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#78307 - 03/29/06 03:39 PM The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Quote:
It is possible to take our existence as a "sacred world," to take this place as open space rather than claustrophobic dark void. It is possible to take a friendly relationship to our ego natures, it is possible to appreciate the aesthetic play of forms in emptiness, and to exist in this place like majestic kings of our own consciousness. But to do that, we would have to give up grasping to make everything come out the way we daydream it should. So, suffering is caused by ignorance or ignorant grasping, or suffering exaggerated by ignorance or ignorant grasping and clinging to our notion of what we thing should be, is what causes the "suffering of suffering." The suffering itself is not so bad, it's the resentment against suffering that is the real pain.
By Allen Ginsberg, Tricycle: The Buddhist Review, Vol. II, #1


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#78308 - 03/29/06 04:48 PM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I guess what one makes of Ginsberg's view would depend on what one takes suffering to be.

The idea of suffering that works for me is pretty close to what we find in modern ideas of tragedy and in works like Archibald MacLeish's Pulitzer-Prize-winning play J.B., where what makes the hero heroic is his determination to stand by what he believes in and carry on defiantly even in a hopeless situation. When it is said that the hero is suffering, what that means is that he has been pushed to the absolute limit and has no answers to his questions about why all this is happening to him.

That idea of suffering as a human emotional reaction to a terrible situation seems to be what Ginsberg talks about when he refers to the "suffering of suffering". I'm not a great fan of Ginsberg, and here I don't go along with his idea that:

Quote:
suffering is caused by ignorance or ignorant grasping.
I would rather see suffering as a unique and uplifting dimension of our humanity. Suffering has to do with an insistence to stand firm by our beliefs and insist that we have done nothing to deserve the disaster that has befallen us. Suffering places an ordinary person in a position to be heroic, simply by refusing to give up, despite the odds, and insisting on moving ahead because that is what he is all about, not because he has a promise of results.

Just some thoughts along other lines Curtis. Thanks for posting this.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#78309 - 03/31/06 02:41 AM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Somebody's gonna have to interpret that one for me Curtis. It's too deep for my peasant mind to wrap itself around! \:\)

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#78310 - 04/03/06 05:58 PM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Well so rightly put, Pain is what we get and suffering is what we create out of it, thru our mental indulgence and non acceptance.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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#78311 - 04/03/06 07:55 PM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Haha,

It's too deep for my peasant mind to wrap itself around! \:\)

This peasant also has trouble with deep stuff too.

There are two sides to my mind, they are distinct rather than the other sides that are not so distinct.

One side is the deeply empathic kid, who just wants everything to be the way it should be in his life.

The other is the adult who has to control the darkness from past events, he also has to control living today and into the future.

I guess they end up fighting now and again, like waves of emotion.
I get so depressed with the latter, so I try and hold back from there,

true peasant mind,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#78312 - 04/04/06 06:31 AM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Thanks Morning Star. To be honest, I had a pretty good idea what the meaning was, and I quite agree. We extend our own misery through short sightedness at times.

I hope no one took offense at my light hearted poke at Curtis' post. It's just I guess I'm too blessed lazy to try to work stuff like that out when it could have been said and understood so much more easily if put succinctly.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#78313 - 04/04/06 06:57 AM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
From John's post:

Quote:
We extend our own misery through short sightedness at times.
Sure, that's true I think. But I would urge that we not draw a connection between this and suffering. The latter is what WE do when, insisting that we were not to blame, we then have to confront what happened to us with no answers to the why questions, no explanation of the hurt, and move forward with no real idea of what we are doing at first, except rejecting the terrible situation we are already in.

THAT is what makes recovery a heroic enterprise right from the start. We all comment on how difficult recovery and healing are. Why should we deny the huge investment of emotional resources and courage that we are making every day?

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#78314 - 04/04/06 08:01 AM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Larry,

I agree. I think what I was referring to is the sort of thing I catch myself doing if I'm not careful and that is just plain old feeling sorry for myself 'cuz I like it. I can boohoo around for hours over something before I finally catch myself and get down to the business facing what the real problem is and dealing with it instead of just feeling sorry for myself for the sake of feeling sorry for myself. It has taken me a while to learn the difference.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#78315 - 04/06/06 02:08 PM Re: The Suffering Itself Is Not So Bad
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
u said it so well, john the pleasure of feeling sorry for myself, was so addictive, like when some one hurts me I like to jump on to the victim bandwagon, instead of using that as a learning expeereince and waste precious hours, but now I am learning to catch myself, wait! what is it here that I have to learn. Especially if it is a repeptitive experince, that is when I need to ask why do I need to reexpeereince it again , what did I miss the last time. Mostly I learn to stand up from myself.

I am learning.

Then I say, I have learnt so much from my abuse and acting out that this seems like small pittance. And then I say, well I could handle that and I can handle this as well. ;\)

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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