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#76418 - 12/17/00 01:06 AM really tough
abcd Offline

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
As I wrote in the regular forum, I've been having a tough time still. I really wanted to get an input from this part of the forum. I don't know. I wanted to see what you guys thought about what it is that you needed. A few years back, when I basically remembered that I had been abused (around the time of puberty), I realized that I had very strong homosexual tendencies. As I said in my 1st post though, I also know that ever since I was a child I also had wanted to be with girls. Although I have only had one REALLY serious girlfriend (in college), I knew that I can definitely fall in love with women (I was head over heels for her and to the point of marriage even--incidentally, she was a Christian and is the only person who knows my story). Anyway from high school, I also know that ever since I was friends with this very good-looking guy (a Christian too actually), I realized that he can satisfy the 'other side' of myself just through friendship (when I knew him, I could easily control my thoughts and urges). Ever since then (I'm no longer friends with the guy 'cuz he had to move after few months or something during high school), I've been 'fantasizing' about that kind of close friendship with another guy (and someone close enough whom I can tell my story too). Although I've certainly had a really close male best friend in HS, I never talked to him about my past...I don't know I guess I'm really looking for a "good-looking" guy. I know that may sound crazy, and actually, that's what I want to know. Is it crazy and just really me deceiving myself? Am I only looking for a good-looking guy just because I want to actually have a sexual relationship? I don't know--I have had this feeling for a long time. I've been praying for a while to ask God to guide me and help me be strong...BUT I know that I have some strange reactions. I have come to know quite a few really good-looking guys. There's specifically one who I'm fairly decent friends with, but I realize that I'm a little awkward in my behavior still towards good-looking guys and don't really know how to make the friendship closer. Unfortunately, when I get frustrated, I notice that I then start to fantasize over my friend (which, not to offend the gay forum, is not good at least for me--incidentally, he too is a really nice guy-a Christian). I don't know though--I really still think that if I had a really good friendship (nothing sexual) with this guy (or any other good-looking guy), that I'd be okay and happy. We've talked about our girlfriends and the like, and I've been just fine with that (no jealousy for his girlfriend or anything). Still, I don't know. Even if it's not anything "dangerous," I wonder if it's shallow (looking for a best friend 1st based on what he is on the outside). I don't know if I'm rambling too much here 'cuz I'm tired, but what do you guys think?

#76419 - 12/17/00 07:16 AM Re: really tough
Neil Offline

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 81
Loc: Millersville, MD, USA
I think you first have to determine if your feelings are abuse related or natural attractions. I struggled with sexual identity for a long time. I always thought that since I allowed a man to have sex with me then I must be gay/bi. I knew that I really only had an attraction for women but had fantasies about my abuser and having sex with him. Those thoughts kept me wondering for many years. Through therapy I realized that those thoughts were directly related to my abuse. My abuser had a hold on my thoughts that I could not shake. Once I loosened that hold I knew that I was not gay/bi but had been conditioned to believe that by my abuser. I can't tell you which one you fall into but it may be worth a look. If it's abuse related and you can identify that then you can work on that part of it. If it's natural then it is. You have to decide what to do with that. I too have a longing to find a male friend that I can trust enough to tell my story to. I'm not sure any of my present friends would understand. Maybe they would and I just don't trust our friendship enough to tell them. I don't want to jeapardize our friendship by telling them something that they may not be able to handle. I'm not sure if this helps but I think you need to look deeper into your feelings and see what's there.

