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#77607 - 01/28/05 07:19 PM Did God Create Evil?
Kraftsims Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
Someone rightly asked in another post if God made everything, then God made evil. If nothing existed before God created things, then God created evil when he made the universe (or humans).

I've grappled and struggled with this concept a lot. I've come to the following conclusion so far. This isn't doctrine I'm stating, just where I'm at with my walk with God right now.

I think a healthy roundtable discussion would be beneficial for all on this topic.

God made the heavens. God made the Earth. God made all things on Earth, including humans. God called it "good". If a perfect omnipotent omniscient being calls something good, it must have been dynamite. where was evil at this point? I do not know.

Maybe evil was in existance, maybe not. Maybe after the Earth dimension had been created, the war in heaven happened. Who knows such things except God Himself.

Here's where I'm going with this. I do not think God created evil directly. I think evil came into existance first when Lucifer rebelled. Then I believe evil was opened up (so to speak) into our time/space dimension when our forefathers disobeyed with the crunch of an apple.

Did God actually say, "let there be evil?" I just can't buy into that. I think that God made us to be devine-human impartakers of His presence, eg, before the fall in the garden. There was perfect communion between God and His creation.

When rebellion occured, God chose to take that portion of Himself out of us. The spirit of mankind died, so to speak. Hence the statement, on this day you shall surely die. They didn't physically die, but spiritually, they were dead as of the moment God spoke that. Hence, having to be reborn spiritually today.

I believe that evil just is the action/evidence of us being these human entities, designed by the original craftsman, to function in and through Him and Him only. Only in Him and through Him and with Him can we be complete(perfected). Since we are lacking him from the time of the apple, everything that is NOT of Him has had the right to manifest itself into the time/space created dimension we live in today.

Think of it like this: God dwelled within us and the creation was subjected to God's perfect presence. He withdrew His presence from creation and from within us allowing death to occur. Death of what is, by His measurements, the only method of living: through the source of Life Himself.

Therefore, I am currently concluding that God did not "make" evil, but evil is just the effect/manner of operation that occurs in the abscence of His presence. Since everything here was made to be indwelt by Him, the absence of Him has allowed everything that is not of His Spirit to run amok.

Evil, in my opinion, is not some vague mystical force. It is a personalized series of entities that are dark. They are dark and called darkness because they had the same thing happen to them that happened to us: God's light removed from our being. That is why I believe God's plan for salvation through Christ so caught Satan off guard. I just don't think for a moment that satan would have killed Christ if he knew it was going to result in the salvation of mankind and God UNdoing the very thing He had done in the past: restore His presence in us. Satan just did NOT see that coming. He thought God was through with us by way of indwelling.

Satan (a personal force of evil) and his dominion rage against humans because these beings were made to have light in them. They were angels of light. They are dark angels, beings still in existence, but they are not LIVING. They are, so to speak, death itself in the form of an entity that is personified. That is what I think, to a symbolic sense, we have in us before salvation, death itself in us and God restores Life to us through the indwelling Presence of His Spirit via Christs atonement.

We have such powerful souls because we were made to be powerful beings when coupled with the Light (Spirit) of God. This inherent light/goodness was removed from us, so we have this void, this continual thirst, raging or trickling through us non-stop. It's the effect of the fall of mankind. Hence the message Jesus spoke to the lady at the well about living waters: she will thirst no more. Obviously he wasn't talking about natural water, but spiritual water. What is her thirst? This desire for connection, for intimacy, for indwelling with His presence. It is only through the indwelling of Christ in us, this great mystery of the ages, that we can have our 'thirst' for life, for peace, truly quenched. When we walk according to this newness of life within us, we are quenched, satisfied inside. When we don't, we arent.

I'm concluding right now that evil is that side of us that came into existence when an absence was known because of the removing of Life Himself from us.

That's my thoughts. Does any of this make sense?

Looking forward to some discussion on this.

Rob

_________________________
Now to Him who is able to do, immeasurably more, than all we could ask or imagine

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#77608 - 01/28/05 11:54 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Emerald Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 21
Loc: here
I'm spiritual (or getting closer), not religious.

