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#76466 - 04/20/01 11:15 PM Romans 8:38-39
wobble Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 7
Loc: Spanish Fork, Ut, USA
Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

I hope that this finds you some comfort. It has me.


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#76467 - 04/22/01 04:49 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39
Neil Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 81
Loc: Millersville, MD, USA
A big Amen..... Good to hear from you. God bless you Wobble.


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#198867 - 01/09/08 11:46 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Neil]
Coach Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 28
Loc: California
It might not separate us from the love of God, however (abuse)does a pretty good job of distorting the concept of His love!

A.W. Tozer put it the best "Life is in perpetual antithesis"

Coach


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#198957 - 01/10/08 08:20 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Coach]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Coach,
With all due respect, God has nothing to do with evil that men do. Nothing about God's love is distubing to me now that I accept him in my own life.

I once raised my fists and said horrible things and blamed God for the misery and said "How could you let this happen"? I now believe He weeps for the pain inflicted by men who were created in His likeness.

Everyday I try to find gratitude in even the smallest way. Some days it is harder than others, but I stopped blaming God

Peace,
Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#199047 - 01/11/08 01:56 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Danbuff]
Coach Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 28
Loc: California
Dan,

I respectfully respect your thought on the matter. However, if the distortion concept wasn't an issue like it is for the majority of us that have been abused, then we wouldn't even be e-mailing. I've found that the christian church as a whole (Churches, Pastors, Theologians, Professionals, Close friends, Etc.) have not known how to successfully and intellectually bridge the chasm.

I think it is great that you've perceived!

Not to play the Devil's advocate, but it is very clear from the book of Job chapter 42 verse 11 "and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him."

I'm not blaming God! I know I have no chance accept for His Mercy, etc.

I could say more.

Coach

P.S. Ancora Imparo (I'm still learning)


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#199356 - 01/13/08 11:03 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Coach]
weapher Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
Great discussion...

In my opinion, the difference for us is that we tend to look at God logically rather than seeing Him with our heart as a loving father who is concerned for us and weeps over our struggles.

Romans 8 is a reminder that God loves us and will never leave us. This>
_________________________
Facing the struggle makes you strong.

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#199362 - 01/13/08 11:38 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
bp83 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 111
Loc: Arkansas
Hey Coach, quick response to the>
_________________________
-
Scott

"Life is for living, we all know, and I don't want to live it alone..."-Chris Martin

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#199370 - 01/14/08 12:23 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
There was a time when I was so mad at God I wouldnt even speak with Him. I remember laying in bed at night's praying over and over to God to please make the abuse stop, even if it ment me dieing. But it didn't stop not until I moved 1000 miles from "home". And for a very long time I blamed God for this. I felt he had turned his back on me. But is this fair? I understand and know the abuse wasn't fair but was it fair for me to blame God? I had a dear friend point out a few things to me and I would like to share them. Now I'll not be able to repete them word for word but think I can get the main idea across.

I was asked what the bible says God "is" ofcourse I didn't have an answer even though I grew up going to church. I didn't know the answer. I mean I gave the normal answers. God is the creator, powerful, GOD ya know? But it was pointed out to me that in the bible it tells me just what God "is" 1 John 4:8 says it... "God is love" (please read 1 Corinthians for what the bible say "love" is) So if God is love then how could he be the blame for my abuse? OK so that's one example so what, right? OK so this friend kept going. So he pointed out Mattew (Where Jesue went too the wilderness to fast) 4:8 where satan showed Jesue "all the kingdoms of the world" Then it goes on to say in 9 "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me" So the question was put to me... "How can Satan offer something that doesnt belong to him?" For example: If we are walking down the street and I see a sports car I like driveing down the road and make a comment on it. How could you offer me the car if you do not own it. So.. the line of thinking behind this was "How can satan offer Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if he didn't own them to begin with?"

His point was this: If satan "owns" all the kingdoms of the world, then who rules the world? Not the heavens mind you but the kingdoms of the world. Well the only answer I could give was "It must be satan". So if satan rules the world then who must be responable for the state the world is in? Same answer, right? So if satan is responable for the state the world is in.. then who must be responable for the abuse going on in the world? Well I could only answer Satan. So with this line of reasoning I learned to let go of my anger too God for the bad that happened to me as a child. There were other examples given of how God crys when we hurt, how he feels our pain, how he hates the bad that is happening. And how in time He will put an end to all of this once and for all.. but that would be for a different thread.

Just some thoughts,
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#199405 - 01/14/08 08:58 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: James_dup1]
DanM Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 540
Loc: So. California
James,

I so agree with your analysis and conclusion. God loves us all.

Dan


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#199438 - 01/14/08 12:27 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: DanM]
weapher Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
Well stated James... And if God does love us the way you pointed out in Corinthians, then it is to be understood that His Love for us will never fail us.