#76420 - 12/18/00 12:44 AM Re: really tough
seekingGood Offline

Registered: 12/04/00
Posts: 9
Loc: USA
I saw a prominent british actor, Ian McKellan perform during the gay olympics a few years back in NYC. On thing he spoke about really disturbed me. He spoke of his liberation from conventional (straight) sex which occurred in a darkened movie theater. Apparently, a stranger in his 30's and wearing the cliche trenchcoat sat beside him and introduced him to gay sex with his hands. This helped to shape this actors entire life and clarified for him that he was gay and happily so. This incident occurred when the actor was 10 years old. I later asked a co-worker who was very impressed by the performance what she would have thought had it been a 10 year old girl being introduced to her true sexual self in that theatre. She said, "that's different". Somehow, that co-worker couldn't understand that boys are the same as girls in their need for protection and a nurturing environment. I went through many times where the acceptance offered by the gay community was a powerful lure to be gay. I never felt safe or good during sex with a man, but I loved being part of the family. I loved the parties and the perversion. Lesbian women sometimes "played " with the men, and I was wanted it seemed by everyone. I was accepted and desired and noone was shocked by my experiences, they were rather impressed and aroused when I mentioned my abuse. I used my history of abuse as a membership card to win points in a society that saw no tragedy in it. That was my experience. I later discovered it was too painful to "play gay" and found that women outside of that society were uncomfortable to say the least with what I had done. I found myself breaking away once I met a woman who accepted me in a heterosexual relationship. I was in heaven, until she slept with other men - cheating on me. Then I became promiscuous. I was certain that I was not good enough to have what I truly wanted which was a magical love with a woman. I read "the road less travelled" by dr Scott F. Peck a few years later, when my new behavior proved equally unsatisfying. That book helped me to begin understanding my pain and the true nature of love. I also read the people of the lie and that taught me a great deal about my family and the people I had let hurt me so much for so long. People are wicked. I was raised to believe that there is no good and no evil, just "choices". My pain, and the wise words of Dr. Scott F Peck -and others, have taught me that there is good and evil and we must be judgemental in order to protect ourselves. This does not mean we should persecute others, but it does mean that when that voice inside of us makes us question our decision, we should listen, lest we do evil. It is so easy to lie to oneself - even if we never fully believe it. Thank you for letting me ramble. I am not an expert, just a man who has trouble calling himself a man. I am 34 years old and married with a son. Yet, for many reasons, I have a hard time seeing myself as more than a frightened boy. I do not know what the truth is for you, but I encourage you to listen to the voice that does know. When I want to indulge in my sin of choice, I can feel my personality shift. I get anxious, I touch the fingers of my hand against my thumb over and over again and I plot how it is I will obtain and view some Pornographic materials. When I am done, I feel stupid and aknowledge the fact that I could have spent that time being productive. Somehow, the lure of that sin has always haunted me. It is my current struggle to work with God to not indulge in that activity again. It is a symptom for me of my history of abuse coming back to haunt me. I still think my brother who abused me is the most handsome man on earth. He was a kind of hero for me. He told me he was smart and strong and handsome and I still believe it. I long for his company even though he only hurts me with his selfishness and perversion. ( The first time he met my wife, he proudly displayed a portrait of his penis done in oil paint. He then had me take off my shirt and arm-wrestle him as he also took off his shirt and of course beat me at that contest. He had one more thing to share that day which was his latest film for his silm school project. It was filled with images of himself and his girlfriend of the time running naked along the beach. ) I thought this was all perfectly fine until my wife told me it was weird. I have been bent by my brother and I am trying to get straight. I lost my virginity with my brother and his girlfriend. He asked me if I wanted to and even though I did not want to, I did it to be impressive and "kinky". ( Years of reading penthouse magazine had also bent me into believing there was merit in sleeping with anything that moved - especially if it was shocking. )I have always been terribly sad at that robbery of something special. I dreamed before that day that I would wait until I was married. You never get that back. I am married now and sometimes it is wonderful. Sometimes I want to die. I do believe, however that with God's love I will find a more consistent peace and my fingers will twitch less often. Since I started writing to this forum, I have been clean of my sinful habit - if not of the thoughts. I have definitely twitched less. My relationship with my wife has also improved and I have also cried and felt terrible because I am reliving some of the pain I have hidden from over the last few years. Forgive me if I do not help you. I believe this is helping me. God bless you and good luck. You are very brave to ask questions. My experience is it is easier to be gay - the gay community always accepted me with open arms. I just hated what I felt like when I stopped and actually felt my feelings. In this forum, to protect myself and my family, and because other names were already taken, I call myself seekingGood. I traded in what I knew was goodness for a short period of comraderie and excitement. I wish I hadn't and I wish someone had said to me what I was doing was wrong. Nowadays everyone is afraid to say what right and wrong are. "As long as they don't hurt themslves or others..." My mother used to say. The problem is, many people who are hurting themselves and others are included in the excused group, because making a distinction becomes impossible once we decide to be polite, and, "careful not to offend." My use of Pornography hurts me and my wife and my 3 year old son. (not to mention the men and women who are exposing themselves for money and winning praise and $$$ in exchange for losing their innnocence.) I love to watch porn because I can voyeuristically place myself in the position of those people - once again having sex with people I don't know or care about or even like. Should I be stopped? America says the porn industry is here to stay and ok dokey. The fact that drug use and denial is part and parcel with a successful career does not matter at all. We glamourize it. I learned a statistic that 1 in 4 people have been victims of sexual abuse. Many by their families and/or friends. I believe our society would feel less relaxed about porn and other sexual issues if all 25% of the population opened up their souls and stopped hiding their pain. I am crazy. I have two brains. I can live believing that sexual perversion and promiscuity is cool and exciting and I can find huge support in that view. Part of me begs for that life. "why couldn't I find a woman who likes strippers? - or at least accepts my desires as "normal"? A few weeks ago I as much as said that to my wife. She reminded me that I was exposed to porn as a young child and that porn made her sick to her stomach and terribly hurt as though I wanted to cheat on her. If I let that side of my brain win, I can live a sexy- fun empty life and lose my wife and my son forever. I am instead feeling crazy as I fight my desires and continuing to pray for guidance and strength. To quote the SIA meetings I once attended:

