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#76697 - 02/17/03 12:04 AM What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Bishops speak out on clergy sexual abuse
May 3, 2002 News media contact: M. Garlinda Burton· (615)742-5102· Nashville, Tenn. {201}

BLOOMINGTON, Minn. (UMNS) — Bishops of the United Methodist Church declared May 3 that clerics who "abuse children or who are sexual predators" will not be "shielded or protected" by church authorities.

With high-profile cases among Catholic clergy raising awareness worldwide, the 150-member Council of Bishops vowed at its semi-annual meeting to "prevent and eradicate sexual abuse and misconduct" from all levels of church life.

In fact, the United Methodist Church has worked for more than 20 years to strengthen the laws in its Book of Discipline regarding ethical and moral conduct of clergy, said Bishop Sharon Rader, council secretary and leader of the church's Wisconsin Area.

"We had this issue on our agenda before all the media attention to the Catholic clergy story," Rader explained. Bishops are charged with reviewing denominational processes concerning clergy conduct, she added.

In 1992, United Methodism's international legislative assembly asked all of the church's regional units, called annual conferences, to develop by the year 2000 policies and procedures for addressing sexual misconduct by clergy and lay employees. Those policies range from provisions for church trials to steps for stripping errant clergy of their ministerial orders.

At their Bloomington meeting, the bishops spent several hours in closed sessions, reviewing church policies and procedures for dealing with clergy and lay employee misconduct. Church legal advisers also were consulted.

The United Methodist Church has 9.7 million members worldwide. United Methodists represent the third largest Christian body in the United States with 8.4 million members, behind the Roman Catholics and Southern Baptists. The United Methodist Church has about 36,000 local congregations and 40,000 clergy in the United States.

# # #

The complete text of the bishops' statement follows.

Sexual Abuse in the Church

There is little doubt that sexual abuse by clergy or representative lay ministers in church and society is troubling for our communities and congregations worldwide. Such violations of sacred trust, particularly child or sexual abuse, are devastating to those victimized and all persons affected. Further, these acts damage the integrity of the church's witness.

As members of the Council of Bishops of The United Methodist Church, we affirm our resolve to prevent and eradicate sexual abuse and misconduct in the church. We reaffirm our commitment to compassion, justice and healing for those harmed.

We are committed to addressing sexual misconduct promptly and forthrightly for the healing of all concerned, especially victims and congregations. Clergy and other persons within our communion who abuse children or who are sexual predators will not be knowingly shielded or protected. They shall be held accountable as The Book of
Discipline demands and Church order expects.

Given these historic affirmations, we joined in the following actions in our semi-annual meeting:

· Prayed for victims, offenders, families and the world church including ourselves.
· Reviewed the church's response to this issue over the last twenty years.
· Re-affirmed our policies and protocol for responding to allegations of misconduct.
· Identified existing resources available for the church.
· Committed ourselves anew to the highest ethical standards of our Office and living lives that reflect the gospel.

The Council of Bishops of The United Methodist Church
May 3, 2002
Minneapolis, Minn.

http://www.umns.umc.org

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76698 - 02/17/03 02:22 AM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Chey-Wy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 241
Loc: Cheyenne, WY
Victor,

Thanks for posting this. I have been attending the Methodist church here since I left the Presbyterian church. I have talked with Janet (the minister) at the Methodist church about my situation and also with Nadine (the minister of congregational care at First Methodist). Both of them are great friends. Nadine's daughter was sexually assaulted by her step brother so when I told her she was very empathatic. The church Methodist church is just very understanding.


Quote:
With high-profile cases among Catholic clergy raising awareness worldwide, the 150-member Council of Bishops vowed at its semi-annual meeting to "prevent and eradicate sexual abuse and misconduct" from all levels of church life.
That is what is so disturbing about the Presbyterian church. They still will not take any responsibility for what Dr. Laughlin did to me. That is one of the things that we are asking for in our letter to the church. " That they implement steps to insure that this never happens to another person."

Good night all.

John

_________________________
From the Song MOUNTAINS by Lonestar.

Yeah, the good Lord gave us mountains,
So we could learn how to climb

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#76699 - 02/17/03 10:40 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Chey:I spoke to you in another post and am glad that you do have some good friends to talk to about this. Do not give up brother.

