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#76633 - 12/13/02 11:49 AM Cardinal Law Resigns
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
RE: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/12/13/law.resigns/index.html

I saw this yesterday and I think it is a darn good first step. Now I think they need to arrest him along with all those that he covered up. Put them in a 10X10 cell and keep em there for life.

Another guy that I work with read this article at work and made a good comment about it. Another guy sitting close by who grew up in catholic schools started to sort of downplay things. So I jumped in (I can't sit by quietly). I said he needed to resign and hopefully he along with the ones that he covered up for should all go to prison. He did tell us that in school, the priests where he was at were ok but he said he remembers going to sporting events with other catholic schools and hearing all kinds of stories. This is so sad.

And you know what, it isn't just the Catholic Church. All churches have this going on within them. I once told a guy that thought the only child molesters out there were the "convicted sex offenders" that he didn't have to go any further than his own church to find child abusers. Of course he didn't like to hear it, but churches are a good place to hide.

And please understand me, I am not saying everyone in all churches are bad, there are just child abusers there like in every walk of life (and the part that angers me is how they hide behind the church while they abuse their kids).

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
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#76634 - 12/13/02 02:43 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Mark Crawford Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 73
Loc: New Jersey
What I find amazing is the fact that Cardinal Law and the former bishops of the Boston Archdiocese are not the only bishops who hid these offenders. Many other bishops are just as guilty, yet we do not hear much about that. The reason why is this....Cardinal Law finally opened everything up to law enforcement, yes public demand drove this, but he did. Many others are still lying and not sharing all they know with local prosecutors. Some diocese have already cut deals with law enforcement not to seek out other victims in exchange for the files on past offenses. This is the case here in New Jersey. Yes there are many other Bishops who are very scared and covering thier own buts.

There are several bishops who have been very vocal against the Church's attempts to quell this issue but they have been brushed aside, as have the victims.

Much change is still needed and I still ask....WHAT ARE THEY DOING FOR THESE VICTIMS????


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#76635 - 12/13/02 03:13 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I definately agree that this is not the only case and there should be mored one for all victims. The one thing that may be positive out of all of this (if there can be a positive) is that it is beginning to cut open the scab over the hidden poison. Not to long ago, you heard very little about anything related to child sexual abuse (especially boys) and now at least it is beginning to be talked about. Maybe more progress is being made than we can see right now and only time will give the answer on that.

But I do agree that this is just one case of many and may it continue to expose all that have done these things.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#76636 - 12/13/02 03:59 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
MrDon, I strongly agree with you on a couple of vital points...

Quote:
So I jumped in (I can't sit by quietly). I said he needed to resign and hopefully he along with the ones that he covered up for should all go to prison.
I can't sit around & be silent about this sh*t anymore either! And I do think he (and probably some others) should have resigned a long time ago. Not to mention been incarcerated & put into treatment programs.

IMNSHO those who cover up for these perps are as bad as the perps--if not worse, becuz often sex offenders are driven by pain & compulsions that may be very hard to control--I'm not saying impossible, nor am I saying this in any way excuses them.

It's just that those who cover up for them hurt them instead of helping them, and allow--cause--more people to be abused. And not becuz they're driven by some inner anguish & aggressive acting-out. No simply becuz they're too greedy, gutless, self-interested & uncaring to take the action they know damn well they should take!

Quote:
And please understand me, I am not saying everyone in all churches are bad, there are just child abusers there like in every walk of life (and the part that angers me is how they hide behind the church while they abuse their kids).
Yes, there are child abusers everywhere! And YES, it does especially infuriate me that there are any in the church, the last place they ought to be! I get particularly incensed when churchgoers use their "faith" (it's NOT true Christianity!) to cover up or even justify their abusiveness!

I swear to God, sometimes I'm ashamed to even admit I'm a Christian, much less active in the church! \:o

But I have to keep reminding myself that those perps going into a church does not make them Christians any more than my going into a bank makes me rich!

I've also got to remember that I'm fortunate enuf to be part of a church that stands out among denominations & has for years in being at least positively reactive & increasingly even proactive against sexual abuse.

Our churches are encouraged to use training & materials to focus on being true "sanctuaries", places where children, and all persons, can come and be safe sexually, and in every way.

There has also been a big emphasis, including required training, on sensitizing church employees, especially clergy, to even the appearance of evil when it comes to sexual abuse or harrassment, of children or adults.

There is plenty more to be done. I'm working on it; and I don't think I'm the only one...

Thanks Don

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76637 - 12/13/02 04:09 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
Mr Don & Sparky.