God is love and God's love is perfect.

It goes back to His character...

1Co 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails...

Cool.

weapher

btw.. this conversation made me really think about the>
_________________________
Facing the struggle makes you strong.

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#199499 - 01/14/08 09:48 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Weapher,

Thanks for posting the chapter I talked about. Forgot to put chapter and verse LOL. So yeah thanks a lot man.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#199511 - 01/14/08 10:59 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: James_dup1]
MusicMan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Elmira, NY
OK, so, wow. I have to get in on this thread. I can feel some Holy Ghost going on here. I just stopped by here to have some church!

In fact, it sounds like God stopped by to give you Romans 8:38 - 39 to share with all of us to give us some encouragement. Actually, for everyone who posted some>

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#199513 - 01/14/08 11:44 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
KENKEN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
I can only speak for myself, but I do know that I didn't blame God for all my acting out I did. I blamed it on my perp. But once I saw the light I now know that my acting out was my fault and NOT that of my perp.

After I broke my silence about my CSA to my GF and then to my professional T and Group did I begin to understand, that before God would help me I had to ask for his forgiveness and tell him how sorry I was for what I did. What I did to him as well as how I hurt my friends around me.

I ask God every day now to give me the strength to obey him and ask him to take away from me all my horrible thoughts. It is only with his help that I no longer act out.

I do know for certain that there is a God. Because I would have not gotten this far in my recovery without his help. I am way to weak to do this all alone.

Thanks for listening

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

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#199527 - 01/15/08 02:36 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: KENKEN]
weapher Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
Thanks for sharing KenKen... Good stuff. And you are so right. Forgiveness is such a vital part of our healing process and I am in a place right now of trying to fully do that.

I have read the>
_________________________
Facing the struggle makes you strong.

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#199531 - 01/15/08 06:59 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
Coach Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 28
Loc: California
Weapher,

Do I need to love this person after I forgive them? Absolutely!!! The love is generated by the Holy Spirit not necessarily a willingness on my part. Perhaps, it evolves over time as I cooperate with God.

Example:

Presently, my uncle is in Prison. There was a time a few years ago when I approached him and confronted him regarding all the abuse. At that time he wasn't open to admitting he needed help, neither did he want it. http://www.Brokenyoke.com
I don't think it is my responsibility to get him to perceive the things of God. The way I "love" is if indeed I'm prompted by the Spirit to write a letter to him, etc. and I've done that and continued to do that. His last response came the day after Christmas by sending me "The Purpose Driven Life." His comment was that this might aide me in finding my purpose. The gesture was acceptable. Whatever, you or I might think of the book.

Example:

One of my good friends from high school got in contact with me last year after Easter weekend. He had just recently been released after serving 11 years in Prison for child molestation. His first comment to me was "I thought you'd be the last person on earth that would want to talk with me." We have continued to talk since that time and encourage each other.

"If your brother offends you go tell him." That actually is commanded!

With all do respect, if psychologically it is more palpable for you to interpret the Job passage, so be it. I personally don't hold that view. The view of evil/clamity is not at all philosophically inconsisent with God's nature/character or Sovereignty.

"Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life." Marcus Aurelius Antonius


Coach


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#199540 - 01/15/08 08:48 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Coach]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
forgivness is not a requirment for healing


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#199542 - 01/15/08 09:13 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: evanesence]
KENKEN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
evanesence:

I must disagree with your statement.

I really feel forgiveness is a requirement for healing. I can only speak for myself however. I feel God will not forgive me if I can't show forgiveness for what was done to me and for how I acted out and hurt others. I met up with guys from porn sites for what I thought was just curiosity. However the encounters turned into more than that.

Regarding my perp. (Brother) I am having a hard time forgiving what he has done to me, but I have forgiven him. But, I WILL NEVER FORGET WHAT HE HAS DONE TO ME AND HOW IT HAS AND WILL EFFECT MY LIFE FOREVER. I think forgive yes, but forget no.

Oh, yea, I am angry and indeed mad at myself because of how I acted out. I think it is the cause and effect issue.

It is only through my forgiveness from God that I can make right to myself and to those I hurt.

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

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#199550 - 01/15/08 11:25 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
Freedom49 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 2723
Loc: Washington State
I was not separated from his love and he was not separated from my pain. He was there suffering the pain and humiliation with me all the time. I know that now.

Roger


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#199551 - 01/15/08 11:30 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: KENKEN]
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Evenesence,

In some ways you are right. Forgiveness isn't a requirment for most people to "heal". But for some like myself I have found that offering that forgiveness had helped me let go of the pain and shame that came from my abuse. However, do we have to forgive in order to get grace from God? I don't think so to some points. See in order to offer someone forgiveness they are required to do some things first. See someone who has sinned against us doesnt automaticly get our forgiveness, they have to do some stuff first.

