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#77593 - 01/11/05 06:38 AM Abuse, Rejection, and God...
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
When I was small, we went to church (Church of Christ denomination) regularly until I was about 7 or 8. For some reason, we just stopped going about then. I'm not sure why, but we did. My father didn't want to go any more, so that was reason enough.

One of the most consistent memories I have of church is Sunday School, and the constant theme of how God made everything. He makes the flowers, He makes it rain, He made me, etc. To my young mind, God was the one pulling all of the levers and strings in the world, making everything happen.

So how does a mind that naive reconcile these truths he learned in Sunday School with the beatings, the eventual sexual abuse, the emotional isolation? I remember wondering why God was making these things happen to me. Why was I such a bad child that it caused God to hate me so much? Why was He rejecting me like this?

I never learned about the concept of the Trinity at that young of an age, but I remember thinking that Jesus was pretty cool because He was always nice to everyone. I remember my little white Bible with the picture of Him in the front of it, blonde hair, blue eyes, holding a little lost lamb. It was God that made things happen though.

I finally made my peace with God when I was 23. I had grown out of the anger at Him for all the trash of what I had called life up to that point.

I don't know what point I'm trying to make with all this, it's just something I've been thinking on for a while, remembering old feelings from all those years ago and what it felt like.

_________________________
Eddie

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#77594 - 01/11/05 08:14 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
TeeJayUU Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 262
Loc: MidWest
Our Heavenly Father did NOT make this happen to you. The devil, yes! I am so glad that you found a relationship with God. I was 38 before I did, he has saved my life!

Blessings and Prayers to you, my friend!

TJ

_________________________
"There is a plan for me, God has a Purpose, I know there is a reason that I'm ALIVE!" Cherish Grace
PEACE HOPE LOVE

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#77595 - 01/11/05 10:15 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Interesting thread. One of the reasons that I say that is because I always thought that it was me who caused, wanted, and went back for the abuse. It had nothing to do with God, except for the guilt and pain that I felt. Isn't that something, it was never God.

Did I always know, about that falling from grace, and that was the reason for pain in the world?

Man, I was in Sunday School from day one, confirmation for three years...no, I didn't have to repeat anything, we moved in between, and I had to start all over again...church every Sunday, even during those three years in the Army. "Holy Shit, Batman, I was a 'holy' kid."

I never blamed God for what happened to me. There was even an abuser in the chapel choir...A Major abuser, ya that was his rank. I finally had the guts to stay away from people like that, by that time.

Anyway, my anger at God did come later, however, when my awareness of the Holocaust, The Killing Fields, Viet Nam, war in general, were awakened.
And, I guess, some anger at Him for what happened to me. But I've never been able to work up a full head of steam of anger at Him for what happened to me. It always had something to do with the fall of man and individual choice.

I can't quite make the quantum leap as to why he allows it to happen to the children, however.

Someone once told me that it wasn't the answers that were important, it was the questions. As long as I was asking the right questions, I would be on the right path. Besides, they told me, only God knows the answers.

Peace, strength and courage,

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#77596 - 01/11/05 10:48 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Eddie,

God does not make abusers of children, or abusers of anything else.

He gave us all free will, to do what we want with it, rightly or wrongly, he gave us that right.

On the face of it, we could all have carried on with the cycle we were brought into, but we chose through our own free will to break it.

I remember seeing Christmas after abuse as a different World, one of wondering why so many children were so happy, when I could not be.

Envying other kids abandon, knowing that the World was so much more evil than they ever knew, it does f*ck you up, when you are taught so much about God as a child.

I believe in him, because there are so many miracles to behold, and he has always walked with me through all the bad times and never let me go.

I am so much more spiritual in life, I suppose I see life through a different spectrum than others I meet, I suppose we all do here.

I wonder WHY?

