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#76296 - 12/13/06 04:07 PM Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
Nobbynobs Offline
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From the forgiveness thread: Let's discuss this parable.

Matthew 18

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

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#76297 - 12/13/06 04:58 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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i love this. there is a lot there.

to begin we must become humble. if we are proud in ourselves or in things we will not have salvation. we must humble ourselves to His will, and stop living for our own.

we also see another refrence that not everyone in this world is his. in other parables he teaches of bad figs, tares, those that claim to be from God, but are not from God at all. they will cause many to fall through all sorts of means. do you realize only two churches in Revelations taught this, and that they were the only ones that Christ accepted? have you been taught that Satan has children in this world?

this also shows us that at judgment all of them will answer for the pain they inflict on us. they will suffer eternal death.

finally, we are warned here to be aware of our life. anything that we place before God offends. it might be the car you drive, sex or your wife that you hold higher than God. He teaches to put off those things that keep you from God.

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#76298 - 12/13/06 05:12 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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i dont understand ny of this

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#76299 - 12/13/06 05:12 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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sorry ,i dont understand any of this

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when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76300 - 12/13/06 05:42 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by phoster:
this also shows us that at judgment all of them will answer for the pain they inflict on us. they will suffer eternal death.

finally, we are warned here to be aware of our life. anything that we place before God offends. it might be the car you drive, sex or your wife that you hold higher than God. He teaches to put off those things that keep you from God.
2 very good points. For the first, I would add, "As we will suffer for the pain we inflict on others, unless we beg for their forgiveness. (and forgive others for the pain they have inflicted on us)"

For the second, I agree completely. The problem though is knowing when you are holding something higher than God. Pride is very sneaky and sometimes we cherish something, whether it is anger, or money, and feel that we are justified to do so because someone hurt us in the past or because we grew up poor. I know that I struggle daily with pride.

The millstone parable perplexes me though. I don't think Jesus is referring to children literally, but to humanity as the children of God. I also don't think he is referring to child molesters specifically. I think that he is referring to anyone who leads God's children into sin, whether they are a child molester, or a teacher or even a saint. And he is saying that the fate of those people, if they don't mend their ways and repent, is pretty awful. But, I would argue, the fate of the child who has fallen into sin is equally as unpleasant if they persist in a life of sin and don't redeem themselves.

I find it interesting that this parable is followed immediately by the parable of the lost sheep, which describes God's delight when a lost sinner is redeemed. We must never forget that everyone, including perps, receives God's grace and that he loves us all equally.

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- Mel Brooks

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#76301 - 12/13/06 05:52 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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a friend recently asked me what i could do to become closer to God. in examining my life, i know i should follow the health laws, and i wasnt. i knew i was sinning, and did so anyway, and that was keeping me from being as close to God as i could have been. i repented and started doing what i knew was right. i was sneaking into porn, and again the same thing. i dont think these things have to be firm. they are ever changing, and we must constantly evaluate our life for how we can serve and humble ourselves better.

i am quite sure the children Christ reffered to are any of His children. most lessons can be applied to the flesh, meaning flesh children, but also to the spirit meaning us, all of us.

upon repentance sin is washed away. it is blotted out like it never happened. if you repent when you hurt someone, i am not sure you are required to seek thier forgiveness, only forgiveness from God.

see, i realized long ago that if my perp went on through life without repenting, he would answer for it. if on the other hand he turned to God then he is no longer what he was when he abused me. he becomes a new person, and who am i to judge? at that point, if i expect to be forgiven for my sins, shouldnt i also be willing to forgive those that sinned against me?

i trust God, and i long ago left it in His hands. if Mat has repented and has God's forgiveness, he has mine as well.

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#76302 - 12/13/06 06:02 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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a child does not fall into sin! what have you done thats so terrible?

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#76303 - 12/13/06 06:11 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by phoster:
upon repentance sin is washed away. it is blotted out like it never happened. if you repent when you hurt someone, i am not sure you are required to seek thier forgiveness, only forgiveness from God.
You are not required, but by seeking their forgiveness you save them from holding anger against you. In other (ie. the original) words, you are your brother's keeper.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#76304 - 12/13/06 06:13 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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a flesh child has a cloke of innocence until he reaches an age of understanding. at that point he too is accountable for his actions, and can in fact fall into sin. certainly, we are God's children, all of us. some are very old, can they fall into sin? certainly they can.

what have i done? i was an adulterer. i was a liar. i have hated and i have lusted. i have sinned over and over. yet, i have also repented, had a change of heart. i am washed clean. i have sinned, but i am forgiven, and once more i am innocent and pure like a child.

