Newest Members
dspwilson, Won'tGiveUp, sillyputty, Pytbull, manipulated
12384 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Alan Fountain (52), blindpet (31), egoror (49), Midas (33), uwa (78)
Who's Online
3 registered (traveler, woodenshoes, 1 invisible), 29 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12384 Members
74 Forums
63649 Topics
444527 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#77884 - 08/31/05 03:55 PM Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
I'm wondering if anyone here subscribes to Buddhist practice. I find a great deal of comfort in the teachings of Buddha, not unlike the teachings of Christ. Unfortunately, Christ and Christianity are too closely related to Catholicism for me since I was brought up in the Catholic church.

But it's not only that...Buddhism is much more simplified, more tolerant of other faiths and less stringent in its teachings. I like the idea of Karma and the possibility of coming back to this life. I like the idea that if I live a good life this time around then the next time will be even better.

Just thought I throw this out there and see what type, if any, responses I might get. Peace - John


Top
#77885 - 09/02/05 09:25 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Sinking,

I find Buddha's teaching very profound, and I am always drawn to them. Yet, they are simple. They taught me how to just be, and a quiet mind is a wonderful thing too.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77886 - 09/07/05 02:16 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
I'm really into it and I'm glad I found something that works for me. I like how rather then promise reward or punishment for doing “right” or “wrong”, the idea is that you will simply be a happy person if you live your life in a beneficial way.

It has really helped me throw away my anger and helped me deal with everyday issues… I can’t remember the last time I got angry.


Top
#77887 - 09/07/05 03:49 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Seeker - A quiet mind is something I might never achieve, although I once approached it at one of the 2 or 3 Yoga classes I attended. I should go again.

Curtis - The anger thing has worked well for me too. I can't remember the last time I flipped the bird at someone in traffic \:\) And when my wife and I have a spat, I think it makes her more angry that I don't go for the bait so quickly anymore. I react much more calmly and rationally than I have in the past.

Always keeping these practices in mind though is a practice unto itself. Peace - John


Top
#77888 - 09/08/05 09:57 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
One thing I found really helpful is the Buddhist realization that all things change. I once read a piece that said that within a single second the molecular and subatomic matter of all things, including the human body is changing. Nothing lasts forever. I found this concept truly comforting in many ways - pain will not last, even when it seems so for one. For another, I am a new person whether I realize it or not, every second.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77889 - 09/11/05 11:03 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Seeker - That has done a great deal for me too, in the sense of living more peacefully within myself. Everything is transient; material things, happiness, sadness, pain, suffering, joy, loved ones, life itself. By accepting this, and I haven't got it perfected just yet, I am able to let go of trivial things much easier now and I see things not-so-trivial as much more trivial now.

I also like the belief that every act I make effects others and how they act and on and on and on. It makes me stop and think for a minute about how to handle any given situation. Thanks for sharing. Hope your day is a good one, every day. - John


Top
#77890 - 09/30/05 01:58 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
I'll take the more tolerant and peaceful parts. I guess I mean more tolerance for me, being more tolerant of me.
It's interesting that the big three, Moslem, Christian and the Jewish faiths all teach not only tolerance but love and compassion for the stranger, the traveler on the road.
We must keep our eyes open, and our hearts as well.

Positive thread, John, thank you for starting it.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

Top
#77891 - 10/01/05 12:03 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Hi David - Funny thing I've noticed about the big three is that they seem to be less tolerant of others...not other individuals, but other faiths.

They all teach that if you do not follow their teachings you will perish in Hell (been there, done that). But Buddhist thought teaches the exact opposite. In fact, Buddhism was never intended to be a religion at all.

A book I'm reading right now is called Buddhism Without Beliefs. Basically, the author explains that Buddha found enlightenment one day and decided to show the path to enlightenment to others. And that path is really very simple.

Like the big three, the message is similar: Be a good person. Be good to yourself and others. Be good to the Earth, etc. But he never taught that if you did not follow his path you would perish in an eternal flame, only that you would not enjoy the enlightenment that he found to be so peaceful. I like that. Cuz if I believed those other guys I would be headed south immediately after my last breath. Done my time in Hell, done my time in Hell (forget what song it's from but it always hit home for me). Wishing you (and me) Peace and Enlightenment - John


Top
#77892 - 10/03/05 09:02 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Hey John,

I think Bhuddism is special that way. I don't really consider it a religion as much as a guide to happiness during your time on Earth. I have a poster of the wheel of life in my office, and I can look at it when things get hectic and know that "this too shall pass" as all things are transient by there nature. It seems like Western religion teaches that if you are a good person, you'll go to heaven someday where Bhuddism teaches that if you are a good person you can experience heaven now in your daily life. What an idea!

So, peace and enlightenment to you as well.

Thanks,
John

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77893 - 10/04/05 01:12 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Someome brought us this to us some time ago:

"The religious worry about going to Hell,
the spiritual have already been there."

I would think that we have more spiritual guys here than we do of the religious kind.

Although, some philosophers believe that we can't have one, spiritual, without the other, the religious, for us to keep order and make sense out of the spiritual.

Do I know what I'm talking about??

I'm afraid I come down on the side of someone who is more spiritual than religious.

Again, thanks, John.

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

Top
#77894 - 10/04/05 06:47 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
As a child, I went to a Church of God and prayed for a better life constantly. But it didn't happen, the abuse at home and the SA kept happening. I went to a Catholic church too. Taking philosophy in college challenged my faith, as did a terrible childhood. Eastern religion and philosophy made more sense. Western religion seems to conflict with itself too often, where Buddhism does not.

I do think you the religious and the spiritual interconnected for sure. How do you understand one without having the other for reference point.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77895 - 10/04/05 09:54 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Seeker - I don't understand your question fully but would like to ponder it, please rephrase it so I can dig into the depths of my unending wisdom and then shower it upon you all \:\)

You know, I was brought up Catholic, never bought into it though. I met a woman, a school bus driver when I was about 12, during the abuse, though she did not know. She was Born Again, gave me my own bible, talked to me about her happiness and relationship with God. I must have prayed 18,000 times for Jesus to come into my soul, my life. I was in so much pain, didn't know why at the time. My parents hated me, I'd been sent off to a horror house masquerading as a residential school. At twelve I was ready to kill myself. I prayed and prayed and prayed and her God and her Jesus never came. I gave up on god then because he gave up on me long before. Eastern thought, Buddhist teaching makes one responsible for their own happiness. You don't need to look to a higher power. You only need to look inside yourself to know what's right and then practice that way of being.