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#77597 - 01/16/05 03:24 AM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11055
Loc: Denver, CO
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that God does not make this bad stuff happen. People do it to each other in this fallen world. Funny that we want God to stand in the way of the bad stuff, but He doesn't do that any more than standing in the way of the good stuff. God allows man to make choices even it hurts or destroys others. If God is not going to block someone from making a choice to do good, it stands to reason he isn't going to block someone from making a choice to do evil. God stays out of our way. Otherwise we would not choose to love and obey Him.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#77598 - 01/16/05 04:13 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
Ok, I'll take the bait.

If God created all things, then God also created evil. If nothing existd before God, then there was no evil until God created it.

I know that I will get hammered on this, but just think on it. So you know, I am not religious (been there done that) but I am spiritual. Religion is a bureauracy for men (made by men for men), spirituality is for the individual to understand the nature of things within and without us, most of which is beyond our understanding. Hope tha makes some sense.

People must find their on path in life and of the spirit and I am NOT condemning or criticizing anyone's belief system. I am just putting in my $0.02 worth.

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

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#77599 - 01/16/05 11:01 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11055
Loc: Denver, CO
Yes, you could get a serious hammering on that one. ;\)

I don't look at it as "God created all things, therefore God created evil." I look at it as God created us with the power of choice. Since it is man who originates evil in his heart, you could say man created evil. It is the intent of mans' heart that makes something good or evil. Read about the flood in Genesis chapter 6, where God saw that every thought of mans' heart was evil continually. God did not create that evil, the hearts of those men at the time did. As free-moral agents, we can choose to do good or evil. We are separate individuals from God, so we can make choices apart from God. That does not place the blame on God, but man. To say God created evil places the blame on God, which is faulted logic. I can make choices apart from God, good or evil. If I make an evil choice, I am at fault.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#77600 - 01/17/05 12:22 AM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
On Good and Evil

It doesnít often occur to us, when we are judging God for His apparently fickle nature, that it is our imperfect understand that causes confusion. Perhaps it is not our place to judge the Creator of the universe. Its reason and methods are not in the scope of our comprehension. There is no intellectual exercise more futile than trying to figure out the reasoning of a Force so far beyond our reasoning.

In this creation, life feeds upon life, and death is a promise. Pain is everywhere. Does that necessarily mean that God is a sadist? Not necessarily. There could be a perfectly good reason for these thing and we are simply not privy to that reason. And there may be a good reason for that!

Who is wise enough to judge the methods of the Master, and who is strong enough to challenge Its intent?

If I were told of some great scheme to which my life were of some valuable participation, knowing the suffering that I would see, would I refuse to serve the Masters Plan? No. But that is just me, trying to make sense of something that is beyond my senses.

I cannot judge God or pretend to know His reasons. I can choose to act in the belief that It has a will and intention and I am a part of It. But you know what? I donít know anything about it beyond the fact that I am here and things happen. For good or ill. And I feel somewhat safer thinking that I am being a faithful servant, rather than a rebellious child shaking my fist at Heaven.

No pontificating intended. I know that I donít know any more about it than you. Just trying to make sense of it as best I can.

Aden


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#77601 - 01/17/05 04:44 AM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
Guys, I am not trying to be judgemental of anyone's beliefs. I am trying to make sense of all this the same as most here. Theological discussion has always been extremely interesting to me. It is a search for answers to what happened and why. I still am profoundly overloaded with guilt about what happened and the 40 years of not confronting what those several years of abuse screwed up my life. So I find the spirituality discussions very enlightening. So please understand that I am asking questions as much as making statements. So I will not take personnaly any disagreements anyone has with my postings in this forum. Feel free to challenge anything I say as it may help me to better understand this world we are in.

I feel free to discuss such issues here because no one else but those that have been put in the place we have (and I would include anyone that has been subjected to man's inhumanity to their fellow man [guess I should be PC and substitute person])can understand the things our minds contemplate.