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compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#76305 - 12/13/06 06:58 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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so let me get this straight,are you saying if the perp falls down on his knees and asks gods forgivness its like none of what he did ever happened? no if it works like that then i want no part of it. but i do believe you have explained why 90%of the holier than me people in this world have religon in their lives ,this is so crazy even a child could understand it !how cool is it to believe in a religon that says i can go out all week long and do whatever i damn well please even molest but all i have to do is go to church on sunday and i get a clean slate!because god loves me and forgives me? he knows im only human?! amazing

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#76306 - 12/13/06 07:11 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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see you miss the point. you can't do whatever you want. repentance requires a change of heart. someone that would lightheartedly bow down is only giving lip service, and they havent repented. thier sin is still there. until they change inside they havent gotten forgiveness. you can't do whatever you want and go to church on sunday and blow it off. it doesnt work that way. there has to be a change of heart, and one name used for God's name in greek translates to cardio knower, heart knower. He knows what is in our heart. You cannot give Him lip service and be saved. You will be turned to ashes from within.

also, having the stain of your sin washed away doesnt mean anyone forgets. we remember so that we can learn and grow. the memories are still there, but we are no longer spiritually accountable for a sin we have truly repented of.

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compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#76307 - 12/13/06 07:24 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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then why!hasnt my perp been turned into ashes? how can saying well 50 years from now if im right about this whole god thing my perp is gonna be in big trouble be seen as justice? and how do you know your right!!?faith? heh yeah i used to have faith ,but i didnt have to wait till i died to find out it was a lie,its like this is one of those discussions where neither side can give in ,i can give a thousand examples of times when god has done nothing ,give me one where he has done something?and please dont say well your alive arent you,thats something thats up for debate also.if some people think our discussions on this become shouting matches or that we get angry im sorry ,for me i take part not to just rag on god or those who believe ,but to try to find answers to questions that are important to me ,you see i really do wish i could be as sure as you guys are ,i want to believe maybe more than most . i want to go to heaven when i die ,but i also beleived in the tooth fairy and santa claus.i dont know maybe im just outgrowing the fairy tales we are all told to keep us in line

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#76308 - 12/13/06 07:40 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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he isnt ashes because he hasnt been judged. judgement doesnt happen until God returns. in that instant all evil will melt away, and those that overcome will enjoy a new heaven and a new earth.

how do i know i am right, because God has given me eyes to see and ears that hear. i know because it is written. an example? Christ is an example. You dont have to turn to the Bible for Christ, check history He walked. An example? how many things of the Bible must be unearthed by science to prove it isnt a fairy tale, and how do you prove to those that cannot believe?

hundreds of years before Christ, it was written how He would die, what he would teach from the cross, even that they would be at his feet gambling for his clothes. the psalms testifying that very thing were written for a fact hundreds of years before it happened. do you think men can do this? No, the word was penned by men, but every letter is where it is by God's hand, not men.

when one has been hurt such as you have, do you see that your perp has driven you from God? he has caused your doubt, but you have a place in this as well. you have a choice to make, do you follow God or Satan? all follow one or belong to the other by default.

Christ speaks of the parable of the sewer. here is a seed in what i say, will it fall on rocky ground? is your heart so hard that there is no hope of it growing? if it does sprout, is your anger and hate so powerful that it will choke it out? is your depression so strong that the roots cannot take, and the seed perishes for lack of a root?

in the end, as a called vessle of God, i have a duty to witness to you, and to say what i know. just as true you alone are accountable for your life, and you alone must chose how you will live. how do you know, you read the love letter He sent you, and pray for wisdom. He will show you the rest.

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#76309 - 12/13/06 08:48 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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The parable of the little ones is tricky for me, as a catholic boy, it scared me half to death.
adam cant understand because he cannot see the options available.

God just wants us to be good ppl to each other, and not hurt little kids, no big deal, why? Hurt a small child is beyond most ppl.

I live a humble life, and it pays off, because I got most things I need to live, and nature supplies the beauty.

I dont go to church, but that does not mean I am not close to God.
Anger of the past is still with me, but largely I can live without it affecting me now.