Maybe this isn't the place to put these views across, maybe I should have posted in foriegn news. But it so similar as to what is happening in the U.K. at the moment.

Here our head of the Cathoilic Church is under pressure to resign (and maybe face criminal charges). He has admitted to covering up abuse by one of his Bishops and moving him to a safer diocese. I find this attitude alarming, what constitutes a safe diocese? In my opinion the only safe place for people like this is a prison cell, but hey what do I know.

I'm slightly paranoid, but I wonder if it is a larger cover up by our governments. Goerge W and smiling Tony shouldn't really be best buddies, Tony loved Clinton. I know Michael Moore wonders if our Tony hangs around with W so to make him look more intelligent but then he could hang around with 5 year old kids and achieve the same. My point both our leaders sleep with a bible next to their beds. They should STOP protecting the Church and protect the Kids. STOP supporting the Church and support the Kids.

I read in another post that survivors have difficulty paying for there therapy. Make the Churches pay for it. It's won of the wealthiest landowners in the world. They harp on about compassion, it's about time they showed some.

Sorry for ranting.

Mark S


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#76638 - 12/13/02 10:07 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
i am so pissed off i can't say a word...

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

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#76639 - 12/14/02 12:49 AM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Apparently, people are having a difficult time understanding what an historical thing happened today. For a Cardinal of the Catholic Church to resign and ask forgiveness for having failed to be the pastor he should have been is of catacylismic proportions.

I would very much expect that lesser hierarchs will in fact do the same thing over a period of time.

This is a very solemn event for catholics. Law, as a young Bishop was outstanding. He was active in civil rights, he was known as a man of the people and he was known as a prayerful man.

Then came the curse of nearly absolute power. He caved in. He put protection of the supposed honor of "the church" whatever the hell that is, above the honor and safety of the church--which is the people of God everywhere.

It probably won't happen due to the wretched statute of limitations--but a very healing and cleansing thing would be bishops, and ofcourse all predatory priests, in prison.

The poisoned "powers of the church" need to be further humiliated and disgraced before we can get to the simplicity and honesty that my church has strayed way too far from for centuries. We need a new Francis of Assisi and Catherine of Sienna and the many other reformers that worked hard to purify the church--unsuccessfully. MAYBE, we have a new chance. I hope so.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#76640 - 12/14/02 01:07 AM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Well put Bob.

I hope so too...

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76641 - 12/14/02 10:18 AM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Mark Crawford Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 73
Loc: New Jersey
Bob....I also agree very much on what you said.

I know most will not agree but I have very mixed feelings about Cardinal Law's resignation but I do believe that this may have been necessary to continue to show the other leaders of our church that they ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW, nor have they handled these heinous failings with the necessary HUMILITY AND MEEKNESS, they often encourage from us, the lay community.

Let's make NO MISTAKE, knowing these clergy members were predators and returning them to ministry IS CRIMMINAL. Of course, all the bishops don't want to accept this one bit, because it would mean they failed. Well they DID!! But I will also say this about Cardinal Law. He could have chosen to "stay the course" and not reveal the truth to prosecutors....HE DID NOT. It was only as a result of these very actions that has caused the uproar from the public, which in turn has FINALLY gotten the Church's attention. I am certain he knew releasing these files would result in major repercussions.

I wrote to all the US Cardinals several years ago, concerning my abuse, that of my younger brother and how the church was handling these victims. I warned them that if the church did not stop "recycling" these pedophiles back into ministry, one day our society will demand it and that the church will be greatly diminished. 5 Cardinals responded, including the Vatican. I must say out of all the responses I found the letter from Cardinal Law to be the most honest and empathetic. I do believe he is truely sorry for all the damage that has been done. I can't say that today about the priest who was the one who abused me.

The local bishops here in New Jersey (several, not all) and many others throughout this country, committed the same failings as Cardinal Law. We just havn't heard about it yet because they also are very much afraid they will become besieged by the same public outcrys.

I was reading reports recently that the vatican is finally starting to see this is not just an issue pertaining to the US and is much broader then they realized. This is a good thing. Men, now more then ever before are coming forward and speaking of thier sexual abuse as children. This is a good thing. The public is talking about the sexual abuse of children and boys. This is a good thing. THERE IS A SILVER LINNING IN EVERY CLOUD...WE ARE JUST STILL IN THE MIDST OF THE STORM. Change will not come as quickly as we would all like...but it is coming!

