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#76802 - 03/24/03 05:30 AM Another war - religious portion of my response
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
This is the religious portion of my response from the "Another war" thread in the unmoderated forum found here:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000029#000017

That was pretty close to my oppinion Victor, but then I was thinking about the old testament in the book of Samuel when the kingdoms surrounding Isreal all had kings and Isreal did not. The people feared they would overun by the nations with kings. They were not content to let God be thier king. So they asked for a king. God warned them that they would not be happy with a king, but they persisted. Eventually he gave them the exact king they wanted, he looked like and acted like a king. But like many kings, he was corrupt, and eventually they wished they didnt have a king.

I believe its the same kind of thing with Iraq. We are not trusting in God enough to take care of us. We feel we have to take matters into our own hands. But I say, if its not God's will for us to be nuked, we wont be. If it is his plan that we get nuked, I dont know how, but we would probably be better for it. I think if we just prayed as a country for God's will to be done regarding Iraq and nukes we would be better off.

There is also another old testment story, I think from Deuteronomy where they are wandering in the desert and they are sick of manna and they want quail. Well God gives them more quail than they could ever ask for, and they were wailing in agony as a result. I don't remember if they were begging for the manna they didnt want as a result. I think if we take these kind of matters into our own hands we are going to get quail one way or another in this Iraq crisis. When Jesus prayed in the garden before he was betrayed, he said something like please take this cup from me, but not my will, but yours be done. If he insisted and God's will was not done, I don't even want to think of where we would be.

So anyway, that sums up my oppinion on the matter. I think this is different than liberating Kuwait or world war II. I think we are taking matters into our own hands and pushing for our will to be done and as a result we might get quail.

As for our military superiority over Iraq, who can argue about it, but history is full of David and Goliath wars (the revolutionary war is a good example). I'm not saying they are going to win, I dont think it is going to be good for any country involved. It wouldnt surprise me if the hand writing is on the wall to a certain degree for us and Iraq. I believe our Jerry Springer society and Iraq's dictatorship could both use some sobering correction.

peace
MO Healing


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#76803 - 03/25/03 04:04 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mo,

As you probably know, we could run thru the Bible and find stories or verses that seem to be for or against war depending on what kind of war, time, circumstances, etc.

I guess my view may be a bit more interactive than what you're saying, meaning I think that while we trust in God that ultimately He is in control & His is the power, He works in & thru us, and wants us to be available for that, even in international matters and matters of war.

Whether that means he wants us to do anything, or if doing anything just means praying & waiting on Him, particularly in the Operation Iraqi Freedom matter, is of course open to debate. Especially since I'm not even defining who "we" are.

My point is that when wicked people are abusing others, somebody needs & is no doubt called to do something, whether on an international or a family level.

Who? How? In this instance particularly I don't know. I'm not arguing so much in favor of the war as in opposition to those who are protesting it & don't seem to know or care what in hell's bathroom they're protesting about, especially the Hollywood crowd.

I'm--and this is another point--not in favor of any war, ideally. That includes the war of sexual assault that has been declared across the world by wicked leaders & their cronies, whether in Iraq or Hollywood. It's just that that's a war that is a matter of particular sensitivity to me.

When it comes right down to it, I still agree in ideal with Edwin Starr:

"War! Good God ya'll! What is it good for?"

"Absolutely nothin!"

But this sure as shootin ain't no ideal world!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76804 - 03/26/03 07:32 AM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I see your point Victor, There are a lot of attrocities in that dictatorship. On the other hand, I don't think its the attrocities that caused the war. I think that the cause of the war is to prevent the use of nukes, bio or chemical weapons by terrorists linked to Saddam.

But I have heard of something called the heiresy of quietism, which is where you sit back and don't do anything. There is that story about the guy who was waiting for God to save him when he was shipwrecked in the middle of the ocean and hanging on a life preserver. One ship comes by and he turns down thier offer to rescue him because he is waiting for God to save him. Second ship, same thing, third ship same thing. Finally he drowns. He gets to the gates of heaven and he says "why didn't you save me?" and God says "who do you think sent the boats?!"

So I see your point and I understand the heiresy of quietism. But regardless, I think this might be a really big wake up call for all countries involved. Also in my prayer group, one of the women was talking about the "if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword" passage, and also the "sell your cloak and buy a sword" passage. I think she was trying to figure out the moral implications of being a soldier. But in the John the Baptist portion of the bible, the soldiers and tax collectors come to him and ask what they should do and he doesn't say not to be soldiers, but not to practice extortion. Basically to be honest soldiers. So I don't know.

As far as Hollywood goes, who cares. They have pretty much rewritten the gospel over so many times they have no idea what is right and wrong. I don't know if youve heard of Fatima but the messages say that world war two was a punishment for the sins of mankind. Who knows, naybe this war is too. Thanks for writing back.