God has ways of repaying us on earth, I have met that on many occasions,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#76310 - 12/13/06 08:54 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
phoster Offline
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wherever men gather in the name of God, that is where church is. it isnt some building. knowing the rapture is a false doctrine, and know the things i know, i cannot find a building to attend. i wish i could, but i cannot. i dont think a person has to go to a building to have God in them.

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compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#76311 - 12/13/06 09:38 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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i been waiting all my life for god to come im tired of waiting ,if i dont believe in god i belong to satan? no dont believe that but that is an example of the threats religon uses to keep you in line!!!its perfect!BELIEVE WHAT I SAY OR ELSE?whats up with that?why do you feel sorry for me like im just lost with no chance?its legalized abuse!!!my perp said the same things to me that religon demands from you!!obey or else!yeah that was a rule,give me your mind body and soul yeah he said that ,you no longer belong to you now you belong to me ,said that,do exactly as i say or you will pay in the end ,believe everything i say even if it hurts you ,live your life for me not for yourself,i have a book ,yeah me ,its called a purpose driven life ,surprised? well im sure some of you have read it ,reading that book scared the crap out of me cause my abuser could have written it ,at least the parts about how we can serve god . when you quote from the bible as an answer it means nothing to me ,i dont understand the language ,it dont make sense to me but maybe its supposed to be that way.if you would wait for god to give you justice ,will you ever know if you got it? faith?faith dont pay the bills as they say ,i dont think that when they die they will be punished ,and even if they are how will that help me or you? faith wont stop my nightmares ,faith wont make me whole again ,WHYshould i believe that god will help me or punish anybody?i believed with the heart of a child and no one can convince me that god cared what happened to me,that god was there with me?!how can it be ok to believe that this sick animal is gonna be allowed to go right on destroying gods children ,real children because he will pay in the end! does that make sense to you ?what about the perps that dont get caught and have hundreds of victims ? i dont sleep better at night thinking oh well gods gonna get them in the end !you want me to believe there is a god ?ok i believe he exists ,but he does nothing and you can explain that ten ways to hell and back but its not gonna make sense,is it?if hes there its his back that your worshiping,.maybe hes too busy thinkig up ways to punish perps when they finally stop abusing and die,i guess all the shattered lives along the way are what they call colatteral damage,the end justifies the means.i wont follow anybody by default,not my perp not god not satan .

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#76312 - 12/13/06 09:56 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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adam, ppl use God as an excuse to do satanic things, all manner of ppl do it.
God gave me the power to remember myself from 4-10yo, the rest is broken.

I know me as the same ten yo, frightened and scared but still a child of God.

God was with you when you saved the coon, he was with you when you did loads of good stuff with the kids etc.

If an abuser says it is Gods wish then he better start repenting because he is going into the fire for all eternity,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#76313 - 12/13/06 10:12 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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he didnt tell me he was god ,for me he was god.when he had his hands around my neck he held the power of life or death over me.thats as close to god as i ever got

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its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76314 - 12/13/06 10:24 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Close as Satan got you mean,
God doesnt kill kids ppl do,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#76315 - 12/14/06 12:50 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
Nobbynobs Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by phoster:
wherever men gather in the name of God, that is where church is. it isnt some building.
I sort of agree, although the old word for the church, corpus christi explains what the Church really is. It is the body of Christ, represented on earth by those people who have chosen to follow his path. Therefore for me the Church is where ever I happen to be.

Quote:
,for me i take part not to just rag on god or those who believe ,but to try to find answers to questions that are important to me ,you see i really do wish i could be as sure as you guys are ,i want to believe maybe more than most . i want to go to heaven when i die ,but i also beleived in the tooth fairy and santa claus.i dont know maybe im just outgrowing the fairy tales we are all told to keep us in line.
Adam, if this is true then I have a message for you. Phoster, and Ste, and I, along with the other people at Malesurvivor who have found spiritual peace, want nothing more in this world for you to find this peace as well.

We are trying very hard to show you the path, but we are coming up hard against your pain and anger. This is not a bad thing. We have all been terribly hurt, and it is extremely difficult to get through that kind of pain.

And we are not trying to convert or condemn you either. God is very clear about conversion. He encourages us to help others along the path, not tell them where they should be going. And condemnation is just judgement, which is sinful.

All I can say is let's keep talking.

---------------------

So back to the Parable of the Children. (I like this name better)

Phoster, you said,

"to begin we must become humble. if we are proud in ourselves or in things we will not have salvation. we must humble ourselves to His will, and stop living for our own."

