end up spending even more time in jail. \:\)

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#83508 - 02/01/06 05:31 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Larry

Very true, other reports have suggested that this guys human rights were infringed yet again.

I wish they would take our human rights as seriously.

Kirk

"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83509 - 02/01/06 05:46 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think we should put the human rights issue to one side, the laws enshrined in it are ones that we need to keep our privacy etc.

He would have argued that his trial was not fair under human rights law, the judges would have had to uphold and enshrine an individuals right to have a fair trial.

The Government is obliged by these laws which are above our own laws, but that can be good rather than bad.

If enough of the abuse victims got together, they could push for better care and help to keep them employed, free drugs and better treatment than is available today - very little,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#83510 - 02/01/06 06:02 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Ste

"I think we should put the human rights issue to one side".

Why?


ARTICLE 3
No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Im talking about the inhuman and degrading treatment.

"the laws enshrined in it are ones that we need to keep our privacy etc."

Yeah? You try reciting that when you have a load of journalists on your doorstep, believe me its the furthest thing from your mind

If its good for the goose its good for the gander.

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83511 - 02/01/06 07:26 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk, Ste,

This exchange is useful and confronts me with a real dilemma. Surely the rights of the individual are important; when these are violated that is the thin edge of the wedge and bad news for all of us.

I just have trouble with this when it comes to abusers - and not because I am a survivor. The point is that child abuse is a serial crime and perps often have large numbers of victims.

So the question is this: Are the rights of an individual to be overthrown or encroached upon if the welfare of (probably) many children is at stake?

Just throwing that out onto the table.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#83512 - 02/01/06 08:12 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Larry

I posted some figures for my original abuser Chris Denning a few threads back but here they are again.

He was first convicted and jailed in Germany for distrbuting porn in 1958. I was introduced to him in 1970 and his routine was in full flow. When I was visiting him he was "entertaining" three boys (at the very least) a day. Invaribly when I turned up there would be one there and when I left there would be another who had just arrived. I am hopeless at maths but breaking it down to raw figures, it goes something like this.
We are talking possible offences here:

365 x 3 = 1095
1970 - 2006 = 36 years
36 x 1095 = 39,420

Even taking away time spent in prsion that still works out to apprx 37,000 offences. If he was succesful with only 50% of his victims that means around 18000 boys that could be walking around damaged. I know of one possible suicide because of Dennings actions, how may more have died by bottle, needle or rope?

Now I am collating figures from 1970 I suspect he was very much active in 1958.

And his defence team are arguing that HIS human rights have been infringed.

Something is seriously wrong somewhere.

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83513 - 02/01/06 08:26 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk,

Quote:
Something is seriously wrong somewhere.
Especially, assuming I am reading you and Ste correctly, if the "system" is only interested in convictions of criminals and not the rights and welfare of their victims.

If more charges in a case are refused because "that won't add to the punishment" when the guy is convicted, then doesn't that mean that the victims who had come forward are being abandoned to fend for themselves?

In the midst of all the reviews for the Perp of Pop, where are the reviews of what his victims need?

Oops, I guess that would be too expensive.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#83514 - 02/01/06 09:17 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Larry,

victims tend to not have the energy to think their rights have been violated.
Lawyers do!

In a country were our basic rights are being eroded by Government law which can violate rights, then we can be in serious trouble.

We are on the cutting edge of technology which can increasingly encroach our rights as citizens, then the human rights laws are necessary.

You may not know it, but agencies collate information from a vast number of sources and cross match databases, so you may apply for a mortgage and be refused.

An insurance company may refuse cover because they demand you send a sample of DNA so they can evaluate the risk.

Think of the increasing encroachment of basic liberties. It stops authority stomping over us for little reason, and it gives us rights to information held on us.

We cannot refuse to embrace human rights, when ours may be encroached in the future.
Every court in the land has to be clued up on human rights legislation.