Peace
MO Healing


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#76805 - 03/26/03 02:00 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
moo2 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 82
Loc: pottsboro,texas
There are just too many stories in the Bible to know just from the stories of what is right right now. We need to rely on the Holy Spirit + pray whether we are doing God's will or not.
I think that it is God's will to liberate the Iraqi people, but then I know that our Lord will be coming back even sooner than I want. SURPRIZE!!!!
Victor, I do want more people to realize that there is more to life than SA. Changing is difficult for me. I am having to change a heck of a lot since Jan 27 + with this war + me admitting that I need help to change my body's reaction to sex.
SORRY THAT I GOT OFF ON SOME VENTING, I NEEDED IT.
It is not POLITICALLY CORRECT to kill some wicked people who are just SA people. Espeally from another country. This is not the way Christians should think, but it is the world's thinking. People's thinking is so screwed up!!! Watch the most popular TV show today. The protesting is just news.
I am so glad that I do not have a TV, that all I can do is trust God with this war. I have always thought that Bush should have started this war a lot sooner. I think Bush put all of this into prayer + I know that this is God's perfect timing.
God is never late, but rarely early. :rolleyes:
Talk to you later.
WITH MUCH LOVE,
Kim


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#76806 - 03/26/03 03:32 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Mo:

You're right of course. I do think some of leaders & soldiers are thinking about the atrocities committed by Saddam's regime, tho I doubt if too many are thinking about the SA that has been committed. The primary concern does seem to be to stop further terrorism & use of chemical weapons & weapons of mass destruction.

Still, any serendipitous side effects against SA suit me more than fine!

Quietism or activism? Fight or protest? Soldier or civilian? Terrorism or war against it? Just war or unjust?

Mo, these things sure aren't black & white are they bro?

Peace indeed my friend.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76807 - 03/26/03 03:36 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Kim,

Yes, thank God there is much more to life than SA or abuse or evil of any kind!

Don't apologize for venting, it can be very healthy & healing.

Wow, I should be the picture of health by now! :rolleyes: \:D

Yes, God wants the Iraqi people liberated. He wants all people liberated. And the truth shall liberate us!

Thanks Kim

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76808 - 03/26/03 07:58 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I agree with you both that it is probably part of God's plan to liberate the Iraqi people. But I also am left to wonder what kind of correction this war will rpovide for us. I remember after 9-11 my church almost doubled its attendance in the following weeks, but so far this war has not done the same thing. But we'll see what happens, Bush announced recently, he does not think this one will be over that quickly. My wife's cousin just got back from Bahrain a month ago or so and he said you can not immagine the hatred in the middle east for the American people, and Bahrain is supposed to be on our side. When my brother was there in 1990 it was a totally different deal.

Praying for peace
MO Healing


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#76809 - 03/28/03 08:12 AM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I found this quote which pretty much sums up my oppinion on the matter:

Mother Teresa said, "I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."

Peace
MO Healing


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#76810 - 03/28/03 04:46 PM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
I found this quote which pretty much sums up my oppinion on the matter:

Mother Teresa said, "I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."

Peace
MO Healing
Mother Teresa is a truly amazing woman of faith & wisdom & love.

Mo, I heartily "Amen!" this!

My belief is if you're going to criticize what someone else is doing about something or the way they're going about it, then you ought to be ready
to do something better about it, and help others find a better way.

Otherwise the criticism is not constructive but destructive. This is not what the people fighting this war need, whether we agree with it or not.

Could we find and begin to carry out a better way,
I suspect most of them would be outta there like a whirlwind!

But I've heard no better ideas from the "whine & cheese crowd" and I don't think that's what they care about. Nor have I yet seen any of them heading to Iraq to stand in front of Saddam Hussein to "protect" him. These people have been acting & politicing so long they are out of touch with reality. I think they just wanna gripe & get noticed becuz they are "famous."

Might not be the kind of attention they want!

Another thing I believe that Mother Teresa indicates is that I (I'll speak for myself) need to focus more on the positives than the negatives,
what I should do more than what I (or they) shouldn't.

Jesus didn't say "blessed are those who are anti-war" (or anti-anything). He said "Blessed are the peacemakers."

It might be good for all people to consider the reasons why, whatever they may believe or feel about Jesus.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76811 - 03/30/03 04:16 AM Re: Another war - religious portion of my response
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I agree Victor,

I would like to see more positive demonstrations. Instead of holding up anti war signs, maybe they could hold up signs with thier suggestions to the Iraq crisis. Or better yet just hold up signs that say peace and do it peacefully. I remember the anti war protests from the Vietnam era were anything but pro peace rallies. I would like to see a true pro peace rally. People promoting peace in a positive light, not spitting on soldiers and burning flags and all that other crap. Ghandi seemed like a real pro peace kind of a guy. He never screamed angrily or attacked police or took over buildings or took hostages.

I think those anti war rallies just twisted people's perceptions of what true peace means into something they don't want. When I think of the Vietnam era peace rallies I don't remember anything peaceful about them. They seemed to proclaim themselves as ethically superior to those who promoted war, but I didn't see anything ethical in that anti war culture.

The messages of Medjugorje are primarily messages promoting peace. The messages are from God through Mary promoting peace starting with peace between man and God. Then peace within ourselves, then within our families and work places, then our communities etc. The messages started in Bosnia ten years to the day before Croatia declared war on Serbia. The first message was an urgent call to peace.

More alarming were the visions of Kibeho, Rwanda in Africa. The message was an urgent call to turn back to God. Some of the visionaries were shown visions of a river of blood. Several years later the Rwandan holocaust took place. Estimates placed the death toll at between 20 to 40 percent of the population. So many bodies massacred by machettes were thrown into the Kagera river, it literally looked like a river of blood.

I'm getting off the topic, but to sum it up I think we need to spread pro-peace and not anti-war.

Peace
MO Healing


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