Phoster, I read that this morning, and it has taken me down a very strange road. Here are my thoughts, hope they make sense to you:

Humility is often one of the most unpleasant lessons from God. Personally I can say that I have not enjoyed God's lessons on humility one bit, even though I have needed them.

That said, lately I have been drawing on my abuse as a source of humility. By this I mean that at times when I feel my pride getting out of control, I will say to myself, "you have been brought low before."

I often wonder at the source of this. I don't feel any shame over my abuse, and I am certainly not a self-destructive person.

Personally, I don't think God was behind my abuse, and he certainly wasn't acting in my perp. However, I think he has definitely played a role in my understanding of the assault and its place within my life. Pride is a very difficult thing to maintain when you have been beaten and raped and I am wondering what lesson God has been trying to teach me with these lessons.

In the Parable, Jesus speaks of those who lead children into sin, and I believe that perps do this by tearing away childrens' hopes. By killing childrens' hopes, the perps are putting those children at risk of falling. However, God works in mysterious ways, and sometimes his gifts are not always readily apparent. When I forgave my perp, I felt freed from my abuse and the negative feelings I associated with it. Now, I find myself turning to my abuse as a source of strength.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#76316 - 12/14/06 03:49 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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thanks guys ,i do understand totaly and hey if i found the truth i would want to share it with you also,its a testement to where we are as people that we can talk like we have here,i really do understand that you guys are only trying to help me all i can ask is dont loose paientience with me k? if it wasnt important to all of us any one of us could have just said ok ive had enough of this and dropped out of the thread. i only keep questioning cause i dont have the answers yet ,but i do respect that your not trying to force anything on me ,like i said if i found something that helped i would want everyone to know about it ,but i would understand if some people have been hurt bad enough that they need proof.thank you all for wanting to give me something good i posted this on another thread but i think its so cool that we can 'discuss' lol, things and show emotion ,but at the end of the day we can walk away as friends . the only thing stronger than my desire for answers is my respect for all of you. adam

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#76317 - 12/14/06 10:06 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
reality2k4 Offline
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adam, imagine the weight of all the crap from the past, its like a millstone.
None of it should be yours or ours, its too much to carry.

God does work in mysterious ways, but he does pick you up when you fall, even when you think not.

The millstone he promised to those who hurt you is for eternity, not life, eternity.
They will be accountble for their lives on earth.

Time is your tutor, but look for him and you will find him,

ste

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#76318 - 12/14/06 12:30 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Adam, I trust in God and His love for us. All will know the truth before they are judged, and they will be judged based on accepting or rejecting God. You donít have to worship Satan outright to reject God, and when you reject God you are in the same boat as Satan.

Do you understand that everyone that has ever lived has either had the seal of God or the mark of the beast? It is one way or the other. Either your mind belongs to God and carries His seal, or it doesnít. Either your hands do the work of God, or they donít. There is no middle ground here. This is the whole reason the flesh age is here, for each person to be born ignorant and innocent, so that they may choose whom they will love.

God created us for His pleasure, millions of years ago. Then we made a home here, and we lived for millions of years serving God. Until Lucifer, our high priest decided he was as powerful as God, and that he was equal to God. Then he led a third of Godís children in revolt and rebellion, and there was a civil war in heaven. God and His third won, and God faced an awful task. He faced having to destroy a third of His children, but what if they werenít all evil? What if Satan and his influence were removed? Would they still choose him? That is what we are here trying to find out.

Do you understand that this flesh life is trivial. It is a small test, compared to eternal life. What are the few years we have here when we live forever? Do you understand that this life is a test? It is going to have problems, because God wants to know whom you will turn to, and who you will follow when times are hard. When this is over, He wants to know that you love and follow Him no matter what. We donít want to have to do this again. When this is over, those that are left will be strong and sure. Those that might rebel again will be removed.

God will not judge someone until they know the truth. That is why so many are blinded to the truth now. If they fail without knowing the truth, then they can be excused and taught before they are judged. I know that with all that has happened to you that you may never believe in the flesh. You may never find your answers here, but I also trust that God will make sure you have your answers and make your informed choice before you are judged. You will find the truth and either accept or reject it either here or in the thousand years Christ reigns. Then the cloak of ignorance will be removed, and you will know all I am saying and more. You will remember the word, and it will not have to be taught to you. In that time you will be taught discipline and strength, but that will be a much harder path than the one of grace now open to you. In the millennium you can either be one of the teachers, the saints, or you can be one of the people that needs taught and judged.