Here is a poem I wrote a year or so ago about my thoughts on god:

Will anything ease this perpetual ache?
How many lifetimes will it take?
A God above, who loves us all,
Can’t possibly exist.
When it comes to watching over me,
He’s on a perpetual coffee break.


Top
#77896 - 10/05/05 03:08 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Hey John,

I think that even if a person is spiritual, that it can have limited meaning or experience without having running such ideas and thoughts against traditional religious concepts. Personally, I considered myself spiritual rather than truly religious (I take from religious teachings what I find valuable and fits my phiosophical leanings). Possibly folks are spiritual without ever bumping up against religion, but often it is man's search for God, meaning in life, and his place in the universe that gets us there I think. I did once have Native American quote, Chief Joseph I think, that said, "We don't want the white man's relgion because they will teach us to argue." The many flavors of Christianity make his point.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77897 - 10/07/05 07:19 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
It saddens me when I see people give up on Christianity (I'm in seminary, so I've got a vested interest)...but it saddens me more when one has been abused by those who proclaim the faith. We learn from SA that sex is bad, that our bodies are bad, etc. We learn from healing that this is not the truth. When a religious person abuses someone the abused person puts the religion in there too. But sex is not bad, bodies are not bad, and Christianity is not bad either.

It's funny we're studying the whole "I'm spiritual but not religous" argument in class now. I'm not sure I understand that stance, but I used to say it myself. I too rejected Christianity for a while. I used to wonder where God was when I was in trouble. I went through years of depression and sorrow wondering how and why He would let something happen to me. But, God gives us all free will (our perps too), so He won't necessarily stop things from happening (and God hears the cries of the innocent). We live in a world that has suffering in it (even Buddhism teaches that). Suffering is unavoidable. What God will do, though, is give us the strength to carry on and the courage to heal. He also shared our suffering. He knows our pain. If you're a Christian, you know that in the flesh he took on all the sorrow and pain of the world into Himself on the Cross and began the healing process then and there and took that to the throne of God the Father and sat on His right side. All our frailty our woes our sorrows. He has taken on Himself and shares with us. That may sound like bull to you, but there it is. I am alive today because of God. I am sure of that. I have known the love of God. He's there. There is a lot of good in Buddhism, but in the end you are left with just yourself, it seems to me. I need others to love and to love me and the ultimate Other is God, who is not impersonal, but very very personal. For simplicity, I read the Desert Fathers.

This next part is not an attack, just an observation:

I hear many people reject one faith for another because it's more tolerant...but they then claim the new faith is better and list how bad the old faith was/is. I suppose that's human nature...but it's just the other side of the same coin.

I hope this did not sound angry at all. I'm not. I'm just concerned and saddened. I wouldn't judge Buddhism by acts which violate the tenets of Buddhism. History records many instances of Christians who act against their teaching; and Buddhists have done the same.

Please, however you find it, be at peace with yourself and with others, but remember, the Kingdom is within.

Forgive me if I anger or hurt you. That is not my intention at all.

Peace,
Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77898 - 10/07/05 02:33 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Phillip - I've not given up on Christianity. I believe Christ walked the earth and I believe he taught good lessons. I have, however, given up on Catholicism, long, long ago. Yet I am very in touch with Catholicism through my in-laws who are devoted to their faith but also see the desperate need for change in that religion, in the church, at the Vatican.

And yes, you have angered me, but that does not make us enemies. Your argument about free will is garbage. Where was my free will while I was being raped by a former Marine when I was nine years old? Or when I was five and six and seven and older and my father was on top of me beating the hell out of me? Where is the free will of unborn children who are being murdered every day because they are inconvenient?

You say that your God gives us the strength to carry on and heal. Have you not heard of all the poor, abused souls who end their suffering by ending their lives? Where was your God then?

You say suffering is unavoidable, this is true. You then say "even Buddhism teaches that". Even Buddhism? That statement alone is a slight to those of us who find comfort there.

You say there is a lot of good in Buddhism but Buddhism leaves us alone in the end. Why do you feel it necessary to insult Buddhism? Because that is what you're doing with that statement. What religion doesn't leave us alone in the end? I have loved ones, wife, daughter, siblings, parents, in-laws and friends. But as I take my last breath I will be alone, same as the day I got here, same as I spent many, many years in my suffering. Your God left me alone in those times. If he has taken on and shares my suffering, as you say, I've felt little, if any, relief.

Finally, I don't look to Buddhism as a religion or even a faith. It is a way of life. A constant practice of trying to better one's self and what could possibly be wrong with that?

With Respect for you and your faith - John


Top
#77899 - 10/07/05 03:30 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Sorry Philip, but I agree with John (Sinking), although I am not angry as I don't allow myself that feeling very often. Buddhism doesn't teach that you are alone, it teaches that all things are interconnected in a web of life. It does teach that you must find your own way through life's pitfalls as the "answers are in you." That doesn't mean there can be no fellowship. I believe Christ walked too, and did good works. It is the son of God part where my faith was broken. In many instances, I think organized religion teaches intolerance and presupposes that the beliefs of one group/person are better than the beliefs of another group/person based upon the "true faith". Personally, I believe only a few things. There is a God who created life. Watching the birth of my first child convinced me that this isn't just chance or basic biology. Second, we are small feeble creatures that give ourselves much more credit than we should, not inherently bad creatures as Western religion teaches, but inherently good as Eastern religions teach. But, I think we are small, and we use a fraction of our brains and are therefore incapable of understanding or conceiving what God really is wihout some references to our feeble selves. The "in his image" part I later found to be rather conceited. I don't try to answer the questions of what is God, or the meaning of life, or what happens when we die. I think the truth is that we will not know in this existence, and it is fruitless to argue about it. People fighting in the name of God have killed many others that only God could create. Why does that make sense? I try to respect life, and do the best I can not to harm others or myself while navigating life's pitfalls and leave it at that. In anything else, I have no faith. People have said that this is taking the easy way out, but I think it is harder to believe you will not know these things than to latch on to something in faith that cannot be proven or fully understood. But, hey, that is just me. However, I certainly give you (or anyone else) the leeway to believe whatever you wish if is brings you comfort. At the end of day, we will all find out what the ride was all about because I think that is when you get the travel brochures, and not before.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77900 - 10/07/05 07:26 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
John,
Sorry to cause any pain, but I should point out that most of the posts here were becoming more and more anti-Christian (re-read them). I will say it was my faith that got me through this stuff, so in a way I felt my way of life was being attacked. Sorry. However, I think you misunderstood my statement about free will. I wanted to emphasize that the perp was abusing your free will in exercising his own. That is sinful and evil on the perp's part. That the strong often abuse the weak is a fact of a fallen world, but the existence of free will, utlimately, leaves that possibilty open. That God can help us cope and come to peace and heal, I have found to be true. Whether you believe in karma or God's justice, though, sometimes the recompense of one's actions are not going to be in this lifetime. by that I mean there are people who do evil but seemingly get away with it.

