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#77566 - 12/17/04 05:23 PM A hateful end
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
I am not a Catholic. I am not even a Christian. But I am coming to despise the blind bigotry directed toward those honestly faithful souls who do so much good because of their faith.

It reminds me of back in the day when anti-nuclear power foes would drive to their protests outside the newest plant. 45,000 people perish in automobiles every year in America alone. Out of fear for what could maybe happen from a power plant accident, the protesting hoards loaded themselves into mobile coffins and demanded the end of universal enlightenment. Their success insured the 21st century “Oil Wars.”

The duality of human thought confuses me. We accept that which kills us daily out of fear of that which we think might kill us some day. We butcher the unborn out of convenience, and protest the convenience killing of human butchers. Children starve while little old ladies feed 27 cats. We save the whales and spotted owls while communities fall into ignorance and poverty. Then we condemn the communities for the ignorance and poverty into which we have cast them.

Do you think that evil will go away after you have subdued the church? Will abuse end when you have crushed the priesthood? Will you have everything you need when you have driven out all charity?

Condemn or forgive. Perpetuate or heal. You cannot have it both ways. Spit in the eye of the world or open your heart to the world. Overcome your fears or wallow in them. Am not suggesting it is easy. Just saying choose or lose.


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#77567 - 12/17/04 08:34 PM Re: A hateful end
estuardo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 45
Loc: ohio
"Do you think that evil will go away after you have subdued the church? Will abuse end when you have crushed the priesthood? Will you have everything you need when you have driven out all charity?"


Aden,

Not quite sure of your reasons for posting this, but I'm wondering if you understand why victim/survivors of clergy sex abuse are so 'up in arms' about what is going on.

If you have followed the sequence of events from the December 2001 Boston court ruling, the AD of Boston had to submit the documents regarding Geogan's (sp?) trial of sex abuse. What came from all of that was a very strong indication of collusion, conspiracy, and cover-up from the highest echelons of the Boston AD. Most people thought it was a fluke, I did, until more evidence shown up in the Bridgeport Conn. AD, then the NY AD, and so on, until you see the mess there is today.

What myself, and most other clergy abuse V/S want is the church to come clean, be accountable. They are using something considered sacred, holy, and making it into a 'den of thieves'.

As you have seen anywhere else, if you get caught, the law will fulfill it's purpose. So far, when the church gets caught, it manages to wiggle out of it. One has to wonder, who is pulling the strings.

I never fathomed that the church would do such stuff, even up to the point of this scandal breaking. My naive thoughts have only led me down the wrong path. I understand better now, and like everyone here, want those who are guilty to be put in prison, repent, and let the forgiveness process begin.

I've forgiven my abuser, but he won't accept it, because he doesn't see anything he has done as wrong. The church feels the same way.

BTW-the only thing I consider worse than a person who sexually abuses somebody, is somebody who knows about it, but does nothing, or worse yet, is part of the cover-up. The church still has many priests who fall in the cover-up category. Makes me wonder what else they are hiding.

_________________________
"I'm entitled to my opinion...even if it's wrong."

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#77568 - 12/18/04 02:22 AM Re: A hateful end
Rustam Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 470
Loc: UK
Hi Aden,

I take your point about blind bigotry against the Catholic Church, I know there are many good conscientious priests and religious in the church, they do a lot that is good. I have a couple of uncle priests and aunts who are nuns. They were good people in my childhood and never abused anyone as far as I know.

Having said that I am a big critic of the way the church has failed even now to respond to the ‘abuse crisis’. In the Ireland I grew up in they were the most powerful and trusted people in our society, no one would dare challenge them, that trust has been abused in such appalling ways. I am so happy that the truth is at last coming out. I for one am shedding no tears for their loss of power in Ireland, its good for the society and can be good for them too. My own experience has been that there are normal decent people in the church but as an institution it is and I expect always has been institutionally abusive. Their own doctrine is that we must confess our sins to be forgiven, when they start practicing that themselves I think their critics can lay off.

They have been in business for two thousand years and are the biggest denomination in the world so I don’t see them getting crushed anytime soon. The church can change and improve. It’s sad that it is those whom they hurt so terribly who have to hold up the mirror for them, they are still largely refusing to look at themselves. I think it is only fair that those brave enough to stand up to the abusive aspects of the church be heard and supported.

I agree that individual priests should not suffer bigotry or prejudice because of their faith, and I have felt uncomfortable with some of the barely concealed crowing of other Christians around this.

Thanks for the post.

Rustam


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#77569 - 12/20/04 03:17 PM Re: A hateful end
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
You are perfectly correct. I am ashamed of the church which informed my spirit. But I know that the faithful live among them. Let those who are honest in their hearts carry the torch. Let them be our faithful servants. Destruction of the Church will only lead to moral ambiguity.

If we succeed in driving God out of society, we will live in a Godless world. Some may want that. I am not one of them. The authority to appoint morality was not given to me. But the certainty that morality is a necessary function of human civilization is an unquestionable fact. We must have rules and those rules must come from above the laws of man.

I am not unaware of the abuses which occur in the Church. The Church will evolve. It takes time. While it has its detractors, it must also have its defenders. The fact that I am not a Catholic or a Christian makes me a fair defender of the faith.

Aden


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#77570 - 12/20/04 05:01 PM Re: A hateful end
estuardo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 45
Loc: ohio
Aden,

Why would you defend something you have admitted you know little about, and make remarks that are considered inflammatory to those who suffered at the hands of these creeps. Then, they get further abused by the system that covers it up.

What this scandal has done, is smear God's good name, and many want these leaders to stop their behavior, be accountable, and behave the way God had instructed us all to do.

I make no apologies, when it comes to the church getting it's nose rubbed in it's own poop. The ego-maniacal, pompous arrogance, of the Catholic leadership, needs to be addressed, and those who sit in the pews have every right to question, even demand, that they be thrown out, if they are not obeying the laws (rules) God has given us.

Voice of the Faithful's motto is: Keep the Faith, Change the Church. Makes sense to me.

_________________________
"I'm entitled to my opinion...even if it's wrong."

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#77571 - 12/20/04 06:43 PM Re: A hateful end
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
I think that Reformation is long overdue in most churches, even that church for whom the Reformation happened.
Some folks get it just right, with a balance of dogma and giving.
I know of a congregation that gives away 25% off the top of it's budget. That is to say, that they take 25% of the, "plate," and give it to the community in which they live. On top of that, they organize give aways for school supplies and clothes for kids who cannot afford such luxuries. They plan and support meals for the homeless and less fortunate. They supply clothes and blankets and canned goods for the needy. The Socail Concerns Committee has 32 projects in which they are involved with volunteers and money.
As a matter of fact, these poeple epitomize those who have a sign at the main exit of their church that reads, "Servants Entrance."
These members are truly trying to live a Christian life in the midst of selfishness and materialism. They seem to have come to grips with, doing, instead of, just saying.
What do they require to belong to such a congregation? That's the hard part. All are welcome. No tythe is required or requested, simply encouraged as to the amount one feels one can give. Attendence is optional. How can you run a congregation like this and expect anyone to do or give, anything? It's kinda cool. It's a small congregation, by some standards, 500 or so, total, attend the three services each Sunday.
And, it has more men than women in its choir.
All in all, it's one of the most dynamic congregations I've ever seen. Maybe, one of these days, I'll re-join.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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