They make out judgment as some frightening thing. I suppose if you are not Godís child you ought to be afraid, but if you are Godís it will be like the children in the fiery furnace. You will stand with Christ in the midst of purifying fire, and not even have the smell of smoke on your clothes. In an instant all evil will melt away, and the pure of heart will rise out of the flames. Those that remain will be a family forever more. When God renews this earth one final time, He will erase all of this. We will not grieve for those lost, because we will not even remember them. It will be a new beginning.
The hardest thing being a servant has is watching all the stuff going on around you. You know the truth, but the world doesnít want to hear. You knock on doors, only to have them closed over and over. The scroll, the Bible was sweet when God opened to me and I ate it up. It is bitter in my stomach because for all I have been shown, I cannot change anything. No one wants to hear. That is frustrating beyond measure. I sit and watch the events unfold. I watch the new world order form. I wait for the deadly wound, and for Satan to appear and save the world. I wait to see him work wonders and call lightening down and cure people. I wait to see this world run after him thinking he is Christ. I will know better, but I will be powerless to stop any of it. I will watch those I love fall into his trap, and I will be unable to stop them. I watch the cares of the world wrack my brothers like you and others here. I know the answers, but I cannot give them to you. I know God, and I cannot open your heart to Him. That is my grief. I am a sure as the sun rising of all I know, because it came from God himself, but as sure as I am, I cannot give you one word of it. So I pray to God for you and for others, hoping a few might hear, or that perhaps another such as myself may be waiting for this. I pray and I watch. I watch and I wait. I watch all the suffering, all the confusion that aggravates me so. I watch the lost, and wish I could help them. That is my pain. The hardest thing for me is knowing, and not being able to share, because this is a spiritual war, and faith and love are not things you can give another. They start inside each person, and for all I know, I cannot put anything into anotherís heart.

You are in my prayers. I am faithful in time you will have your answers. I am faithful that all that can will be saved.

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#76319 - 12/14/06 08:16 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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god created us for his pleasure? all this shit is a test? what kind of god would put a child through that ?

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#76320 - 12/14/06 09:02 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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adam, I remember seeing a very sick young boy being wheeled around in a chair, he must have been about 12yo, but you could see he was very ill.

God, took him out of his hurt and now he is dead.
I cried for him as he was a little fighter, but now he is free of his shackles and the many operations he had to endure.

Unfortunately children are brought into the world to not survive.
Do I blame God? No, of course not, for whatever reason God chose to take this child back into his fold.

You can be angry at him, curse him, but if you have lived a good life he will accept you.
Nobody can fool the supreme judge of life who will condemn those who hurt children for their own sick pleasure.

He holds the ultimate weapons of mass destruction in mother nature who can cast nations into famine and despair, but that is not Gods will, it is mans will when he seeks to destroy his own environment and that of others.

Its easy for us guys to say this, as we are decades older, and have lived through the similar experiences where we cursed God for not being there.

Many times, he has shown me that he is there, through my life.
Those who choose the mark of the beast are condemned for eternity, not just this life,

ste

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#76321 - 12/15/06 03:21 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Quote:
Originally posted by phoster:
The scroll, the Bible was sweet when God opened to me and I ate it up. It is bitter in my stomach because for all I have been shown, I cannot change anything. No one wants to hear. That is frustrating beyond measure. I sit and watch the events unfold. I watch the new world order form. I wait for the deadly wound, and for Satan to appear and save the world. I wait to see him work wonders and call lightening down and cure people. I wait to see this world run after him thinking he is Christ. I will know better, but I will be powerless to stop any of it. I will watch those I love fall into his trap, and I will be unable to stop them. I watch the cares of the world wrack my brothers like you and others here. I know the answers, but I cannot give them to you. I know God, and I cannot open your heart to Him. That is my grief. I am a sure as the sun rising of all I know, because it came from God himself, but as sure as I am, I cannot give you one word of it. So I pray to God for you and for others, hoping a few might hear, or that perhaps another such as myself may be waiting for this. I pray and I watch. I watch and I wait. I watch all the suffering, all the confusion that aggravates me so. I watch the lost, and wish I could help them. That is my pain. The hardest thing for me is knowing, and not being able to share, because this is a spiritual war, and faith and love are not things you can give another. They start inside each person, and for all I know, I cannot put anything into anotherís heart.