In the end, God isn't to be understood. He is to be experienced. I will say though that I am not a Western Christian, but an Eastern one. The way of the Eastern Christianity is not a "religion" (as I think people use that term) or a "faith" (faith is what you have in someone) it too is a complete spiritual way of life that is only understood within one's life when the entire arc of the life is looked upon. Why did God "let" my brother rape me? Why did I feel abandoned for so long? All I know is that I'm alive now because of Christ. There are others, as you say, who ended their lives in despair. I believe in a merciful loving God who can give those souls peace, though suicide is not ultimately the answer according to my path. I believe God takes into account the evil done to those precious souls and takes them in His embrace.

I'm sorry you have lost your faith in God, and I feel nothing I say can change that. There is still a lot of anger there (understandably so from our perspective) and you are not willing to listen to what I have to say...and that's OK. You may change your mind someday, or you may not. That's up to you. I'm not trying to change you, one can only change himself. I did not mean that in this life you would not have interconnected relations; by "in the end you will have just yourself," I meant that you will not have any god to be in relation to, which for me is the ultimate Connection and Relationship. I was reacting, actually, to what you wrote:

"You don't need to look to a higher power. You only need to look inside "

Seeker,
The Eastern Church does not teach that we are inherently bad, by the way. We do not teach an inherited guilt or utter depravity as Augustine taught, but rather that we have inherited mortality and the consequences of the sins of others which keep building up. We have inherited a world, that by our choices, has made it easier to harm than to heal. My last post was a clumsy example of that. My words were not meant to anger, and yet they did. My good intentions were not taken as such.

But to both of you I wish peace and healing, but remind you that your words can hurt as can mine. Please forgive me for any harm I have done with my clumsy words.

I'm not much of a Buddhist scholar, I will admit. Forgive my ignorance. I did spend some time, a long time ago, with the tao-te-ching (philosophy not religion) and the Stoics(Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus). There is a lot that is good there, too. Both of them led me ultimately back to Christ, though.

Peace,
Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77901 - 10/07/05 10:09 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Philip,

I am not angry. I think God is where you find him. In terms of experiencing God, I raised myself (family never attended) in a charismatic Church of God and the Catholic Church (two extremes in my experience). My thoughts on these topics are surely too lengthy to enter into here, but all experience is relative to the filters through which we infallible humans take them in and process. I was moved by the spirit in a church, but also alone in the woods and in a hospital delivery room. That is my experience, and nobody else. To each their own. I don't feel attacked by your words, as they are just words. What I choose to do with or feel about them is the important thing.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77902 - 10/07/05 11:12 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
Shalom, my brother.

\:\)

Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77903 - 10/07/05 11:34 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Seeker is, obviously, more evolved than I am when he reads your words Phillip. Maybe anger is too strong of a word. I guess I don't appreciate being preached to and I feel you are doing that here.

I'm not arguing that one way of being is better than another, necessarily. I'm saying Buddhism works better for me than the religion I was brought up in which is Catholicism.

You assume I am angry with your god. Since I don't believe in a higher power, there is no one for me to be angry with in that sense. I am angry with the people who hurt me, the grown men who exercised their free will, as you say. I am angry that I was taught, as a child, to believe in an all loving god who would protect me. And, once that failed, I was told he would save me from my torment. I put my faith there. I BELIEVED. I prayed and begged and, it turned out, I wasted a hell of a lot of time doing that. It would have been better for me to have turned to drugs and alcohol sooner. At the age of twelve, during the second round of an adult exercising his free will against a child, I was suicidal, even earlier than that. Where was the love from god then, while I was trying to push a steak knife through my breast bone? I suppose he saved me by not making me strong enough to actually succeed...that, however, did nothing to take the pain away.

It does irk me when you say I am not willing to listen to you. Is that because I don't agree with your words? Because I read them more than once. I do understand what you're saying. And part of what you're saying indicates that you think I need to change
Quote:
I'm not trying to change you, one can only change himself.
. Is that what you're saying? If so, why? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like to hear your answers.

I have not turned my back on Christ, I think I said this earlier. I believe in Christ and his teachings. I actually consider myself to be Christian in the sense that I act in a Christian way. That does not contradict following the Buddhist principles, however, they work quite nicely together. But I do not subscribe to any formal religion or organized religion.

You seem indifferent to others' points of view and I don't understand that either. Wouldn't Christ teach tolerance? I don't claim to be a Buddhist scholar, far from it. I can barely pronounce most of the words. But the word I can make out bring me comfort. I'm not sure why you'd suggest that I change that, especially considering the fact that I am exercising my free will and not doing anything to harm others. Thanks for listening - John


Top
#77904 - 10/08/05 12:24 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
John,
Sorry if you felt preached at. I've been in "Seminary/Grad School" mode for 8 hours a day 7 days a week for the past two months (the school's in a monastery) and I guess it's showing. I wasn't preaching...just trying to defend against some very negative and angry comments made against my faith and God. Any change I desired was that you might not write so disparagingly (or feel so)about, as you put it "her God and her Jesus (or as you put it to me "Your God"). You also called my thoughts garbage. Just to let you know, those are pretty negative ways of writing and pretty intolerant as well. I am not ashamed to say they hurt me. I am not angry, but I was hurt by your views and your words. If my words hurt you, I am sorry. Try re-reading your earlier posts again from another perspective and see how they might be taken by someone who believes in God.