On a lighter note John I hava long wondered what your state and city are like. I was born and raised in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Alberta Canada on a ranch. We lived 20 miles from the nearest town; Pincher Creek. I would be surprised if you had every heard of it. But the country was beautiful. Tell us a little bit about your corner of the world. I, and I think others would like to hear about it through your eyes.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#76700 - 02/17/03 10:52 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
John:

I'm glad you've found a good church to attend. I'm a member of TUMC (The United Methodist Church)myself. It has its' flaws for sure, but I'm proud of how TUMC as a whole deals with clergy sexual abuse or harrassment.

Our NC Conference area just recently revamped it's policy on clergy sexual misconduct; I know becuz I participated in the revamping.

I'm sure there are cases of CSA by UMC clergy, tho I know of none personally. (Someone here at MS gave me a link to a site about clergy CSA that on a large list gave one accusation against a UMC minister, not by the child; it was vague & no charges were brought in the end.) I'm also sure they are dealt with with appropriate severity.

TUMC also has manuals & programs & training for making churches safe places, sanctuaries, for children especially. I also know all ministers recently attended required (strictly enforced) workshops with qualified specialists on what is or even what could be construed as clergy sexual misconduct, avoiding potentially compromising situations, safety measures & boundaries, building up healthy relationships, etc.

OK I'm bragging on my church. But it is important for us to know, & be glad, that some churches are really trying to do something about SA, at least as far as prevention, which is where to start.

Now I'd like to see churches doing more to acknowledge survivors, give them "sanctuary," and help them heal.

Hmmmm.....

Anyone else got any ideas about that out there? Any experiences to share?

Victor

PS: BTW John, I'm gonna post seperately, in this thread, about what the Presbyterian Church-USA says they are doing about CSA. I don't know if this is the branch of the Presbyterian Church the church you went to is part of our not. But I thot it might be of some interest, and maybe somehow helpful. It's a good statement, if they're doing what it says.

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76701 - 02/17/03 10:56 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
This is the statement on clergy CSA of the Presbyterian Church-USA:

Sexual abuse in any form is never permissible'
Leaders' letter calls attention to PC(USA) policies, touts resources.
Article appeared in the May 16, 2002 edition of the Presbyterian News Service.
by John Filiatreau

LOUISVILLE — The current furor over child-sexual-abuse charges against Roman Catholic clergy around the United States has prompted leaders of the Presbyterian Church (USA) to remind stated clerks and synod and presbytery executives of PC(USA) policies and resources on child abuse and its prevention.

A pastoral letter, dated May 9, was dispatched over the signatures of the Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the 213th General Assembly; the Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick, stated clerk of the PC(USA); and John Detterick, executive director of the General Assembly Council (GAC).

“We believe that sexual abuse constitutes sinful behavior and violates the teachings of the Church as well as the covenantal relationship by which we are called to live with God and with one another,” they wrote. “Sexual abuse in any form is never permissible.”

The letter calls officials' attention to a sexual-misconduct policy adopted by the 205th General Assembly (GA) in 1993, as well as “Standards of Ethical Conduct” for PC(USA) members, employees, volunteers and ordained officers approved by the 210th GA in 1998. Both documents are available through the PC(USA) Web site.

It also recommends two church-produced resources on child abuse, both of which are available online or from Presbyterian Distribution Service.

The letter concludes, “If you are aware of or have been victim to sexual abuse, please speak with someone you trust within your congregation or your presbytery.”

The full text:
Friends and colleagues in Christ —
Recently, considerable public attention is being given to child sexual abuse by clergy and the response of churches when such abuse is discovered. It seems particularly important to remind Presbyterians of our policies that provide for quick and decisive resolutions if an allegation of sexual abuse is made.

According to Scripture, we are each created in the image and likeness of God and the church in polity and policy respects the integrity and value of each human person.

We believe that sexual abuse constitutes sinful behavior and violates the teachings of the Church as well as the covenantal relationship by which we are called to live with God and with one another. Sexual abuse in any form is never permissible.

The policies of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) regarding abuse enable us to act for justice, healing and restoration.

All ministry in the church is a gift from Jesus Christ. Members and officers alike serve mutually under the mandate of Christ: the one who came “not to be served but to serve.” When a minister within the P.C. (U.S.A.) commits sexual abuse, it ruptures relationships, abuses the power and authority of ministry, and violates the very essence of the church of Christ as the body of Christ through which a new world reality as revealed by God is made available to everyone.