I tried to find solace in the religion I was raised in, even became a lay minister, but I became aware that religions are more social than spiritual organizations. I am sure that this is why Jesus said that a man should go into his closet to pray. Spirituality is a very personal thing.

I never could quite get the idea of the trinity (with Satan, Lucifer, evil, whatever you may call it somehow just a separate thing out there somewhere), so in my personal view duality makes more sense.

I am aware that there is a power greater than we can comprehend and that it is in all of us. I think that this is what was meant when Genesis states that that we were created in God's image. To me, that means we are God-like. If so, then where does evil come from? God was aware of evil. That is why he warned man to not partake of the tree of knowledge. So if there was nothing but God in the beginning, was evil also a part of God or did it just appear without being created. Was it was created by man, or just became known to man when Adam and Eve ate from the tree?

I was not all that impressed with the movie "The Passion", but was in awe of one part. That one part I think spoke straight to my soul. That was when Jesus was agonizing over the events that were about to occur. The old saying that "we all have our cross to bear" came even more clear at that time. I was just beginning therapy when I watched the DVD. It became apparent that I had to find the courage to face my own cross and the sins that I had committed. My therapist says that my CSA caused me to become self-destructive, yet I had a choice to stop at any time. I am just now realizing that I was "hiding in the tree" and my salvation would be in facing what happened and conquering it, no matter how difficult.

My spriritual beliefs are still forming even after all these years of study. I feel that we, and all things, are all tied to each other with a spiritual bond. Dealing with my SA is the greatest step in finding my spiritual self, so please be patient with my questioning because I am seeking answers, not espousing certainties.

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

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#77602 - 01/17/05 01:47 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Glen Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Wisconsin
I went to a new church I had never gone to before and really felt like it fit me perfect. The minister was talking about since the fall from grace people choose to step away from God. He talked about debauchery(sp?) Debasing or spirit from what God intended. Thats what makes sense to me. God didnt choose this for us. Our perps had a free will just like we have a free will. I guess Im saying that the people who are responsible are the perps. We should only hold our perps accountible focus our anger on our perps..
Sorry about the angry theme.

_________________________
Please tell me why..

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#77603 - 01/20/05 05:49 PM Re: Abuse, Rejection, and God...
Bobby Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1287
Loc: Arizona
Angry...Mad...Pissed...Dismayed...Abandoned

I went to church all my life. Grandfather was a preacher. I didn't read children's books as a small child. He read to me out of the BIBLE instead. Church choir, president of the youth fellowship, went to Christian college, went to divinity school to become a minister, worked as a part of a church staff for three years, agree with the free will concept that God set it all in motion here we are to do with it as we can.

Father was dying slowly for the 20 years that I knew him...quadraplegic for 12 of those years, abused me for the 8 years he wasn't quadraplegic.
Father was a lay leader in the church...never cursed...never drank...just had sex with his son.

Father threw me on the floor when I was four and told me how awful and pitiful I was. Believed him.


Was made musical, soft, gay in a small town where football was the only thing.

Very fat as a child.

Probably raped in summer camp by a counselor at the age of 13.

Discovered being gay after had a family so stepped into the closet for 33 years.

Mother died...came bursting out of the closet, started having memories of SA, diagnosed as bi-polar.

In-laws fundamental Christians, say that I can still get into heaven because the reason I am gay is that I am possessed by a demon and that the demon is making all of my decisions.

I'm still a Christian. I still believe. I had a religious experience that I will never forget, can never give up.

Have laid on the floor at the front of the church and cried.

A part of me is angry, and it's a part of me that I cannot reason with. That part of me would love to walk into my church and look up at the altar and yell and scream at God for all of this. I know it's unreasonable. I know other people on earth have had a much tougher life than I have. I know it makes no sense. But there it is. In some way I connect God and my father. To yell at God is to rage at my father at the same time. I may actually do it one day just to get it all out of my system.

_________________________
I'm healing now, and I wasn't sure I would.




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