You are in my prayers. I am faithful in time you will have your answers. I am faithful that all that can will be saved.
Phoster, I am not a believer in Armageddon, but I feel exactly the same way as you do about the pain of being Christian. Absolutely the worst thing about Christianity (and I suspect this is the same among true believers in any faith) is the sense you describe of being an outsider. Some days it's all I can do to keep from sinking into despair as I watch people make self-destructive choices, especially when you can see how close they are to the Light. Or days when I pray and I just don't feel the connection to God. It's not an easy path. Sometimes all you've got is your faith because there sure isn't anything else.

At times like these, I always try to reflect that Jesus himself, condemned by his community and abandoned by his friends, at the very point of death, had his moment of doubt in God's love when he was on the cross.

Matthew 27:46
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?"ówhich means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Yet despite this, God still accepted him into heaven and the centurions proclaimed him as the Son of God (also the only time in the Gospels where Jesus is proclaimed the Son of God.) God's love is infinite, and I think he cries along with us when we are frustrated and in despair.

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#76322 - 12/15/06 04:55 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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there are gospels that are not being quoted here or in any church ,right? there are other explainations for all of this and they were written during the life of jesus,the bible is believed to have been agreed upon ,not written at least 40 years after jesus died .what about the Gnostic gospells? the gospell of thomas opens with the line'these are the secret words which the living jesus spoke,and which the twin judas thomas wrote down ,or the gospel of phillip that describes jesus's relationship with mary as an intimate one ,the common thread in all 52 of these gospels is that to know ones self ,at the deepest level was to know god by looking within oneself to find the sources of joy sorrow love hate .it took over 200 years for the new testament to be finished.the gnostic gospels were banned because the jesus they describe was just a roving wise man who preached a life of possesionless wandering and of wholehearted acceptence of fellow human beings ,hes not here to save us from sin and eternal damnation ,hes here to guide us to somekind of spiritual understanding ,and once a disciple reaches enlightenment the master is no longer needed ,the teacher and the student become equal .these gospels see jesus as a teacher ,they consider him a man ,someone you or me could emulate.but that didnt work for the church ,he couldnt just be a man ,he had to be more,he had to be the son of god.he had to be unique,because by being unique,the church becomes unique,the only path to salvation .by making jesus the son of god the church could then say if your not with us your doomed to eternal damnation.none of what ended up in the bible was part of what the imediate followers of jesuse believed in. where would the curch be if jesus was just a man ,and what if god is not some guy up in wherever people think heaven is ,what if god is us ,men ,oridanry men we have the power to do good or evil or nothing . without jesus and god people dont need the church and lets face it ,the church has been running the show for a long time ,religon is the biggest bussiness going .where would the priests go to troll for kids? what you guys are talking about started out as a good thing ,but it went to hell somewhere along the way ,and of course if you have god you got to have satan right? heh they could have just as easy made satan a circus clown and people would still believe it . maybe people are not getting all the facts?

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#76323 - 12/15/06 05:18 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Wow Adam, there's a lot in there.

For me a "Gospel" is anyone's testament to their experience of Jesus. The "official" gospels in the Bible are exactly as you say, they were written years after Jesus died. It is very likely that none of the original 12 Apostles could even read, let alone write, so they passed the story of Jesus along by word of mouth, and it wasn't until much later that Hebrew and Greek scholars began to write everything down. The four gospels of the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are the 4 that these scholars "Believed" to be the closest to the truth. The other gospels may be equally true, but at the time, they were not available to the authors of the Bible. They worked with what they had.

As to the role of Jesus as the son of God; well that is just one interpretation of his role. There are Jews who believe he is the Messiah. The Muslims think he was a prophet similar to Moses or Isiah. I guess what I am saying is that Jesus is what you want him to be. If for you he is a simple teacher of men, then that is what he is for you.

The thing to keep in mind is that all paths lead to God. I have chosen the path of "Trinitarian" Christianity (I believe in the Holy Trinity) , because I think it is the right faith for me. Part of that acceptance means that I express a lot of my ideas as a Trinitarian. Other faiths, such as the Coptics, don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Holy Spirit, and they focus on God. I guess what I am trying to say is, choose your own path, and walk on it.

All that guys like me and Phoster and Ste are trying to do is help you along the way. Because all three of us have chosen Christianity, we are sticking to what we know best. I know that this sometimes makes us hard to take, and I know that Christianity can come across as being pretty harsh. And in a lot of ways, Christianity _is_ harsh, and I know that I have been guilty of pushing the message too hard. But it is the path we have chosen to follow and we are trying to help other people along their way.