On the human side of this question of good vs. evil, I believe in free-will. In other words, I believe that we all have choices in our lives. And I believe that evil is associated with intentions, rather than outcomes. Sometimes we think we made the wrong choice, because stuff doesn't turn out the way we like it or expect it. Other times, we make a bad choice, through fear, or anger or hatred, etc. And everything comes out fine. Or it doesn't and someone gets hurt. I think we are responsible for all our choices. Intentionally choosing out of fear or pride or greed, or lust ... you get the idea, is one of the evils that I see. Who hasn't done this? And some, as people here know, have chosen much worse than others. I think intentional child abuse is one of the worst forms of evil.

On the "natural" side of this question, like the weather or an accident ... well, sh*t happens. And who is to say whether this is good or bad? If you believe in a "heaven" or other dimension, some get there a bit faster. (I've lost people this way, so I don't mean to minimize the pain this causes those left behind.)

Then there's the personal side of this question ... the evil I perpetrate on myself, by my belittling, blaming, accusing, judging, shaming, etc. That's an evil that to me is a very harmful one. It hurts me and can hurt others that care about me. But this one is in my control. I CAN work to put a stop to this kind of evil. I can work on me. Learning to love and be loved and live in love and see the best.

Did God create evil? I don't know. But my choice is to embrace a loving God. Why would I want to choose an evil God? So I could blame him?

I know theologians have had this debate for centuries. I'm glad I'm a bit more simplistic. I think I have enough work to do on the personal side of this issue ... I'd rather spend my time there. But I do enjoy the debate.

Emerald (a young soul, still learning)


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#77609 - 01/29/05 07:29 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Douglas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 4
Howdy Rob,

this is the "mocker" here. I think the RC church has done quite a bit of study on this topic. From what I understand, the best they've come up with so far is the term, "Mystery of evil," something like "mysterium iniquitatis." It's not something that can be truly understood without divine revelation.

Is evil a noun or an adjective? Is darkness itself a thing, or the absence of another thing? If evil describes a condition or action, but is not itself a discreet thing, how could it be created?

-- Doug
"...still looking for tables to knock over."


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#77610 - 01/30/05 06:40 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
I think that many are missing the point in the good/evil thing. Evil is in all of us along with good.

We (survivors) have been conquered by evil at an age before we could understand the battle and fight back. The acts perpetrated against us were evil. It, in turn, focused us on an evil path. This path was all we knew. Yeah, I always thought I was a good person, I just had a weakness for women, drugs, or alcohol, etc., but hey I was really good inside. I just had this self-loathing and hatred of myself due to CSA. I tried to self destruct to avoid facing the evil within. Everyone says that we are not to blame for what happened to us. Maybe so, but I will be damned if I don't feel responsible for every action I have taken since. I had a choice to fight or give in to evil. No matter what.

The point being, even though I hated myself, I KNEW I had good inside me!

We all have to confront evil and overcome it. This enhances our goodness. This is how we achieve balance. THIS is HOW we become God-like. Jesus agonized over what he had to face, but did it anyway. Isn't that what we are doing by facing our abuse and conquering teh evil within.

I hope some of this makes sense, ut what I am saying is that we have to make our own decisions and make our own spiritual journey. I happen to believe in a universe of duality, therefore we must achieve balance. Finally, 42 years after my abuse started, I am achieving that balance by facing it head on by choosing good, not evil. But I can only do that by reognizing the evil within. The domination of the spirit by evil was caused by someone outside of myself, but a seed of evil is in every person. Events can cause us to be dominated by good or evil. now that I understand that, I choode the good.

This is what strengthens me everyday. I CHOOSE MY BEHAVIOUR.

Jesus had free will to walk away from the cross, but chose not to. This is the same battle we face. Buddha meditated for years to come to the same conclusion, and walked away from his wealth and position.

The hardest thing we have to do for ourselves is hold the mirror up and look more deeply than others. Our path is hard and rocky. But think how much more closer to being a spiritual being we can become.