In 1993, the 205th General Assembly adopted a sexual misconduct policy that unequivocally states that sexual abuse is not only a violation of the principles set forth in Scripture but also of the ministerial and professional relationships. In 1998, the 210th General

Assembly adopted Standards of Ethical Conduct for members, employees and volunteers, and ordained officers in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). These policies may be accessed through the P.C. (U.S.A.) website at http://www.pcusa.org or through your presbytery.

The policies in conjunction with the Scriptures, the Constitution and more particularly, the Rules of Discipline, provide a means to prevent and eliminate sexual abuse within the church, to seek justice in determining the truth of allegations, to provide justice and retribution for persons involved, and to assure appropriate care and healing for all parties.

Two resources specifically directed toward the prevention of child abuse are additionally available. In 1993, the Child Abuse Ministry Project prepared a resource titled “Surely Heed Their Cry: A Presbyterian Guide to Child Abuse Prevention, Intervention and Healing.” In 2002, the Child Advocacy Office prepared “We Won't Let it Happen Here! Preventing Child Abuse in the Church” (2nd edition). These are available through the Presbyterian Distribution Service at 1-800-524-2612 or via the web at http://www.pcusa.org/marketplace.

Many presbyteries and congregations have also adopted sexual misconduct and/or abuse policies and procedures in conjunction with the General Assembly policies. If you are aware of or have been victim to sexual abuse, please speak with someone you trust within your congregation or your presbytery.

May the Peace of Christ be yours,
Jack Rogers, moderator, 213th General Assembly
Clifton Kirkpatrick, stated clerk, PC(USA)
John Detterick, executive director, GAC

http://www.pcusa.org


Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76702 - 02/17/03 11:58 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Lets just say that I am a lapsed CATHOLIC. Nothing ever happened to my related to the Church but I take exception to their stonewalling on every issue put forth. They are more interested in their money,power and sanctimounious holier than though attitude. God will they never learn.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#76703 - 02/18/03 03:25 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Chey-Wy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 241
Loc: Cheyenne, WY
\:\(

Victor,

Thanks for posting that. I forwarded it on to my attorney.

The Church that I was sexually assaulted in here in Cheyenne is a part of the Presbyterian Church U S A (PCUSA) system. I just have to wonder if the current minister has read this policy.


Quote:
The policies of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) regarding abuse enable us to act for justice, healing and restoration.
Let's see here.

"Tellling me that it is my problem ..... deal with it. "

I guess that would fall under healing.

Threatening me with a Slander Lawsuit when I told him I was no longer embarased and was ready to tell what the F***ing Bastard did to me.

I don't know what threats falls under. Maybe that falls under justice .... if we keep the victim quiet then we protect ourselves.

Quote:
The policies in conjunction with the Scriptures, the Constitution and more particularly, the Rules of Discipline, provide a means to prevent and eliminate sexual abuse within the church, to seek justice in determining the truth of allegations, to provide justice and retribution for persons involved, and to assure appropriate care and healing for all parties.
How can they prevent and eliminate if they won't even admit that it happened. I have been ignored whith my allegations for the last 10 years. I think that the policy should be rewritten to read provide a means to cover up and hide sexual abuse within the church

The line that says assure appropriate care and healing for all parties invloved is really a F***ING joke. All we are asking the church to do is to pay for my therapy and to find me affordable health insurance ( I am being denied coverage because I have the Mental health black mark on my record)

Quote:
A Presbyterian Guide to Child Abuse Prevention, Intervention and Healing.” In 2002, the Child Advocacy Office prepared “We Won’t Let it Happen Here! Preventing Child Abuse in the Church” (2nd edition).
I think a more appropriate title of this book should be " "We Won't Let it Happen Here, And We Will Deny It If It Does"

Quote:
If you are aware of or have been victim to sexual abuse, please speak with someone you trust within your congregation or your presbytery.
I did tell someone I have been telling people within the church what had happened to me for the last 10 years. What F***ing good did/does it do? They won't listen. If we ignore him and threaten him with slander lawsuits maybe he will go away.

As you can probably tell. I am F***ING PISSED

I am sure that they spent thousands of dollars to write this policy. But implementing the policy

THAT IS F***ING DIFFERENT THING ALL TOGETHER.

_________________________
From the Song MOUNTAINS by Lonestar.

Yeah, the good Lord gave us mountains,
So we could learn how to climb

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#76704 - 02/18/03 06:53 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
John. You mentioned that you received envelopes from perp # 3. Do you still know where he lives.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#76705 - 02/18/03 07:09 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Chey-Wy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 241
Loc: Cheyenne, WY
Mike,

He declared bankruptcy to get out of the charges and moved to Phoenix AZ.