Finally, I think it is very cool that you are exploring this with us. Even if you do not choose Christianity, you should know that you have been really helping me understand my own faith. I only hope that we are helping you understand yours.

Take care,

Nobby

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#76324 - 12/15/06 05:34 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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heh and sometimes i fight too hard myself you know whats great about this thread ? its been a long one and to be honest i have felt just about every emotion while its been running ,at times it might have looked like we were all bitter enemies ,but it came out so cool ,all of us trying to understand not being mad but listening to each other and yes it is helping me . its helped me understand a lot about people ,myself included . this thread started out being about god ,but it ended up being about people ,people who will speak out about what they believe ,people helping people ,people putting emotions aside and finding respect for each other .thaks guys i learned a lot adam

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#76325 - 12/15/06 11:39 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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"Do unto others as thy would have done to thyself".

We have doctors whose job it is to save kids lives, they cry to God when they lose one, and there are many good ppl like those all around.

Then we have the evil angry man who is bloodlust and will kill an innocent child for his own lust, or whatever else it takes.

There is the more evil man who uses his guile to persuade adults he is pure and Godly who will prey on their children openly and without fear of consequence.

Getting back to the Bible, yes, there are many other written testaments and the book is only a small sample of his life, and the rest could be seen as gossip by followers of the church.

But no, if somebody lays testament it should be looked at by experts and seen as further evidence of what he was about.

The vatican holds most of the clues but they will not divulge a lot of it to the public.
I have divorced myself from church, but it is only a building.

My church is within me, and nothing can pursuade me to go back.
Yes, there are indeed dark powers on earth, they always have been there, and I could mention some of them.

None of us are preaching, it is a good thread,

ste

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#76326 - 12/15/06 01:13 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Hey everyone,
In reading this i too was filled with tons of emotions. From pissed to pleased, all in a very short time. i don't have much time to write this morning. So, i'll make this brief and come back to elaborate later. I am very close to this positive energy that i call the universal spirit. Sometimes i refer to her as mother god. sometimes i refer to him as father god, and sometimes i say both father and mother god together. sometimes i just refer to this divine spiritual force as the universe. i have had my experiences with organized religion, no abuse issues though. just reading the first part of this thread gave me the creeps. i don't want to follow any group of people or any god that would talk about gouging out eyes and cutting off hands and feet, sick. i do not beleive in sin or satan or heaven or hell. The spirit i beleive in wouldn't be jealous. It wouldn't want to scare the shit out of us. It 's the people who invented these types of religions that wanted to set the rules, they wanted to scare the shit out of us, so they could get what they wanted, power over the people. I do believe in energy. dark and light in the humman body as well as all around us. i also believe that we are at spiritual war with the dark energy of the planet. but how does scaring the shit out of a whole bunch of people help them to fight spiritually? it dosen't. It didn't give us any more power to fight our perps then and the after effects now having the shit scared out of us did it? and actually it made things alot worse. My god is all loving, all accepting , and all knowing. My god is pure love energy
I don't have to have a mediator or middle man to get me close to god. I do meditation and i feed my soul the loving ennergy that comes from oour spiritual contact. with spiritual awareness i come to know the truth as god would have me see it not someone else. gottta go, light and luv, sis


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#76327 - 12/15/06 04:46 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Here is what it all comes down to, if a person professes to believe in God, the God of Abraham, then you believe in His power and that He created this world. If you believe in that, you have to believe that His letter to you is divine. In other words, the original manu>
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#76328 - 12/15/06 05:00 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Phoster,

I have opened my heart to God, and I know that he is with me. I too share your fears. What I don't understand is why God calls all of us in such a different way. Like I said, I don't believe in the Armageddon as you do, but I know that I have been saved in Christ.

I spoke to a good friend of mine yesterday about this, because it has been tormenting me. He is a true man of God and a preacher. He said that God calls us all according to the song of our souls, and that the best we can do is go with what our hearts are telling us. God knows each of us best, and he won't lead us astray.

