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#76855 - 05/07/03 05:35 PM The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Recently I have recovered more detailed memories about this, especially in my neck, shoulders & back, always my worst pain areas anyway.

Thus I am getting more body therapy work done especially in these areas, trying to heal those bad body memories, with my massage T & chiropractor.

After I told my chiro about the SIS, he mentioned an exercise for me to do called 70 x 7. I am to for the next week write out in longhand "I forgive
my father for everything" 70 times a day which will in a week equal 490 times. Then I can do the same with my mother or anyone else.

My chiro says he has done exercises like this as part of a group and found it very helpful for many
as simple & kinda silly as it sounds.

But as he says its not for my father its for me so I figure it can't hurt to try.


"Then Peter came and said to Him, 'Lord, if a brother sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'Not seven times, but seventy times seven."
(Gospel of Matthew Chapter 18 verses 21 & 22).

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76856 - 05/07/03 07:52 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
Victor,

I've always found interest in the>

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#76857 - 05/08/03 12:03 AM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Sandy:

Actually there is a lot of debate about what brother means as it can be talking about a Christian brother (or sister) within the church, or a brother (or sister) in the human race.

My tendency is to agree with those who say the latter, as I can't see why such forgiveness would only apply from one Christian to another. Christians should be forgiving of everyone. Of course whether a person who is not a Christian chooses to practice this kind of forgiveness is their choice. Ultimately it's everybody's choice one way or another.

It is commonly believed that Jesus was not actually saying to forgive exactly 490 times then on 491 punch the sucker out! But He was saying to forgive so much you lose count or don't keep track.

Also 7 in the Bible is a number indicating perfection so that Jesus was in essence saying forgive times multiples of perfection, or more than perfectly. Meaning don't just stop with what you think may be perfect, like Peter with his 7 times--which was actually quite generous as teachers of his day were espousing 3 times.

I also think this was Jesus' way of saying forgiveness is a process that doesn't just happen all at once or easily. Also that it is something we do mainly for ourselves not those we forgive.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76858 - 05/08/03 07:49 AM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
Victor,

I understand why we ought forgive. If we don't we don't we don't receive forgiveness ourselves. But isn't forgiveness dependant on repentance? "If your brother suns, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent', forgive him." - Luke 17:4

This is exactly how Paul addressed the Corinthians in his second letter to them. So distressed by them he had changed his plans to visit them. In his distress over their continued sin he rebuked them. He also continued to say, "If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. ". - 2 Corinthians 2:5-7

That's a tough act to follow. Knowing by not forgiving we make the person who offended us feel worse, and not doing so? Really, who wants to make the person who hurt us feel better?

So what I've been thinking, is, what is forgiveness anyway? I guess its a choice and once we make up our minds, our hearts will eventually follow.

Sandy

--------

"I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness" --Don Henley


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#76859 - 05/08/03 03:49 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
But isn't forgiveness dependant on repentance? "If your brother suns, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent', forgive him." - Luke 17:4
His (or her) forgiveness is dependent on his or her repentance. But that part of forgiving that has to do with you, your own well-being & peace of mind, has nothing to do with any response or even knowledge by the other person, which you can't do a thing about anyway.

Quote:
This is exactly how Paul addressed the Corinthians in his second letter to them. So distressed by them he had changed his plans to visit them. In his distress over their continued sin he rebuked them. He also continued to say, "If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent - not to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. ". - 2 Corinthians 2:5-7

That's a tough act to follow. Knowing by not forgiving we make the person who offended us feel worse, and not doing so? Really, who wants to make the person who hurt us feel better?
Sandy it may be important in this instance to remember that Paul is talking about a specific person & incident. In many instances a person will care less whether we forgive or not. Also I have to consider if I don't forgive, whether the other person knows or cares or not, how it affects me. Can't worry about how it affects the other person, as I have no control over that.

Having said that yes the temptation is great to withhold forgiveness say from my perps to get back at them. But even if they knew or could care less, I've found this eats away at me way too much and it ends up being just another way they continue to abuse & control me.

No more of that!

Quote:
So what I've been thinking, is, what is forgiveness anyway? I guess its a choice and once we make up our minds, our hearts will eventually follow.

Sandy
Yes forgiveness I believe is definitely a choice.

--------

Quote:
"I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness" --Don Henley
Me too.

Thanks for sharing Sandy.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76860 - 05/08/03 04:21 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
Victor,

Okay, so I have a little problem in the forgiveness area (duh?). I think I get wrapped up in these misconceptions:

- that forgive means forget
- that forgiving means there is no consequence and that I should act like nothing ever happened with some stupid Mary Poppins attitude
- that forgiveness is immediate, not a process

So, how do you get beyond that and truly experience heartfelt forgiveness, especially when you have a lot to forgive of lately?

Sandy


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#76861 - 05/08/03 06:09 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I doubt very much that John Paul Sartre was a religious man at all. But he wrote this.

Quote:
"If you are not already dead, forgive, rancour is heavy, it is worldly; leave it on earth; die light.
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#76862 - 05/08/03 08:08 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Victor,

Okay, so I have a little problem in the forgiveness area (duh?). I think I get wrapped up in these misconceptions:

- that forgive means forget
- that forgiving means there is no consequence and that I should act like nothing ever happened with some stupid Mary Poppins attitude
- that forgiveness is immediate, not a process
Sandy you're sure not alone in this. I think a lot of people get so confused by these misconceptions they think they're not forgiving when they are and walk around with all this false guilt. Been there done that.

If forgive meant forget I'd have automatically forgiven a long time ago when I couldn't remember a thing! I think I forgot long enuf and it's time to remember, and never forget again.

Definitely don't think forgiving means no consequences. Just becuz a perp is forgiven does not mean they shouldn't be prosecuted & punished to the fullest extent of the law. God knows we've had our share & then some of the consequences of their abusing us. It's not about revenge (at least not for me, tho its tempting) its about justice. To act like nothing ever happened to me would just be more denial. Done more than my share of that already thank you but no thanks.

Few things in life are as immediate as we might like them to be and as the advertisers try to tell us they are. Forgiveness sure ain't one of them. Have I forgiven my perps? I'm in the process. It's not a matter of I have or I haven't.
It's a matter of I am or I'm not, in the process.

Quote:
So, how do you get beyond that and truly experience heartfelt forgiveness, especially when you have a lot to forgive of lately?

Sandy
Sandy getting beyond the misconceptions, and the bad feelings & pain, is well painful & it feels bad. I couldn't begin to do it, begin the process,
until I recalled, admitted, & named my SA, until the pain of not forgiving became greater than the perceived pain of forgiving. I cannot depend on my feelings in this, but only on what I believe & what I believe I need to do for myself. Its not for my perps its for me.

Hope that rambling helps Sandy. Take your time take it easy on yourself & take care.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76863 - 05/08/03 08:12 PM Re: The Mathematics of Forgiveness?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
I doubt very much that John Paul Sartre was a religious man at all. But he wrote this.

Quote:
"If you are not already dead, forgive, rancour is heavy, it is worldly; leave it on earth; die light.
Dave
Dave how deeply I believe this to be true in my own experience. Thanks for sharing it.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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