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#76361 - 01/21/07 05:15 PM Re: Church
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
almost as difficult as maintaining faith,in a world thats going crazy

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76362 - 01/22/07 04:46 AM Re: Church
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
It's difficult to forego the benefits of religion, but I haven't looked back. I can indulge my wonder in science and the arts without boundaries that I had before, so for me it's a good trade.

I see that humans tend toward religion, and I find religion in atheists too, which is why I like Boyer's critique. Because you don't have to be properly religious to think religiously and that for me was the hardest part, to undo the religious thinking.

_________________________
"It's your world Dave, I'm just livin' in it"

- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
(American Splendour)

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#76363 - 01/22/07 03:28 PM Re: Church
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by AshSurvived:
It's difficult to forego the benefits of religion, but I haven't looked back. I can indulge my wonder in science and the arts without boundaries that I had before, so for me it's a good trade.
How do you account for the fact that the vast majority of great artists and scientists were also men of deep faith? Does this affect your enjoyment of their work? For example, Einstein sought to find the hand of God in physics. What does his work bring to you? I am not asking this to attack. I want your perspective, because I am unable to see these works without seeing God in them.

Quote:
I see that humans tend toward religion, and I find religion in atheists too, which is why I like Boyer's critique. Because you don't have to be properly religious to think religiously and that for me was the hardest part, to undo the religious thinking.
Atheists do not have a religion. The word atheos means "without God." If atheists had religion, they would be "something-ists" and not "atheists." By their very definition of themselves they are without religion.

I think that by "religion" what you are referring to is "ritualised behaviour." I agree. I have met several atheists who seem to me to lead very ritualised lives. Makes you think.

Ash, could you expand on what you mean by this quote?

"Because you don't have to be properly religious to think religiously and that for me was the hardest part, to undo the religious thinking."

How do you define "religious" and "thinking religiously" in the context of your atheism? What part of "religious thinking" did you need to undo?

Take care,

Nobby

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#138734 - 01/23/07 12:20 PM Re: Church [Re: Nobbynobs]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
What the Hell would we have without our spirituality, a little part of us that believes there is some cool place to go when we die!
I still have strong religious beliefs, even if its the times when God seemed to step in and help.
Its unbelievable for me to think how I avoided death when I was a trucker, but someone not of this life must have saved me!

Wish I knew why??

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#138783 - 01/23/07 09:43 PM Re: Church [Re: reality2k4]
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
what about men like da vinci,or newton ? who believed in a different version of the bible and christians , i dont believe in god ,i do believe in jesus ,but not as a superhuman being ,but as a mortal man how could a god ever tell us to live as he did? we are mortal men we cant be gods but we can be like jesus ,if we really wanted to. if you look in places that the cuurch doesnt like you to ,you might find that jesus had a real family ,mom dad wife and children .is that eaiser to believe than saying jesus just like happened ? imaculate conception?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#139167 - 01/26/07 09:27 PM Re: Church [Re: shadowkid]
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
Look I'd love to keep fuelling this thread, but I just don't want to. I had a think about it, and it's not what I'm into right now.

The problem for me is that I can't do chit-chat about the most important things in the universe at the moment. I take self delusion deadly seriously right now, and if I get into this anymore it'll be with claws, and that will just be pointless.

It's why I dropped out of uni last year as a mature age entry. I just realised I didn't want or need a degree in polite dinner table conversation. Maybe I will reach a point where I can talk all nonchalant about this sort of thing, but it really bothers me, it might always. I'm not sure I could talk casually about suicide planning or self harming either just at the moment.

I think it has a lot to do with my need to save the world, I get very caught up with other people's problems, and I need to create distance from that. Maybe when I realise no one cares, and everyone is more than happy to live under any delusion that takes their fancy, maybe when I can accept that, perhaps I will be able to let go.

_________________________
"It's your world Dave, I'm just livin' in it"

- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
(American Splendour)

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#139170 - 01/26/07 09:41 PM Re: Church [Re: AshSurvived]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Ash,

Just want to offer you a good, safe hug. Hope you don't mind.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#139442 - 01/29/07 06:09 PM Re: Church [Re: WalkingSouth]
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Hey Haus,

I saw your original post last month and wanted to say something but opted out. I don't why I want to say something tonight but maybe it's because I have had a crisis of faith myself...but I think that I've found a way around it, not particularly fighting it straight on or fighting it all. I come from a totally involved church life. My wife and I met in church when we were kids. I have been the president of the chuch council, sang in choir and men's chorus and was trained as a teacher of small group leaders. And, while my congregation is involved with all sorts of community efforts of helping kids get clothes for school and their parents to have food on the table and for women and their children to have protection from abusive husbands, I chose to remove myself from the liturgy of praising him for this or that and asking him for forgiveness for falling short. I will devote myself to one or two of these social agencies such as Doctors Without Borders or International Mercy Corps. Somehow just doing it directly for others is enough for me right now, I'll leave the psalm singing to someone else for the time being.
Peace, Houser, we'll all get there if we continue watch out for one another.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#139641 - 01/30/07 10:04 PM Re: Church [Re: Ivanhoe]
GWsurvives Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 251
Loc: Atlanta, and here, among othe...
I too, have a huge problem with "god".. I was rasied in the baptist church.. you know, where "god looks over the sparrow, so he surely looks over me" ? WTF?? He made my perp! SO does god just not love me? or... does he simply not exist? When I was 12 it was much easier to believe that he did not exist than he simply didn't love me. 30 years latter, I have questions, but no answers.

_________________________
"Some times there just aren't enough rocks" Forrest Gump

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#139650 - 01/30/07 11:04 PM Re: Church [Re: GWsurvives]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11056
Loc: Denver, CO
If I may offer a perspective... And it's certainly open for rebuttal.

I know that God made people as free-moral agents. We have the power of choice. We can choose all kinds of things without being forced. I felt one time that in order to exercise my power of choice, I would have to be left alone to make my choice. I recall certain times when my parents chose for me, and I hated that. I wanted to make my choice. I did not want them standing in the way of my choice. I wanted to see for myself. Sometimes I chose wisely. Other times I chose poorly, but I still made my choice.

That being said, if I was making a choice that I believed with all my might was the right one at the time, I would not want someone standing in my way, even God. I never expect God to appear out of the blue and say "No! This will not be!' For God to choose for me, I would become a slave, or a robot. I want to make my choices. If I choose to love God, that makes it genuine love and not forced. For the same token, God will not stand in the way of someone choosing evil, from the smallest infraction to the greatest of sins. I am a free-moral agent. So is/was my perp.

What happened to me is the consequence of someone choosing evil. Is it fair? Not by a longshot. Is it free-moral agency? Completely. But to blame God for an evil person's choice just doesn't strike me as properly-placed blame.

In regards to a perp, God did not create a perp. God created a baby. Later on, someone else made him/her into a perp through their bad choices. That does not excuse what he/she did as a perp by any stretch. He/she committed wrong and should pay for it.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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