_________________________
From the Song MOUNTAINS by Lonestar.

Yeah, the good Lord gave us mountains,
So we could learn how to climb

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#76706 - 02/18/03 11:19 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
John:

Talk about NOT practicing what you preach! :rolleyes:

What this policy calls for and what is being done for you are worlds apart, and it will take a lot more than a bunch of paper on ink to bring them together. It takes the heart and the spirit behind these letters--if they were written with any at all!

I'm sick of laws and policies that go unenforced and are apparently written just to pacify people into thinking something is actually being done!

I'm far sicker of what this does to friends like you!... \:\(

We can only hope that when your attorney gets this policy, he can use it to motivate these "church people" who continue by their actions, or inaction, to perpetrate SA against you...

Take care brother

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76707 - 02/18/03 11:34 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
John. That is a real bummer but cant you persue the bastard to find out at least his address. Maybe your attorney could help you. What I am leading up to is that it might be good for you to write the prick a letter, send it registered, and tell him that you have not forgotten and that you have not made up your mind if you will let all his associates know what he has done or get in touch with the authorities and let them know what he is like. But you are gonna do something. I think that way you might really take control and let the asshole sweat a whole lot. I cannot believe that the shit can get away with it by declaring bankruptcy and moving. Surely the authorities in Phoenix would help you. What does your attorney say??? I just think it would give you a whole lot of satisfaction and control. Put the FEAR into HIM. You are telling him he cannot hide and I think that would be very powerful for you.
My brother I really hope we can meet with others here sometime in the future cause I feel that all of us have developed something special. I would be proud to call you a real friend.
Take care and be kind to yourself.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#76708 - 02/19/03 03:59 AM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Chey-Wy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 241
Loc: Cheyenne, WY
Mike, Victor,

Thanks for the support. I think that maybe I need to clarify my perps. There have been three ( actually 4 )

  • 1/2 The first perps were the little girls across the alley from where we lived
    • I was probably 4 or 5 years old and the neighbor girls were between 8 and 12 since they were children and I was a child I don't place as much emphasis on them


    [*]1 Ted (usually refered to in my post as Perp # 1) A prominent Opthomologist in town, A family friend. He also attended the same church as I did.
    • Raped me when I was 26 Ted molested me in his office durring an eye exam . He raped me after he lured me over to his house to do some work for him. He cornered me and groped me after choir practice one night at the church

  • [*]2 Dr. Laughlin refered to as perp # 2 Minister at the First Presbyterian Church
    • Raped me 10 days after Ted raped me when I went to him for spiritual and psychological counseling and told him about Ted raping me. Told me that what he was doing to me was a new way to "check for AIDS" DIED ( may her burn in hell) ten years ago


  • 3 Tom refered to as Perp # 3 entered my life 5 years ago. He was stalking me. Turned out to be my boss
    • started by making anonomous phone calls ( before caller I D ) mastrubating into the phone. Then went to what I refer to as Pervert mail ... pornographic magazines with letter describing the sex acts he wanted to perform on me. .... this was all before I realized who he was. He hired me as an employee five years ago. Would send me on wild goose chases in the country ( I was a delivery person for him) while he broke into my house and went through my underwear drawer. Was constantly "coming on to me" Cornered me twice at work and groped me. I pressed charges against him and he declared bankruptcy to get out of the charges. Moved to Pheonix. Lost the case because of the incompetance of my attorney. It got transfered to three different case workers
      • Attorney took the case contingency but changed to hourly ( retroactive to the begining of the case ) when Tom declared bankruptcy



I hope this clears things up.

Thanks for all your support guys

John

_________________________
From the Song MOUNTAINS by Lonestar.

Yeah, the good Lord gave us mountains,
So we could learn how to climb

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#76709 - 02/19/03 11:11 AM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
John. Man oh man I feel for you.
What a f**kin raw deal life dealt you. But my Brother you are here and that is what is important.
I know that I would try and find the bastard and let others know about him just to take control. Failing that write his name in the toilet bowl and every time you use it you may get some satisfaction in the synbolism.
I am not an expert on anything but please feel free to contact this old fart from the north any time you want. For that matter any of us here. We are all in it together.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#76710 - 02/19/03 04:37 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Thanks for the support. I think that maybe I need to clarify my perps. There have been three ( actually 4 )

1/2 The first perps were the little girls across the alley from where we lived

I was probably 4 or 5 years old and the neighbor girls were between 8 and 12 since they were children and I was a child I don't place as much emphasis on them
John definitely there's no need to put put unnecessary emphasis on this or any other trauma event, as there are enuf of them with enuf emphasis in your life, and mine.