I am not defending perps, but they do have human rights, the abused dont seem to, I know that from when I was a kid, whats new,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#83515 - 02/01/06 09:52 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
The authorities have plenty on me I have a criminal record that goes back to 1976 and my medical records are as thick as War and Peace, they can erode my civil liberties as much as they like, they have done that already. The CPS are not interested in Justice for the victim they are instructed by government to convict with the least amount of money spent, thats why my stomach turns whenever I hear these words "It will not be in the public interest" that means they do not want to spend the money, believe me I know that for a fact its happened to me twice.

I dont beliveve that CPS barristers are crap David Jeremy QC who was prosecution counsel in the King trial was up against one if not the most verbally aggressive/destructive/upsetting (when cross examining) barrister in the buisness. Ronald Thwaites QC. As the police said after his conviction "King could afford the best legal defence in the country and he got it".

And as for perps human rights they will not be having any from me if they ever touched any of my grandchildren.....period.

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83516 - 02/02/06 10:40 AM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Kirk,

I echo your sentiment, and yes we are never seen as victims by anybody in society.
We are victimised subtly or directly by everyone we meet whether at work or by authorities.

The difference between having a good barrister is this.

You too could find a good barrister who is better than the cps barrister, but he will not tell lies for you, but you are not there to tell lies.

If you have money, you can employ a barrister who can twist evidence and lie for you.
They can even blindside judges too.

The law is there to serve the interest of the people, when the law is twisted around to suit the interest of time and money, then it is an ass.

It will hurt me loads if he gets away with this, it will hurt every kid who lives in silence, it will hit you most, let us just hope others come forward and seal the lid.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#83517 - 02/02/06 10:41 AM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk,

Quote:
And as for perps human rights they will not be having any from me if they ever touched any of my grandchildren.....period.
Your comment reminds me of one of the first things my Dad said when I disclosed to him in November. He asked if the perp is still alive, and when I said no his comment was: "Good thing for him."

Ste I agree that human rights have to be defended as a matter of principle. I just have difficulty applying that to someone who has never shown any respect for the human rights of children - and sometimes lots of children.

I really don't know how to sort this one out. I feel I see both sides clearly but can't work through the impasse.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#83518 - 02/02/06 11:09 AM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Ste

"The law is there to serve the interest of the people, when the law is twisted around to suit the interest of time and money, then it is an ass".

I am afraid you are wrong the law is there to serve the interest of the state that is why you see on legal document Regina V "Whoever" and not McIntyre V King. A crime is not committed against an individual it is committed against the state.

Until that changes we are collectively up sh*t creek without a paddle. And I cant see that changing, not in my lifetime anyway.

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83519 - 02/02/06 02:55 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk,

Quote:
A crime is not committed against an individual it is committed against the state.
Isn't this the case with criminal law in general? The State prosecutes because an offense has been committed against its criminal law code. The victim may testify in some cases, but in legal terms the injured party is the State.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#83520 - 02/02/06 04:55 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Yes exactly laws serve the state.
They can use laws to tell people what to do, and how to live.

Governments talk of 'choice', and 'freedom', then erode it with bad laws.
These two words dont mean anything at all to me, but they do to the sheep.

A guy hailed a black cab in London, he asked the driver, can I see the bail of hay?
The guy says, I demand to see the bale of hay!

He then summoned a constable who duly locked the cab driver up, and he had to appear before magistrates.

The magistrates decided that a full tank of diesel constituted the same as a bale of hay.

The guy had proven that this law existed today, it was eventually out of statute.

Yes we do need human rights laws, they protect all of us, even the inhuman beasts.

If this perp has a retrial and goes down again for a longer sentence, then he will probably say his human rights were breached because of the more lenient sentence he got in the first place.

Getting back to King, I hope it smashes in his face as other guys come forward, as he is a serial pedo, I have no doubt he still is, but the police will be giving him loads of attention.

His arrogance will want the police off his case, to let him keep doing it.

On the case of denning, Kirk, you mention all of those boys being hurt, but how many came forward to nail him!
You can use that as a yardstick to the scale of keeping silent.

The present law gives a maximum of life in prison for the rape of a child, give denning life, nah, he will get 5/7 years max.

There is a new initiative called the judges toolbox which is designed to give judges greater thought on what the victims have been through.

