MR - Larry is very diplomatic in his response to your post. And, while I find it well written and engaging, I can't accept your assertion that I had a choice in what happened to me. I'd also like to point out that this thread has strayed far from its original intent which was to discuss Buddhism and the benefits some of us have gotten from Buddhist practice.

Having said that, I agree with most of what you've written above and am happy for you that Wiccan ways have given you solace (beware of some who may read this and mistake Wicca for evil, Satan worshipping witches...).

However, I will not allow you to replace the blame for what happened to me back on me. MR, I was nine years old when I was raped by a full-grown man, a former Marine, my swim coach. He was, of course bigger and stronger than I was, physically and intellectually. He threatened to kill my parents and then me if I ever told anyone. He was brutal and violent with that little boy. He, with his fucking free will, took me to lovely places like the steamy, hot, greasy, dirty, ear-shatteringly loud boiler room in the Boys' Club to use me and the girls' shower room, and the boys room and his car and his dark, scary apartment.

Prior to being his victim, I was born with deformities in both feet, had numerous surgeries throughout my childhood, always in and out of the hospital, with casts on both legs and metal bars between the casts. I couldn't move during my formative years. I was a burden to my parents, beaten by both of them, psychologically and emotionally abused by my mother. My parents created a victim and then sent him out into the world. The swim coach saw me coming a mile away.

I did NOT have a choice in what happened to me. I was raped, anally and orally at the tender age of nine. Don't tell me I had a choice. Don't tell me it was my fault, because that's what your statement boils down to.

I can see why you might be blaming yourself for not saying no at nineteen years of age. I carried misplaced shame and guilt for years. I can see why you think you might have had a choice. I was not there, it's not for me to judge whether or not you could have stopped what happened, that's for you to reconcile. But don't tell me or others here, some who were abused in toddler years, if not younger, that I or they had a choice to have said no at the time. I didn't.

I know some of this sounds angry but I want you to know that I intend no ill will. But the little boy who was brutally raped needed to be stood up for this time so I did. - Peace - John

John,

Thank you for standing up for little John. I have had such hard time doing that, so your post is incredibly beautiful and inspiring.

Guys,

If MR is willing, why not ask that this be split off from the Buddhism thread (beginning with MR's post) and continue on its own in the "Male Survivor" forum? I think it could be very useful.

This one hits a lot of hot buttons, and I think we will be into big issues beyong responsibility: shame, guilt, fear, and so on. I know everyone is just speaking their mind, and that's good, but could we bring the tension down a few clicks? I think that would allow the discussion to be a lot more productive.

Much love,
Larry

(edited to suggest where to split this off)

Larry - With all due respect, and I think you know I hold plenty for you, I am disappointed and offended that you would request that I reign in my righteous anger and indignation at being blamed for being raped.

I do, however, agree that this part of the thread should have its own life somewhere else. The positivity of the original posts has been soiled.
John

I'm cool with Larry's suggestion at a new thread. How is this done?

MR

MR,

I just did a mod report on this - not anything negative, just asking them if they can move this tangent to "male survivors" as a thread on "Did we have a choice?". Okay?

Larry

John,

I didn't see your post - classes all day - or I would have replied earlier. I make this a post instead of a PM since I gave you offense publicly and so something here is more appropriate.

My apologies for offending you. That was not my intention and I wasn't trying to single you out. You know how highly I regard you, and I am sorry I have given a different impression.

My suggestion was and is that a subject like this is difficult to discuss unless everyone involved feels that their sincere views can be expressed and then discussed without attracting blame.

That said, yes, the whole subject is absolutely triggering and I do not fault you in the slightest for your reaction to MR's post. But I think it is worth talking about because so many of us have been or are still in stages where we blame ourselves for our abuse, or feel that we exercised choices much as MR describes.

My suggestion about turning the tension down a few clicks was not directed to you at all, or MR for that matter. I was just concerned that if the discussion is pursued it should not become an argument.

That said, I am acutely aware that I would be one of the first to deserve such a reminder. Perhaps that is why the point came to me. I am not proud of some of my contributions to past firefights here and perhaps I should just say that was a growing experience for me and revealed to me so many of my own anger issues.

But that isn't the point here. I'm sorry I offended you and never meant to do that.

Much love,
Larry

Larry - I thank you for your heartfelt words. I responded in a PM to you as well and would like to copy that response here (or in the moved thread if that happens), with your permission. Peace - John

John,

Sure. I don't mind at all.

Much love,
Larry

I went to a Jesuit University - Per the requirement - we took on manadatory and one elective theological course -

my elective was zen buddhism -
which was interesting - and the 'lab' was to attend a shrine - and learn about it all -

we studied seated - standing and walking meditation -

it was in an old house that was lit by candles in near arlington virginia!

mark