For the record, when you write:
"Just thought I throw this out there and see what type, if any, responses I might get. Peace -" you might not always get the response you want! \:\)

Usually when my friends and I bump heads on religious ideas we decided to drop the issue. I think that's the best thing to do here. This was a bad way to meet, but oh well, can't change that now.

By the way, the post you wrote about your life in NY State with the fairs and festivals, etc. was very nice and brought back some nice memories of my own. It's obvious you're doing something right in this world. You should be proud of the life you're giving your children.

Peace,
Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77905 - 10/08/05 12:46 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Philip - Now I find myself on the apologizing end. My intent was not to hurt, nor was it to disparage your religion nor you personally.

I've had the 'free will' conversation with my mother-in-law ad nauseum. I've also discussed with her priest/friend (she worked in the Rectory for years). No matter what one says about the issue, it does not justify what goes on in this world. Not as far as I'm concerned. I find the free will justification to be nothing more nor less than than an answer to fill the void where there is no answer. Why do people hurt others? Why are there starving children? Why do people rob, steal, rape? No one can satisfactorily explain to me why God would let this happen (please note that I capitalized God and did not refer to Him as yours or anyone else's). So it was not your thoughts I was calling garbage, though it appeared that way. It was the concept of free will. I apologize.

And, while I do not intend to disparage you or your religion, my words are intended to disparage the religion I was brought up in...can they be two different things? The religion that let me down and the religion that kept you afloat? From where I sit, they are exactly that, two different things. Now there's a concept....I can clearly see how you'd take my words personally. I did not mean them that way. And I apologize again.

I can also see why you think we should drop it here. I disagree. I think we might be able to learn from this type of conversation. For me it was not a bad way to meet. I appreciate your devotion and your willingness to stand up and defend what you love. If you choose to end the conversation here, I'll certainly abide by that. But if you care to carry it on, I'll do my best to be more respectful and more sensitive.

And thank you for your kind words. I AM very proud of the life we've carved out here, especially in the interest of my daughter. We all love it here. I've never felt more at home. Glad it evoked some warm feelings for you...it's the least I could do after having insulted you and your religion. Sorry and Peace - John


Top
#77906 - 10/08/05 01:47 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
John,
Thank you for your kind words and of course accept your apology. I hope you accept mine.
Your last post took a knot right out of my stomach. I still want too much at times to please everyone.

I think that the religion you were brought up in and the one that gives me solace can be different. I know that there are some very important differences in world views between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. From my experience the Eastern view of evil and sin is from a therapeutic point of view. Sin is an illness, so to speak. Our goal in life is healing but also to achieve union with the unknowable God with whom we can still have a relationship (we know God by His Energy but not His Essence). It would take a very long (and probably fruitful to a certain extent)discussion, which is probably beyond the scope of this forum, but maybe through PM's. I dunno. My godmother, by the way, was a Tibetan Buddhist (she said she had been tonsured, or something...don't remember the technical term) by some high level lama from Tibet. She has taught me some things that we share in common with Buddhism (which is why I'd recommend reading the sayings of the Desert Fathers). I've found some things in Taoism and Stoicism that fit well with my faith but do not negate it. That we have free will...I believe. That it justifies evil or explains it simply or makes it more comfortable to deal with pain or suffering? I'd have to say no way! It's much more complex than I wrote about of course (and I'm sure you know that too).


However for the next week or so, I'm going to be tied up with about three exams, two papers, and KP in the seminary kitchen. A 40 year old guy in a dormatory! Oy gevault what was I thinking! \:o

peace,
Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77907 - 10/17/05 05:14 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
AuthenticMe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 287
Hi All,

I just wanted to add my thoughts about Buddhism. My first introduction to Buddhism (in this lifetime) came from my T, about 7 years ago when I was first recalled my abuse. He recommended a book by Pema Chodron, a Buddhist nun, called "The Places that Scare Us." It was like an awakening. She also wrote "When Things Fall Apart," which I cracked again during this most recent round of recovery.

Although I consider my self a Buddhist practitioner, the path has not been without struggle. It was only when I started meditating and studying regularly, in fact, that I was able to tap into the magnitude of SCA on my life. In that way, Buddhism has been amazingly positive. But painful.

Intellectually, I tend to believe the Buddhist presentation of karma. I have, however, "misused" Buddhist teachings on karma to perpetuate my habit of self-abuse: I've done bad deeds, therefore, I will surely experience a bad result, which leads me to anxiety and fear, which reinforces that I'm a bad person, etc.

I have found Buddhism to be of great value and know that my spiritual path will be of great benefit to my recovery. As I was raised a very cynical atheist, this is quite a step for me (though I know some atheists who definitely have a spiritual path).

_________________________
I am a Man.

Top
#77908 - 10/18/05 03:55 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Authenticme - My therapist suggested The Places That Scare Us too. That was very early in my recovery, not sure I absorbed it all. Maybe I should go back and take another look....Peace - John


Top
#77909 - 10/18/05 05:22 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
AuthenticMe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 287
Sinking,

Pema Chodron is very gentle and encouraging. The school of Buddhism that she comes from emphasizes different ways of dealing with and interacting with our emotions, so I find it very relevant during this time.

BTW, I wish I could be where you're "From" right now! All in due time, I guess.

_________________________
I am a Man.

Top
#77910 - 10/18/05 10:29 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Curtis St. John Offline
Past President
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 1796
Loc: Westchester, N.Y.
Great book!


Top
#77911 - 10/19/05 12:06 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Well, I've just finished reading this amazing thread and I'm hoping and praying/meditating that it will continue. I know that I'm learning from it. As it was suggested that this could continue in PM form, I certainly hope that it doesn't...a lot of us would be left out.

I can't remember a more intellectually stimulating conversation since my first year in college. This little school had the best forum. It was called, "The Saints, Sinners and Skeptics Club." Most of the presentations were much more cutting, sharply critical and downright argumentative than what is read here. But then I've appreciated that. Kinda like that thing about loving ones neighbor. Whoever presented me with that concept knew what they were doing...it seems the most difficult of exercises, for me, of getting along with others.