I know this is rambling, but it is late. IMO, and it is only mine, I do not condemn nor can I disagree with the path anyone has chosen, it is just that the universal energy that flows through all things is dual in nature. One can not exist without the other.

So, in the context of this question, if only God is the creator, and God created Lucifer (Satan), than God also created evil. If not, than God is not the only creator in the universe. So in my warped mind's logic, all things come from God including evil.

Afterall, who are we to judge why God makes things so?

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

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#77611 - 01/31/05 12:28 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
God did not create Evil, evil creates Evil.
Love begets Love.
A child is so innocent when he reaches this World, he is precious to the future of the World.
He was born of innocence, he radiated unconditional love, it was taken away by those who chose to walk in the darkness of desire, they who choose to cast little children into the darness of their lust.

I think I am evil writing this but this is the only way of expressing what I feel right now. Evil is always the best kept secret, but then again, at such a young age I witnessed evil.
Maybe this is why the young boy fights for his life against evil that he did not choose.

Evil is always a learned subject, none of us are born evil, it is surely a conditioning in our lives, and our perception of life as it is now and how? it was in our past.

I sometimes think I got through, but sometimes I dont. I hve to for the sake of my inner child,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#77612 - 02/03/05 04:27 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
OnHold Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Raleigh, NC
The "Problem of Evil" is a constant in relgious dicussion.

Basically the Christian Tradition (and thats the only one I can speak about with any sort of authority) says that Evil is not something created by God, but a perversion of what was created. Evil is more like a parasite that has to dwell in other things and can't function on its own. Often evil is connected to free will. Through free will, evil perverted the created order.

Some have asked: Why then have free will? Some would respond would it be good if we didn't have free will?

At some point it is a mystery... why do people do such evil things? Evil is stupid; why does it happen? And yet here we are, all of us victims of some real evil --- some really stupid decisions people have made.

The book I think of a lot when talking about things like this is, unfortunately now out of print: The Primacy of Love. Its a great study of Thomas Aquinas and the life of Virtue. Its much easier than reading Aquinas himself. \:\)

Aquinas often points to evil as disordered appitites --- when things that we know are terrible look so great to us for some reason. Aquinas was an excellent observer of human behavior --- he spends a lot of time describing why we do the things we do and what it takes to void getting things out of order.


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#77613 - 02/03/05 06:18 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
ak Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I do not know. I do not want to think that God created something as evil. I do not like to think that God creates bad things. But to say no, he did not, that is to take away from the omnipoetnce (if that is right word for 'all power) of God. I am not sure. It is like to say that God created flaws in things. Wouldn't an all powerful God create things perfect? But there is nothing in earth and universe that is perfect. Maybe when God create man with freedom of will, and it was misused, everthing that already was created as perfect also become flawed.

Andrei


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#77614 - 02/03/05 06:48 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Man sees flaws in a perfect creation and judges the creator by uninformed standards. And that is how is was made to be.


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#77615 - 02/03/05 08:21 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Ok here is my take on this subject.

I do believe in God. And I also believe that we suffer from benign neglect.

His gift to us is the ability to make choices (good or bad) and to act on those choices(good or bad) There will be good and bad choices and that has a lot to do I think with character flaws or some chemical inbalance.

Whatever it is It is ultimately up to each of us to chart our own life (good or bad). The evil that was laid on us has terrible but we have the choice to work on that and live the life we want.

CHOICES AND ACTION. HIS GIFT TO US.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#77616 - 02/03/05 11:12 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
To onhold, I went to St Thomas Aquinas school, and I had to learn the life and beliefs of the great man, granted he is hard to follow, but he is a shining light of true love and understanding.
The way we should all follow. This World would be so much safer and good to live in, if we could follow his example,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#77617 - 02/04/05 04:34 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Jeff S. Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Northern WIsconsin
I do not address this issue as anything like an "expert" in this field, but I am an ordained minister in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.

I believe, teach and confess that God created a perfect universe. Lucifer or Satan, or the other names for him in the Bible, chose to use his free will to challenge God, and became the essense of evil.

I also believe that Adam and Eve were created perfect and lived in a perfect world, until they also chose of their free will to abandon that perfection in search of something "better."