It guides judges to what the sentence should be, why cant it guide politicians???
A politicians toolbox would be great, but it would be full of rusty tools,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#83521 - 02/02/06 06:02 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
"On the case of denning, Kirk, you mention all of those boys being hurt, but how many came forward to nail him!"

I was exactly like them for thirty plus years so I cannot condem them for keeping quiet it is the stigma and the system that keeps you quiet, for me it was anothe breakdown and attempted suicide that caused me to disclose, if that had not have happened I doubt very much if I would have come forward. But even now that I know better with all the faults of the system I would still disclose. I just wish i could tell those guys that life is som much better when the secret is out, well it is in my case. You find out who your real friends are .... as for the others they can go fuck themselves.

We have no option but to go down the political road even if we are given rusty tools.

I would like to call myself an activist but that word can drum up all types of images, usually unlawful ones and we cant fight the law on this only thelaw makers.

Kirk
"Lest take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"


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#83522 - 02/02/06 06:17 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
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Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk,

I think you're right. It's a waste of our energy to try to fight the law as such - the target has to be the people who make and implement law.

I like that image of rusty tools Ste. But if that's what we have then that's what we have to use.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#83523 - 02/02/06 06:18 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
"well it is in my case. You find out who your real friends are .... as for the others they can go fuck themselves".

I disclosed when it happened, kept quiet since, so it is a case of thinking of your own mental protection.

I watched a very interesting programme on channel four about one sane judge.

There was a serial pedo praying on boys, he got through thousands, and it caused a massive crime wave through portsmouth.

The programme followed these men as they are today, they were so friendly but also so hurt and isolated.

They all narrated about what happened to the ones who did not get through.

The judge said he showed great leniency on finding a man before him who was abused by this beast.
He may have been a serial criminal or druggy.

The judge directed that they get the best help authorities could find, to give them a fresh start and not end up in jail.

The pedo cost the government millions in crime caused by these 'boys' who went out of control, why waste more millions jailing them instead of helping them.

Makes sense to me, we need more judges like him,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#83524 - 02/02/06 07:27 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Ste

I suspect you are talking about the "Panorama" program "A one man crime wave" about the Plymouth based paedophile William Goad and the enlightened judge was Judge William Taylor. I have recently spoken with one of Goads survivors who is featured on that program and he agrees with the rest of us that we need more judges like Judge Taylor who formed the link between habitual crime (to support an addiction) and childhood sexual abuse.

TRIGGER WARNING - Thanks ste
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4237355.stm

I think the thing that blew me away in that program was a comment by Judge Taylor that went something like this "Why am I seeing the same old faces before me time and time again" and then it clicked when Goad came before him as the witnesses were the "same old faces". I'd like to shake that man by the hand.

There is a complete section about Goad and his survivors on Shys site and she remembers the guy that didnt make it.

TRIGGER WARNING
http://www.phoenixsurvivors.com/Goad.html

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83525 - 02/02/06 07:39 PM Re: This is British Justice
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Kirk,

it was only by chance I watched that, I may still have it somewhere on disc.

"Why am I seeing the same old faces before me time and time again"

I even forgot it was panorama, I guessed it was Goad but could not be sure.

That video would make a great presentation to politicians and the judiciary alike.
Judge Taylor was a very kind considerate judge, with forward thinking.

ste

Triggers*********

Anybody who reads about what he really did takes a risk of massive triggers.

He also had a van and got boys anywhere he could so his crimewave will be massive...
I cant look at his face but he is in a life of pure Hell for his entire life...

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#83526 - 02/03/06 03:53 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
What troubles me most about Goad is that he was convicted three times previously - and each time he got a suspended sentence and was back in business.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#83527 - 02/03/06 05:23 PM Re: This is British Justice
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
Larry

And one of the judges at his appeal hearing said "Goad also did an immense amount of good in the community", thats how he got his hands on some of the boys through his "charity" work.

How misguided is that?

Kirk
"Lets take this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit" - Kirk


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#83528 - 02/03/06 07:02 PM Re: This is British Justice
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Kirk,

I don't usually go for this vocab so much, BUT...that judge is a fucking moron. Period.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
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