But this, this discussion, I've not been involved in a conversation of such respect and concern for the other, not even within my own congregation.

You should attend a church council meeting sometime!

My point being, and I didn't elaborate much when I mentioned it, that of having tolerance for others' faiths and religions.
I must admit I'm a christian who is all over the place. I have believed the tenants of my religious instruction, but have rejected the part about Jesus being the only way to heaven. What I've just said would get me kicked out of some christian churches.
Jesus is the only way if that's how you've heard about the kingdom of God, but it's not for the Native American who has revered this land and tired to take care of it. Ya, I know, he had trouble with his neighbor, too. Must be a lesson in there somewhere.
As I said, I do appreciate, that the big three, all teach love for the stranger, but they all fail miserably in the carrying out of that principle.
I like the example that Gandhi gave two waring leaders, of different faiths, when they asked him for his way to peace.
From what I remember, he told them that they should exchange sons and raise them as their own father would raise him, helping the others son with their religion lessons as he would expect the other father to do the same with his own son.
Number one, the fighting might stop for fear of killing ones own son, and the raising the others son into his enemies religion would hopefully teach the man what tolerance truly is.
I think inherent in all of that, would be the element of love, as well. How could one father not love the child if he expected the other father to love his own son?
Simple, sophomoric, maybe, but I've certainly enjoyed your stimulating discussion and I hope that it continues.

Oh, ya, and I'd like to have you as neighbors, too, one on each side.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

Top
#77912 - 10/20/05 03:54 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
Hi guys, just stopped in to say, hey. Still amazingly busy (it never stops). We've been doing some study of the "passions" (in the classical meaning...the negative aspects of a person...ie when normal hunger becomes gluttony, etc. The root of the word passion is suffering. Pathos,as in pathology, is part of the same root) and also basic spiritual anthropology. My head is spinning. What we've been learning is very relevant to the healing process, though and when I have absorbed it sufficiently I hope to be able to share it in a positive way. We even broached the subject of how betrayals and abuse can traumatize a person and help create passions. I think the example he used was the "prostitute who lived through a series of abuses as a child and young woman." A prostitute is not born, she is made, is what I could make of my notes. It's an extreme example, of course, but still true. I am trying to digest some of this and look unflinchingly at my own mode of being. As with all human beings I see many passions within myself that need transfiguring (not eradication but transformation from one state to another...lust to divine eros, anger to a thirst for justice, gluttony to a hunger for God, indifference to love for all). It's tough seeing where all the broken places are. These are all soul-sickness and a psychology that truly is a soul-oriented therapy is what is needed. I need to marinate in this a bit. Gotta go. I've got to get to Matins at 5am tomorrow and then liturgy. It's my turn to serve in the altar.

Peace to all. I hope to contribute more when I am able.

Philip

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77913 - 10/23/05 02:41 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
John, I'm not a strict, practicing, knowledgeable Buddhist but do believe in many of the Buddhist principles and apply them to my life. At the core I don't think the behaviours espoused are that different than those of Christianity. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

Top
#77914 - 10/24/05 01:27 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Quote:
I don't think the behaviours espoused are that different than those of Christianity
.

Andrew - I agree. I think Buddha and Christ were both great teachers who taught great and very similar lessons. The world would, no doubt, be a better place if we could all live by those lessons. For instance, I stopped giving the finger to drivers that piss me off. Hey, it's a start..... \:D


Top
#77915 - 10/25/05 02:05 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
John,

You are so right. On the road to enlightment, nobody should give anyone else the finger. Words to live by.

John

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77916 - 10/25/05 03:44 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
ftgf Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 49
Loc: USA
That's the early leader for quote of the week.

Jeff

_________________________
Fight the Good Fight!

Top
#77917 - 10/25/05 06:37 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Kind of puts a simple spin on a practice that can seem so daunting and complicated, eh?


Top
#77918 - 10/27/05 03:50 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
Haven't written in a while, but shit happens. God is revealed and acts in strange mysterious ways. Buddha saw this but it took years of being nothing to see the something in all the nothingness and to become one had to dissolve.

What happened to us is a consequence of ours or others actions. I think the hardest part is that I realize (now)I had the power within to stop it at any time I wanted, but I did not have the strength. That is my struggle.

We all have the power to say NO. It is so simple, but so complex and hard. I have to reinforce that many times.

This is the lesson I have to learn this time on the path.

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

Top
#77919 - 10/27/05 12:45 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
TRIGGER WARNING!!!
Michael - What happened to me was in no way the consequence of my actions. I was beaten and otherwise treated poorly by my parents because they were lacking the ability to deal with their own problems. No child deserves to have his father on top of him, punching him and slamming his head on the floor at the age of 5 or 6, or any age for that matter. I refuse to take any blame for that. I also refuse to take any blame for the swim coach, a former Marine, raping me at age 9 and continuing his assaults for nearly a year. How could these things have been my fault?

I did not have the power to say NO. It was not simple, the option was not there. And then the swim coach told me that if I ever told anyone, he would kill my parents and then kill me. So I protected my parents' lives, the same people who probably beat the shit out me that very same night.

It's taken me a long time to rid myself of the blame and shame that I've lived with for so long, and I'm still not 100% there. And that is the lesson I have to learn on this path.

I don't know what circumstances you were under at the time of your abuse, but I flatly refuse to take responsibility for the terrible things adults did to me when I was a child. Peace - John


Top
#77920 - 10/30/05 04:58 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
I gotta agree with John on this one. I was 6 when my abuse started and I doubt I had the understanding of what was happening to say no. I was sworn to secrecy by my perp....my brother.

But also.....it can happen when we're "adults" too!

**TRIGGER**

When I was 19 I said no to a woman I was with...it didn't matter. She was older than I was. I had no experience to speak of with women...and she just got me drunk, took my clothes off after a party, and then asked "do you want to do this?" I said no. She ignored me went at it anyway... and I just completlely left my body. Strangest experience! I completely dissociated as if I were next to myself. Now to most people in the world this would have been a cool experience for a 19 year old freshman kid to be seduced by a 24 year old grad student. It wasn't. I tried to convince myself it was but it was scary for me and I felt sooooo guilty. Saying no meant nothing to this woman. I later found out that she was fired from a high school teaching position for seducing her students. I fit her mode of operation.