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Keep coming back, it works if you work it, so work it, you're worth it!"

Thanks again for the chance to write.

#76421 - 12/18/00 09:10 PM Re: really tough
abcd Offline

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
Thanks for the responses guys...Seekinggood, especially thank you to you. Somehow, your post was exactly what I needed. You're right in so many things you say... Btw, that's a nice quote...Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's a similar quote as the serenity prayer of Mother Theresa...

Anyway, one caveat, and just let me go off on this a little bit but know that I am unbelievably grateful and in agreement with just about everything that you said...Okay...Maybe I'm in defense of this because my brother is, but I don't think so...I think the "evil" judgement may be misplaced. There might be an actual difference in being gay and the life that you had lived. That is, there is a good and evil, it is true. Also, most of the "evil" you were pointing out there may indeed be inherent in the stereotypical gay lifestyle (at the very least it may be hard to separate from it since homosexuality is itself a means to an end of physical pleasure--since procreation is not possible), but I do not know that the "perveseness" is necessarily inherent with being gay? These are just my thoughts, of course (this is discussion after all), but I think the lifestyle you spoke of would be wrong regardless of sexual orientation. If one were to approach a homosexual relationship like a Christian approaches a heterosexual one, well I do not know if that is the case...Please take this with a grain of salt, though, I'm still struggling with the whole moral implications of this kind of thinking...I do know, however, that even the the Roman Catholic Church does not view homosexuality itself as a sin--although it does view any sort of homosexual act which is perhaps somewhat paradoxical... My point here is that I would be hesitant to necessarily pass moral judgement on homosexuality's moral ground (although I don't think you were doing that either--except maybe that homosexuality is wrong for YOU).

Nonetheless, I agree with you. I don't know, but for me at least (and I think you also just meant your opinion for yourself), I think that indeed homosexuality is wrong. After having spent weeks reading what others think, and combining it with what I've always thought (and your post), I realize that homosexuality is indeed wrong for me (in a common sense way, if not in a moral way).