Why would God give us free will, if in His omnipotence, He knew we'd choose against Him? Because I believe He'd rather have us choose Him over evil than have us respond like programmed robots.

Does that mean some people are going to do evil things? Absolutely. The need for this board is evidence of that. However, in my experience, over 45 years, I have discovered many more good people out there than evil. So, will evil continue, yes until the end of time. But then, evil will get its just reward. And if they didn't get themselves right with God, our abusers will find themselves spending eternity in hell. And good for them!!!!!

Jeff S.


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#77618 - 02/04/05 02:54 PM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
The biggest confusion I have is that if God is perfect, omnipotent, and only created good, then how did Satan, Lucifer, whatever creat evil. Evil could not exist if God did not create it. To say otherwise is saying that Satan is equal to God in that he sould also create. One could take that farther and say if man created evil, then man is eaul to God also, since man was able to create.

In my twisted mind, there is a pwoer in the universe that none of us can fully understand that is comprised of both good and evil, positive and negative, and on and on. It is duality with seeds of each in the total of the other. There have been great examples of both sides throughout history, and it is up to us to decide which of the dualities will dominate us, OR.... we somehow achieve balance by understanding both.

This is what I think we are doing here: searching for understanding.

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

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#77619 - 02/05/05 05:54 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
sadanddown Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 191
Loc: Gaboogistan
I have been wondering the same things. I haven't gotten an answer from anyone, even after hours of debate and questions.

Personally, I don't believe in a God anymore. I would like to think that there is something constant and something powerful and great out there, but I feel now as if I that belief is like the belief that there is a Santa Clause.

Oh well though, these things are beyond me, when I die, and if there is a God and I go meet him, I'll sure have a lot of questions for him.

Jon

_________________________
I find I have to be the sad clown, laughing on the outside...crying on the inside.

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#77620 - 02/05/05 09:51 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Bobby Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1287
Loc: Arizona
I don't necessarily believe these things, but they do pass through my mind from time to time. I put them out there because I really do like to discuss things from a lot of different angles...not because I wanted to upset anybody or p.... anybody off. I would be interested in what anyone thinks of the ideas. Telling me I'm full of it will not bother me in the least. Bobby

There is no good and there is no evil, there simply is. How one chooses to label that "is" is one's own business. (It all depends on what your meaning of "is" is?) If one chooses to live his life with a concept of good in evil, then he must divide his world into those two parts and everything becomes one or the other. Mostly good things would be those which are helpful and which we agree with and bad things would be those which are not helpful and which we find disdainful in some manner. If we take them personally, then we must have some sort of power in charge of each...some power to inflict us with the evil or to give is the pleasure of the good. Life is especially simple if we have no gray areas...only the good and the evil.

There is also the view of life that it is all struggle (evil) and that, if we are strong enough and brave enough to fight the good fight, we will get our reward (or find the good) at the end of what basically has been a hellish trip through the evil.

Or the view that all of the world was created good and that evil somehow seeped in and is trying to eat up the good or to defeat it or to have dominion over it. In this one the good fight is still involved.

In reality, none of that is true. We have simply found ourselves in this strange place and we must survive here any way we can. The battle cannot be won. All lives will end in death. One can look at the unpleasant things that happen to him as evil or as simply the unpleasant things that happen to him. Unpleasant things will continue to happen to him until the final unpleasant thing which he will not survive. There may or may not be a less unpleasant place after death. No one knows about this for sure, even people who think they know about this for sure do not know about this for sure.

All of us, no matter what else we believe would like very much for there to be a pleasant place for us after death on the earth. It seems only fair. We have to have that dream, or there would be no purpose to life. We have a natural drive to live, but without that belief in a wonderful life to come, it is nothing more than the natural drive not to die.

The concept of Heaven and Hell is simply a means of control...nothing more.

_________________________
I'm healing now, and I wasn't sure I would.




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#77621 - 02/15/05 05:15 AM Re: Did God Create Evil?
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home
Darkness is there to empower us, so that we may choose light every time.
Fear is there to empower us, so that we may choose love everytime.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

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