That experience is nothing nearly as bad as others have had here, I'm almost embarrassed to complain about it. I don't "rank" it as high as my CSA, which was much worse and much more manipulative. It is more an echo of the effects of the CSA. I couldn't then stand up for myself and let myself get used against my will. I suppose it was a date rape by the classic definition. Maybe if I'd been in my body at the time I'd have been able to do something bolder. But it was what it was and I reacted in my old ways of protecting myself. Sometimes you have to realize that when you don't have the strength to do something...then you didn't really have the power to do something. You can't project backwards in time what you know now. It seems obvious. I didn't have the strength of will to resist when I was 6-9 years old. I didn't have the strength to resist when I was 19. I had to "exercise" to gain that strength. It took a while. I still have to keep exercising, too, to keep up my strength! God grant us all the strength to keep up the good fight.

Blessings on all,
Philip

(by the way I got a 100 on one exam and a 95 on the other...still working on a paper feverishly..had to take a break).

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77921 - 10/30/05 02:03 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Quote:
(by the way I got a 100 on one exam and a 95 on the other...still working on a paper feverishly..had to take a break).
Nice work Phillip, keep it up. I enjoyed hearing this almost as much as I enjoyed the opening sentence to this most recent post of yours. ;\)


Top
#77922 - 11/07/05 06:15 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Mystic Rhythm Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 96
Loc: Limbo, clawing my way out...
***TRIGGERS***

I too was sexually victimized by my former best friend when I was 19 (she was 20). I never saw it coming largely due to the fact that 1) She was my best friend and knew far more about sex than I did (which was nothing), and 2) I trusted her, and she turned that trust against me and forced herself on me.

It's taken quite a while - 12 years - to free myself of the burden of shame and guilt and put it where it belongs: on her. And I for one shall forever refuse to believe in a loving and just God (I use the term generically). At age 13, my grandmother was a staunch (blind?) believer in God and Jesus, and my mom, my brother and myself had to live with her seeing as my mom and dad were getting a divorce. We lived in my grandparents' home for 5 months, and I was forced (by physical force) by my grandmother to attend church every Sunday against my supposed free will. Well I remember the one day in July when I flatly refused and stayed in bed. She kicked me several times in the ribs in a fit of crying rage to get my ass up and go to church to believe in God and Jesus, yadda yadda yadda. She failed miserably to "kick me to church" and instead "kicked Christianity" out of me. For a 13 year old to no longer firmly believe there is no God and that religion is nothing but a veil over everyones' eyes was nothing short of an epiphany for me. Previously, forced to go to church and forced to study christianity in school always felt wrong. For the first time, and ever since then, to no longer believe in God and Jesus has felt right.

I don't know anything about Buddhism save what I've seen on TV, so I won't bother to comment on it. I've looked towards Wicca and Paganism and found solace there. To believe in nature and its mysterious forces that weave and bind all things together is a far greater comfort for me than fabricated religions.

And ye harm none
Do what ye will

Although other religions and spiritual beliefs tend to follow the same edict as the Wiccan Rede in their own ways, it just cannot be said simpler. And that's what I follow and believe and strive to do as best I can whenever I can. I've stopped a long time ago cluttering my head with all sorts of rules and regulations on how to get to heaven and avoid hell blah blah blah. It's one thing to search for one's truth, be it God, Allah or Buddha or even Gaia or whatever else works for you; and quite another thing to force this stuff onto others, denying them their own free will to choose what suits that person best.

I put the trigger warning there for a reason. I'm neither sorry if I offended Christians or Buddhists or any other religion. I firmly believe each person has their own path to take, where ever it leads them. Do I justify hurting others? NO. (Read the Rede one more time) I'm just sick and tired of religion being the excuse that others use to justify their ways of hurting and killing others, and more so to those who continue to blindly follow the few that abuse religion and twist it to suit their own ends.

We are ALL capabale of good and bad, and we are ALL capable of choosing one or the other - right down to the very core of our being. That is free will: the power to make a choice. Every situation, even our abuse, has at least two choices. And we tell ourselves we didn't have a choice, but in reality we did. The problem is that one of those choices would have led to consequences so dire and mayhaps lethal, that we chose the other choice - the lesser of two evils so to speak. Those consequences are sometimes unfathomable, especially when we are young children. Does it make right the fact that we were abused and we could have said no but did not? Fuck NO! But the choice was there nonetheless.

I made my choice which path I would walk, from my spiritual beliefs to my way of life to the work I do and the relationships I have, as have all of you. As for my abuse, I was too naive to know I had a choice, but it was there nonetheless, and I live with it. The only wisdom I can add to this thread is that you should follow the path that feels right to you and accept the choices made along that path. If your current path does not feel right to you, then make a choice and change it as best you can with what you have. Better yet, make a choice to learn more about a new path and follow it.

Hence, free will. Peace- \:\)

MR

_________________________
"Don't give up and lose the chance to return to innocence" - Enigma, Return to Innocence

Top
#77923 - 11/07/05 06:50 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
MR,

Thanks for this thoughtful and very personal post. I can't imagine a more negative way to learn about a religion that to have it kicked into you, as you say.

I just want to ask you about something else you said here:

Quote:
And we tell ourselves we didn't have a choice, but in reality we did. The problem is that one of those choices would have led to consequences so dire and mayhaps lethal, that we chose the other choice - the lesser of two evils so to speak. Those consequences are sometimes unfathomable, especially when we are young children. Does it make right the fact that we were abused and we could have said no but did not? Fuck NO! But the choice was there nonetheless.
To this you add the telling point that you were too naive to know you had a choice.

My query would be this: If a child doesn't know he has a choice, does he in fact have that choice? My own memory of my "first time" is clear, and I don't recall thinking in terms of choices, naive or otherwise. What I recall are feelings of confusion, embarrassment, not liking the hands on me, and mainly fear, all in a kind of terrible whirlwind. My reaction wasn't to choose anything, but rather to freeze and cry.

I of course honor your right to your view on this. I would just suggest that you are being too hard on yourself; you are judging how you reacted as a child in terms of what you know as an adult. I don't think I had a choice, and I don't feel you did either.