Quote:
God has a required way for seeking and receiving his forgiveness. A person must acknowledge his sin, recognize that it is an offense against God, confess it unqualifiedly, have a deep heartfelt sorrow for the wrong done, and have a determination to turn from such a course or practice. (Ps 32:5; 51:4; 1Jo 1:8,9; 2Co 7:8-11) He must do what he can to right the wrong or damage done. (Mt 5:23,24) Then he must pray to God, asking for forgiveness on the basis of Christ's ransom sacrifice. Eph 1:7


So if God has requirements for his forgiveness to offered to a sinner, then we can also follow this example of Godly forgiveness. So if a person isn't willing to openly admit his sin do we as believer's have to extend forgiveness to them? With my limited understanding of the bible I don't believe so. If we are to live our lives by God's and Jesus's example and this is the "guildlines" set forth in the bible to get God's forgiveness then we also have guidlines to offer someone forgiveness.

Now like everything else in life there is a balance in even bible teachings.

Quote:
When a person has been grievously wronged, the pain can be immense. This is particularly true if one is the innocent victim of a serious sin. Some may even wonder, "How can I forgive someone who viciously betrayed and hurt me?" In the case of a gross sin the victim may need to apply the counsel of Matthew 18:15-17.


Quote:
Matthew 18:15-17

15 "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.


So as you can see even the bible lays out requirments for forgiveness for us to follow. When it says "let him by to you just as a man of the nations" Jesus told us to not be a part of the nations. So basicly it's saying to not have anything to do with unrepentence person.

Quote:
In any case, much may depend on the offender. Since the wrongdoing has there been any sign of sincere repentance? Has the sinner changed, perhaps even attempted to make real amends? In Jehovah's eyes such repentance is a key to forgiveness even in the case of truly horrendous sins. For example, Jehovah forgave Manasseh, one of the most wicked kings in Israel's history. On what basis? God did so because Manasseh finally humbled himself and repented of his vile ways. 2 Chronicles 33:12,13.


So even God has requirments for his forgiveness. So "if" God has these requirments then so can we.

Quote:
In the Bible genuine repentance involves a sincere change in attitude, a heartfelt regret over any wrongs committed. Where appropriate and possible, repentance is accompanied by an effort to make restitution to the victim of the sin. (Luke 19:7-10; 2 Corinthians 7:11) Where there is no such repentance, Jehovah does not forgive. Moreover, God does not expect Christians to forgive those who were once enlightened spiritually but who now willfully, unrepentantly practice wrongdoing. (Hebrews 10:26-31) In extreme cases, forgiveness may well be inappropriate. Psalm 139:21, 22; Ezekiel 18:30-32.



So for me the act of forgiveness isn't quite as black and white. There is a ton of things that come with it. This is just a breif overview of my thoughts on the act of forgiveness. Hope it helps some.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#199559 - 01/15/08 12:46 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: Coach]
weapher Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 60
Loc: Oregon
Thanks for that James. Forgiveness is very difficult when it comes to things that completely changed our lives.

Coach, Don't understand? can you please clarify...

Originally Posted By: Coach
Weapher,
With all do respect, if psychologically it is more palpable for you to interpret the Job passage, so be it. I personally don't hold that view. The view of evil/clamity is not at all philosophically inconsisent with God's nature/character or Sovereignty.
Coach


thanks
weapher

_________________________
Facing the struggle makes you strong.

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#199652 - 01/15/08 11:02 PM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
evanesence Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 119
i guess forgivness is a personal thing ,a lot like faith different for everyone, i hear it so often that god has to forgive us, the survivor ! for what? for surviving? i agree with james that there should be conditions met to even consider forgiving ,but it has to be up to the individual to forgive or not , does anybody seriously think an i'm sorry is enough? i have heard it says in the bible an eye for an eye,has to be the one thing in there that i could agree with ,don't leave much room for forgivness.why should i waste one second of time that i could use to fight this shit ,wondering if i should forgive my abusers? no, they took enough from me already and i refuse to ask god to forgive me for surviving any way i could up till now.


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#199678 - 01/16/08 01:11 AM Re: Romans 8:38-39 [Re: weapher]
Coach Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 28
Loc: California
Weapher,

God chooses to do certain things that remain a mystery. Whatever the term (Cause, Permit, Allow, Ordain, Etc.) Specifically, in the context of Job's sufferings they were used of God to test and refine Job's character.

As questionable as it may sound-why can't the same thing able to abuse victim's? That concept may tweak the mind abit. God works in mysterious ways.

I believe that God is more in control rather than shift the responsibility over to Satan.

Coach


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