For me, I take it to the ideal...okay, let's say I could have indeed this handsome prince charming, a Christian, and a monogamous relationship with adopted children with say NO prejudice from society...would I be happy? No. While I have never had a "homosexual relationship," I can't even really fit it all in with who I was before the abuse, who I am now, and who I want to be. I know from my last girlfriend, how beautiful a relationship is with a woman. The truth is, I was in love. I could seriously just be doing nothing, and I would be happy with this woman (as you are probably too with your wife). Yes, I strayed while I was in that relationship, but that is the cost of the abuse. If there's a pattern I've noticed here from posts on the web, it's that we all do 'disturbing' things and have disturbing thoughts bordering on perversion. The thing is there are patterns which suggest, to me, that there are a result of our common bond as sexually abused males--not genuine feelings of our self were it stripped from our past history. For instance, I've noticed that indeed many times the traits that I do look for in good-looking men are those that apply to one of my 'abusers' or to what I thought were role models at the time of my abuse (that is, what is attracting me to males seems to be heavily influenced by my abuser or the time of my abuse). This suggests to me that my feelings aren't normal/real (at least for me). Second, I've also realized that many of us are acting as though we are simply going through an "addiction" (like you said, it's like another person enters you when you open the otherside of yourself--for me, I know that things that I KNOW are important to me regardless of my orientation, are completely forsaken and ignored when I explore the otherside). Of course, although I've done well at some psychology courses and am a fairly intelligent pre-med at a very fine institution (forgive my immodesty here, I just want to give you a full picture of me when you evaluate any substance that may be in what I say), I am still only 22. Anyway, please take that with a grain of salt. Going back to my ideal though...I think what it is that I truly want is a good friendship...a "best-friendship" with that man who would seem like an ideal husband to my homosexual side, AND to have a family and spend the rest of my life with a woman ) I don't know how, but somehow you reminded me of my 1st girlfriend, and some of the things that she had taught me about beauty. It'll be a long, hard road still, and doubt will continue to nag me. That, however, is the burden of abuse, but I know with God's help, no cross is too heavy to bear. Thank you for your thoughts, and please feel free to share them with this post anytime--you're not just helping yourself, but others who are reading this post. God Bless.

#76422 - 12/18/00 09:56 PM Re: really tough
wert Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 21
Loc: Ut
Hey abcd,

I hope that things are going well for you and that you are making right choices. I have learned some vauable lessons over these past couple of months. Would like to share them with you sometime.

#474852 - 01/11/15 12:20 AM Re: really tough [Re: seekingGood]
victor-victim Offline

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3970
Loc: O Kanada
dear seekinggood,

that story really upsets and disturbs me.
it was obviously child abuse, regardless of what the survivor himself believes or the ignorant PERSON that said "that's different" when you made your point.

you were correct when you stated
"that co-worker couldn't understand that boys are the same as girls in their need for protection and a nurturing environment."

society's double standard clearly displayed in public.


#475955 - 01/25/15 11:22 AM Re: really tough [Re: abcd]
Serious Dave Offline

Registered: 01/18/15
Posts: 21
Loc: OH
"If you would not go into the house of sin*, do not sit at the door of temptation." Proverbs talks about the same thing - avoiding sin.

Actually, I can identify with your feelings. One ridiculous thing I do is, when I pick a new (male or female) doctor, I look at photos of the candidates. If everything else checks out, I'll pick the good looking one. They're just eye candy - I never act on my ssa feelings - I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

I will occasionally indulge a fantasy about a guy, but I know better than to act on it.

*It's not my intention to offend anyone in the LGBT community, but the tenets of my faith define certain things as sin that others may not. I love people for who they are, not what they do. (God does too, by the way!)

#475966 - 01/25/15 02:06 PM Re: really tough [Re: seekingGood]
Serious Dave Offline

Registered: 01/18/15
Posts: 21
Loc: OH

I am glad that you are seeking and that what you are seeking is Good. I absolutely loved "The Road Less Traveled". I re-read it here-and-there. That book straightened out my thinking on a lot of things and led to much self-discovery.

I agree with you that there are such things as right and wrong, good and evil. I encourage you to stay on the path of light. You already know the pain of the other road.

I don't feel guilty about my feelings for men. They are temptations only, not sin, unless acted upon. If temptations were sin, then Jesus would be a sinner, because the bible says he was tempted for 40 days in the wilderness. The Bible also says that he was tempted in every way, like us, but he did not sin.

When, as you say, we "plot" and plan to sin, that is lust, and Jesus called that sin because it's not a matter of if you'll sin, but when. I try to head it off at the temptation stage.

I can hear the pain and confusion in your life, and I am very sorry that you suffer so. Hold on to God. Read His Word and follow His direction - He has the words of life. He can pull you out of the pit - He did it for me. He is gracious and loving and wants you to be whole and happy. I hope that He will touch you wife's heart to be a help to you as you reach out to Him. Please always remember that the men here love and care about you. Stick with us.

God says, in Romans 8:1: "Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus." God does not condemn us, why should we condemn ourselves?

Sending you thoughts of love and peace,



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