Just a thought.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77924 - 11/07/05 10:36 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
MR - Larry is very diplomatic in his response to your post. And, while I find it well written and engaging, I can't accept your assertion that I had a choice in what happened to me. I'd also like to point out that this thread has strayed far from its original intent which was to discuss Buddhism and the benefits some of us have gotten from Buddhist practice.

Having said that, I agree with most of what you've written above and am happy for you that Wiccan ways have given you solace (beware of some who may read this and mistake Wicca for evil, Satan worshipping witches...).

However, I will not allow you to replace the blame for what happened to me back on me. MR, I was nine years old when I was raped by a full-grown man, a former Marine, my swim coach. He was, of course bigger and stronger than I was, physically and intellectually. He threatened to kill my parents and then me if I ever told anyone. He was brutal and violent with that little boy. He, with his fucking free will, took me to lovely places like the steamy, hot, greasy, dirty, ear-shatteringly loud boiler room in the Boys' Club to use me and the girls' shower room, and the boys room and his car and his dark, scary apartment.

Prior to being his victim, I was born with deformities in both feet, had numerous surgeries throughout my childhood, always in and out of the hospital, with casts on both legs and metal bars between the casts. I couldn't move during my formative years. I was a burden to my parents, beaten by both of them, psychologically and emotionally abused by my mother. My parents created a victim and then sent him out into the world. The swim coach saw me coming a mile away.

I did NOT have a choice in what happened to me. I was raped, anally and orally at the tender age of nine. Don't tell me I had a choice. Don't tell me it was my fault, because that's what your statement boils down to.

I can see why you might be blaming yourself for not saying no at nineteen years of age. I carried misplaced shame and guilt for years. I can see why you think you might have had a choice. I was not there, it's not for me to judge whether or not you could have stopped what happened, that's for you to reconcile. But don't tell me or others here, some who were abused in toddler years, if not younger, that I or they had a choice to have said no at the time. I didn't.

I know some of this sounds angry but I want you to know that I intend no ill will. But the little boy who was brutally raped needed to be stood up for this time so I did. - Peace - John


Top
#77925 - 11/08/05 12:10 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
AuthenticMe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 287
John,

Thank you for standing up for little John. I have had such hard time doing that, so your post is incredibly beautiful and inspiring.

_________________________
I am a Man.

Top
#77926 - 11/08/05 12:33 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Guys,

If MR is willing, why not ask that this be split off from the Buddhism thread (beginning with MR's post) and continue on its own in the "Male Survivor" forum? I think it could be very useful.

This one hits a lot of hot buttons, and I think we will be into big issues beyong responsibility: shame, guilt, fear, and so on. I know everyone is just speaking their mind, and that's good, but could we bring the tension down a few clicks? \:\) I think that would allow the discussion to be a lot more productive.

Much love,
Larry

(edited to suggest where to split this off)

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77927 - 11/08/05 03:08 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Larry - With all due respect, and I think you know I hold plenty for you, I am disappointed and offended that you would request that I reign in my righteous anger and indignation at being blamed for being raped.

I do, however, agree that this part of the thread should have its own life somewhere else. The positivity of the original posts has been soiled.
John


Top
#77928 - 11/08/05 03:43 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Mystic Rhythm Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 96
Loc: Limbo, clawing my way out...
I'm cool with Larry's suggestion at a new thread. How is this done?

MR

_________________________
"Don't give up and lose the chance to return to innocence" - Enigma, Return to Innocence

Top
#77929 - 11/08/05 05:12 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
MR,

I just did a mod report on this - not anything negative, just asking them if they can move this tangent to "male survivors" as a thread on "Did we have a choice?". Okay?

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77930 - 11/08/05 05:31 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

I didn't see your post - classes all day - or I would have replied earlier. I make this a post instead of a PM since I gave you offense publicly and so something here is more appropriate.

My apologies for offending you. That was not my intention and I wasn't trying to single you out. You know how highly I regard you, and I am sorry I have given a different impression.

My suggestion was and is that a subject like this is difficult to discuss unless everyone involved feels that their sincere views can be expressed and then discussed without attracting blame.

That said, yes, the whole subject is absolutely triggering and I do not fault you in the slightest for your reaction to MR's post. But I think it is worth talking about because so many of us have been or are still in stages where we blame ourselves for our abuse, or feel that we exercised choices much as MR describes.

My suggestion about turning the tension down a few clicks was not directed to you at all, or MR for that matter. I was just concerned that if the discussion is pursued it should not become an argument.

That said, I am acutely aware that I would be one of the first to deserve such a reminder. Perhaps that is why the point came to me. I am not proud of some of my contributions to past firefights here and perhaps I should just say that was a growing experience for me and revealed to me so many of my own anger issues.

But that isn't the point here. I'm sorry I offended you and never meant to do that.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77931 - 11/09/05 12:01 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Larry - I thank you for your heartfelt words. I responded in a PM to you as well and would like to copy that response here (or in the moved thread if that happens), with your permission. Peace - John


Top
#77932 - 11/09/05 10:39 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
John,

Sure. I don't mind at all.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77933 - 11/09/05 11:16 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I went to a Jesuit University - Per the requirement - we took on manadatory and one elective theological course -

my elective was zen buddhism -
which was interesting - and the 'lab' was to attend a shrine - and learn about it all -

we studied seated - standing and walking meditation -

it was in an old house that was lit by candles in near arlington virginia!

mark

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#77934 - 11/09/05 12:09 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Mark's post reminds me: When my kids were in school they had "Religious Education", and that meant learning about all the world's major religions. The kids had a great time. They celebrated all the festivals and holidays and spent a lot of time going to mosques, temples, chuirches, whatever. It was a great experience for them, and at no time was the emphasis on preaching to them - it was just an introduction to what the different religions believe.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#77935 - 11/09/05 02:55 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Hi guys - Good to see this back on track. I'm thinking that the Mods might not be able to break out portions of threads in an effort to move or delete them without losing thee whole thing. If that is the case, I would prefer to keep this thread and its mostly positive message here and start a new thread that addresses the controversy over whether or not we had a choice in what happened to us.