However you might want to consider with your T or even here what possible negative impact this traumatic incident may have had on your life, and possibly how it might have "set you up" for future perpetrations.

John, yes you were all children. But they were older children, even adolescents, and they outnumbered you. They were in a position of power over you and they exercised it, either forcing or coercing you into what sounds to me like an abusive situation for you.

But you would know about that better than I , of course. As you know how much or how little emphasis to put on it.

I was sexually abused on multiple occasions by two different babysitters, one when I was 5 or 6, the other 9 or 10. Both were older than me, but really hardly old enuf to be babysitting me.

It's interesting that I did at least vaguely & occasionally remember the incidents with them. I think that's becuz I wasn't really thinking of it as abuse, tho I didn't think of it as something I really liked either, tho aspects of it did make me feel "good."

But more & more especially since my "real" abuse memories came back to me, I've gone from feeling like these two young ladies did me no favors at all, to knowing that what they did to me was definitely abusive.

I had already been incested by both parents by the time either one of them came along. But I still think they contributed to my relationship problems, control issues, and sexual addictions & dysfunctions. To my SA trauma.

But that's just my experience & opinions.

Just something to think about my friend. As if you didn't have enuf, huh?...

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76711 - 02/19/03 05:28 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
Lets just say that I am a lapsed CATHOLIC. Nothing ever happened to my related to the Church but I take exception to their stonewalling on every issue put forth. They are more interested in their money,power and sanctimounious holier than though attitude. God will they never learn.
God, I hope so!...

Mike I take exception to this "stonewalling" too.
Most of all, of course, becuz it hurts survivors & encourages further perpetrations.

Also, becuz this gives all churches & ministers a bad name that most of them don't deserve. Which also hurts survivors & encourages further perpetrations becuz people may be needlessly scared away from potentially a source of help in the churches and ministers.

It's notoriously hard to track down stats on this, and stats are only of limited reliability to be sure.

Nevertheless according to what stats I can find (and this refers to SA of children not adults), about 85% of perps are either family members, relatives, neighbors and/or family friends.

This leaves approximately 15% of sex offenders who could be ministers. Or they could be coaches, Scout troop leaders or parents, educators, daycare workers, babysitters (as 2 of my perps were), or co-workers or dates with adolescents.

Or strangers, which make up another about 5% of perps, leaving actually about 10% for all of the above & others.

So a high estimate, based granted on these limited stats (I'd welcome knowing about more & perhaps differing ones), would be that about 5% of perps are ministers, even if you include those who cover their sorry arses as sex offenders, which in my mind I do. Still, I doubt that high, given the sheer numbers of perps among the others named above, and others unnamed.

This is not a defense of perpetrating ministers! As a long-time Christian, who has been active in church ministry & service to the community, who was helping survivors before I even knew I was one myself, you can count on me to be one of the last ones to defend clergy sex offenders or churches & church officials who cover for them!

I deeply resent their abuse of others, and the black eye they give to all churches and to Jesus Christ Himself! A black eye that SA survivors may see, and turn the other way, perhaps from a place where they could really get help (For instance the support group I've started in meets in and is highly supported by a church, tho of course this is not common knowledge.)

If it was 0.00000000001% of perps who were clergy,
it would still be just as horribly wrong. And yes I do think it's worse when clergy perpetrated SA, becuz they above all should know better, and should be the ones helping the abused, and offering safe sanctuary from abuse, and good nurturing in Christ's Church.

One perpetration is one perpetration too many, whether the perp is a priest or a papa or a president!

God I hope they all learn!

And I do hope it starts especially in the church, as it should!

Thanks Mike and anyone else if you read & tolerated all these ramblings for what they're worth.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76712 - 02/19/03 09:20 PM Re: What Is the Church Doing About SA?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Victor you bet I understand. The creeps are usually trusted authority or family members. And that makes it all the more difficult for us to relate to other people from these groups who try to help. I just wish the F**K that my church would say collectively WE ARE SORRY AND WILL MAKE AMENDS. Instead they tie things up in the courts and say they wont hire gays. God they are so wrong. Some of the best Priests I know are gay. They are kind and thoughtful. It is the pedophiles that screw everything up. God must be disgusted with the whole sorry mess that we unwillingly became a part of.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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