Mark


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#76642 - 12/14/02 11:18 AM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Very good point, Sparky! And a hard lesson for me to learn: that just becuz I find the good that comes out of the bad doesn't mean I'm saying the bad is now good! ;\) \:\)

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76643 - 12/14/02 11:09 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
Well, i gotta put in my 2 cents ....

I think i still got some faith, I am still RC, tho abused by a priest. The perp is not a priest, and now lives next door to the church.

I am active in ministry at the church, eucharistic minister, lector, usher, all that.

tomorrow, I am scheduled to proclaim the word..

Reading I
Is 61:1-2a, 10-11

The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me;
he has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor,
to heal the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives
and release to the prisoners,
to announce a year of favor from the LORD
and a day of vindication by our God.

I rejoice heartily in the LORD,
in my God is the joy of my soul;
for he has clothed me with a robe of salvation
and wrapped me in a mantle of justice,
like a bridegroom adorned with a diadem,
like a bride bedecked with her jewels.
As the earth brings forth its plants,
and a garden makes its growth spring up,
so will the Lord GOD make justice and praise
spring up before all the nations.

Holy Mary Mother of God pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death...

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

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#76644 - 12/15/02 10:08 AM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Orodo, I'm glad to hear you've not lost your faith; many lose theirs & that is tragic. And good for you for still being active in the church. Some would not be able to do so; of course there's nothing wrong with that, but it's good some can remain active in the church, whether for their own health, as a reforming example in the church, or both.

We are using that same Scripture in our church today (United Methodist); we're following the lectionary. Great passage; may the captives be released! The truth can make us free!

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#76645 - 12/15/02 04:15 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Mark Crawford Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 73
Loc: New Jersey
Orodo, I am glad to hear you have also not abandoned your faith. If it is truely FAITH, then we must not allow the actions of ANY man to come between us and that which we believe. Sometimes it is necessary to look at something from a new perspective but we don't have to throw it all out.

I too am a practicing Catholic and very active in my church. For the most part I know that many parish priests see this issue as we do. It still seems to me that the leaders of our faith have relied on the lawyers of our church and its administrtive needs to override the spiritual/mystical body of the church. This MUST NOT BE!!! This has much to do with the structure of its hierarchy which is more like a monarchy and the elite royalty, which for years for many reasons have proven to be beyond reproach. The leaders have been aloof and removed from realities that we the laity must live each day. I am not sure how else to put it. But this doesn't mean there can't or won't be change.

I agree with Bob entirely...what the Church needs now is a person like Francis of Assisi. Someone who challenged the Pope and Cardinals of Rome when he wanted to begin the Franciscan order and they at first refused and sent him away. He persisted and eventually became on of the great influences for reform in the Church of his day.

We need this kind of purification and change. We may be witnessing just the begining.

I hope and pray that one day soon the leaders of our Church will truely, openly and honestly speak of all these failings (some have truely begun this process but many have not). It appears to me that the clergy members from religious orders are far more capable of empathy and true humility and resolve for change regarding the clergy abuse scandals....but far too many diocesan bishops are still clinging onto thier "role as CEO" rather than being the "shepard" they were called to be.

We seek a SPIRITUAL RESPONSE, not a legal one...WHEN WE THEY GET THIS? Who among them will "take the road less traveled"?
Mark


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#76646 - 12/15/02 07:52 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
I could go on for hours on this one. We need a much more inclusive church, we need total declericaliztion and the Bishops need to be servants not masters.

We make men bishops who would not know how to give a marriage instruction and fill out the papers if their lives depended on it. We need pastoral men, not yes men with scarlet fever as our bishops.

Incompetent, or crabby, miisfits need to go to the clerical funny farm and not be allowed to harm people because of their crabbiness.

Any bishop who transfered a known abuser in the past 15 years needs to resign and do simple pastoral work--preferably serving people with aids, dying children, work on oncology units or be chaplains to juvie hall--a taste of realilty would give them new life!

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#76647 - 12/15/02 08:56 PM Re: Cardinal Law Resigns
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Bob, Amen to all that! And I mean for all churches
not just the RCC.

IMNSHO no one should be a bishop for a lifetime, they should always go back to spend time as priest of a local congregation, and also spend time doing the kinds of work you spoke of.

Otherwise it seems the power combined with the knowledge that its a lifetime tenure position seems almost inevitably to be just too corrupting or at least corrosive. Either power is abused or it is spent shuffling paperwork & maintaining the power structure. Instead of serving & helping others serve--which if they were doing it might help some priests/pastors have the kind of support that just might keep them from becoming sex offenders.

OK long enuf on this soapbox for this radical!

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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