And, because there's nowhere else to put it at the moment, but I wanted my message to Larry to be part of this public forum, here is my response to Larry's apology and explanation above:

Larry - This does not affect our friendship nor does it diminish the trust I have in you. I too value that enormously. None of us are perfect, far from it. We may have similar encounters in the future. We can't always agree. I believe our mutual respect will weather any disagreements, debates, etc. that we happen across in the future.

I accept your apology and respect your willingness to take responsibility. I am a little unclear though on whom you were directing your suggestion to tone things down to, if not me and not MR. Any previous contentious debate had been resolved.

I'm sure some of my reaction comes from years of carrying the shame and guilt baggage so many of us carry. It is heavy baggage and very difficult to put down. I think my arms are still sore and sometimes have the feeling that they are still holding the baggage, kind of like when you take a watch off at night but it feels like it's still there...sometimes we even check.

Maybe the feeling never completely goes away. I will always do what I can to get rid of it though, since I have had a taste of being free from it. And I will always take a stand for the boy who couldn't do that on his own because now I can.

I apologize if I have caused any offense to anyone here. I am a fucking pit-bull with a second set of teeth when it comes to defending those I love and that little boy sits at the top of the list, right next to my precious daughter.
Peace - John


That said...Mark, thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like it was fun and inspiring.

Larry - The approach your kids' school took is exactly the approach I am taking with my daughter in teaching her about religion. We have the Bible and the Torah and several books on Buddha and an excellent book called "The World's Religions" that gives a rather thorough synopsis on the world's 'major' religions. I feel it's best for us all to have a little bit of understanding of each so we can make an educated decision on whether we want to subscribe to one or another.


Top
#77936 - 11/09/05 06:09 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
gentlemen, thank you all for a most useful thread - i'll need to read it again, from the top, and absorb the many insights herein that are relevant to my personal situation. Like many here, I was raised RC and almost applied for entrance to the seminary at one point. Now, alas, I have no patience for "organized" christianity of any denomination. Buddhist tenets, from several schools, seem logically and psychologically much more satisfying to me at this current point in my path than do my childhood beliefs. Thanks again for helping me think fairly deeply about important stuff.

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

Top
#77937 - 11/09/05 07:20 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Welcome to the party George. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts. I too am learning so much from this thread and all involved in it, whether I like it or not. Learning is good, I hope I never stop. Peace - John


Top
#77938 - 11/13/05 05:38 AM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
subdeacon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 83
Loc: Florida
well, I've been gone a while and thought I'd drop by for a few seconds. Whew! things got heated a bit, it seems! This brought back many painful memories for me. My main abuse was when I was aged 6-9. Not so much physical forcing and pain as mental manipulation and grooming. Still, it has a lot of baggage that goes with it...a lot of sorrow and shame. I still have the sorrow...but the shame gets less every day. I am only ashamed of the things I've done, not what was done to me. Does a cow feel ashamed of steaks? It shouldn't...and nor should I feel ashamed. Nothing that happened to me was my fault and none of it was my sin.

I spent a long time, though, with New Age thought and the biggest thing I had problems dealing with was their use (probably misuse) of the concept of karma. Everything that happens in this life was a choice I made in some ethereal realm before I'd incarnated, so that I'd learn some cosmic lesson I hadn't learned in a previous life...or was working out an issue in a previous life. I could never buy that farm, much less eat that produce it still had the fertilizer on it. I don't see how anyone could expect me to beleive I'd chosen to be screwed over by my brother. Chosen that...and then I was going to have to "own" my choices and take responsibility (but no blame) for those choices. Bullshit. If I'd "chosen" it, then I was to blame as well. I simply don't understand that "New Age" way of thinking at all. Tell me, please, that's a screwed up verison of karma! It's gotta be! At any rate, I preferred in the end to be allied with the God who suffered with me and now helps me get through the day...and don't think I don't get frustrated and don't ask why(and not always nicely).
Well, I'm pretty fried these past two weeks...very tired, and probably just rambling...more exams and papers due and done with more to come. And I'm still loving it. It's so beautiful this time of year up here. John, I'll bet it's great where you are. I don't think you're too far from where I am ...just a bit further north.

take care my friends, take good care,

Philip

PS> sorry I haven't been around much...just too darned busy (it's about a 50-60 hour work week here and then there's church twice a day...a spiritual boot-camp if you will). I will drop by when I can. Good talking with you all.

_________________________
"By way of trials and sufferings we must purify the divine image in us...for it is by reforging our senses in the furnace of our trials that we free them from defilement and assume our royal dignity. --Abba Philimon

Top
#77939 - 11/13/05 07:28 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
AuthenticMe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 287
Philip,

I, too, have struggled with some explanations of karma that I've heard. If you are interested in a detailed, thorough explanation of karma from a scholastic viewpoint, browse around http://www.world-view.org. Geshe Michael Roach, the first american to receive the equivalent of a doctorate in Tibetan buddhsim, founded http://www.world-view.org, which offers 20 years of what he learned through correspondence courses.

Very generally, karma is the theory that every action (beneficial, harmful, or neutral) plants a seed that ripens into a similar result. When I become angry, for example, I have planted a karmic seed to perceive someone being angry at me in the future. Some karmic seeds ripen in this life time. Most ripen in later lifetimes.

What does that mean for a survivor of CSA? I've struggled with this idea, but I don't think it's a question of blaming myself for the fact that I was abused. I can accept the idea that I did something harmful to someone in a past life that karmically resulted in CSA. When I start to ask "Why me?" it's among the best answers I can come up with.

More importantly, I see karma as a way to teach me to avoid engaging in harmful acts. If I understand that harming others will result in harm to myself, it would be crazy to harm someone else.

I obviously don't have all this straight in my head, but one reasons I was attracted to Buddhism was the idea of karma (which actually has its roots in Indian traditions).

_________________________
I am a Man.

Top
#77940 - 11/18/05 07:39 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Sometimes, you don't know that you are in danger, or that there will be a price to pay later. Sometimes, you are tricked. Sometimes, you are lonely and scared before the perp arrives, and you think you are being saved...when you are not. There was no real choice in that either.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

Top
#77941 - 11/30/05 11:59 PM Re: Buddhism Anyone?
AuthenticMe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 287
I agree. As I child, I did not have the awareness to recognize that trust was being broken.

_________________________
I am a Man.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.