It's a hard lesson to remember, especially when the truth that God has given each of us doesn't necessarily accord with the truth he has given others. I just try to keep faith.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#76329 - 12/15/06 05:28 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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what i am reminded is how Christ often answered questions, He always began with, "Havent you read?"

here is the thing, the Word is more complete than most ever know, but it will not open up for men. it is God that allows you to see the mystery or not. also what level of understanding you are allowed is also in His hands. Do you think this is unfair?

see there is a lot behind the scenes we dont know. for example, have you ever wondered why God hated Essau when he was still in the womb? it is because God knew him from before. He knew what kind of soul he was, and what kind of person he would be. I can gaurentee if he was hated, he earned that hate.

though we'll be back to the nut thing again, i have gone this far. the reason some are chosen vessles, as Paul was is because of what they did in the first earth age. He earned the right to be of service to God as he was. it doesnt make him better or anything, but he is rewarded for what he has done. almost certainly he was one of the third that fought at God's side when satan rebelled, and he was chosen for that reason.

at some point, Satan must have been something. For God to elevate him to high priest, and to make him the full pattern and bless him that way, there was a time when he must have been something to behold.

have you ever wondered about things like why humans use so little of thier brains? what is in all the extra brain tissue? memories of the world that was perhaps?

what about the dino's? bones millions of years old, supposidly predating men. we were there, but we were in our spiritual bodies. there are no human remains because we were not flesh then, and we didnt die to leave fossils. the dino's are lifeforms from before the overthrow, and they went extinct when God destroyed the first earth age.

does this all sound strange? that is how far today's teaching has strayed from what is there. that is where God can lead you if you are given an eye to see from him, and if you can escape the traditions of men that make void the word of God.

well, i have said far too much. take what you will from it. Armegeddon doesnt happen until the end of flesh. it is judgment day, and many things must happen before then. many things written are symbolic and spiritual, if you think in the flesh you will not understand. open your mind as you read, and ask God for understanding. He will give you what you can handle, and as He says, "seek and ye shall find." seeking is an active, ongoing search. unless you look for the mystery, it will run right by you.

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#76330 - 12/15/06 05:38 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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did any of what i said get through? what you been taught and what you read in the bible is not the whole truth!!!!!!!!! if your mind is totaly closed then you are saying either you believe what i believe or your doomed !your not serving god your serving the church ,the biggest scam in history!i think we each have the right to believe what we want to and just as my truth is not yours your truth does not have to be mine! dont feel sorry for me i have my eyes and my mind open if i walk thoruogh life with my eyes closed i could never see your god or anybody elses.why? why does good have to come from some place we have to imagine in our head?why cant it just be that there are good and bad people in the world and nobody makes them one way or the other,i have faith that there are good people ,its something tangible ,not a fairy tale that i been forced to believe ,give man a little credit here k?if its good its god if its bad its satan ,its ok to say well men do bad things but only god does good things?

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#76331 - 12/15/06 05:52 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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I never said you were damned if you do not believe as i do. i have said i trust in God and His plan for salvation. just because you dont believe as i do, doesnt mean you are lost. it means you dont believe as i do. i will not answer for you at judgment. lets take someone that believes in Christ and has asked forgiveness for thier sin. if they die today, here and now. they have all they need for salvation. they may think i am the biggest nut job in history and totally hate all i have said, but if they have Christ they are saved. that is between them and God.

i also have never said that all evil is satan. we all have freewill. we are quite able to do evil things without any influence from God. an elect vessle can turn his back on God, and drift so far into sin that he can lose salvation. by the same token, someone evil can turn to God and have salvation. Essau could have had salvation, but God knew the spiritual Essau wasnt interested, and chances were he would still disown his salvation in the flesh because that is where his heart was.

good or evil are all up to us, each of us. that is what God is trying to find out, what is in your heart? are you evil or good, and realize it is in your power to be either. you have freewill to choose. you can choose evil, and rape and kill if that is what you choose. you can choose not to believe anything. you can choose to be a saint. whatever you have done in the past is behind you. today is whatever you make it. that is in your power.

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#76332 - 12/15/06 06:50 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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Quote:
Originally posted by phoster:
I never said you were damned if you do not believe as i do. i have said i trust in God and His plan for salvation. just because you dont believe as i do, doesnt mean you are lost. it means you dont believe as i do. i will not answer for you at judgment. lets take someone that believes in Christ and has asked forgiveness for thier sin. if they die today, here and now. they have all they need for salvation.
Amen.


Quote:
they may think i am the biggest nut job
Well, you made it into my top 10 with the dinosaurs thing. ;\)

Quote:
good or evil are all up to us, each of us. that is what God is trying to find out, what is in your heart? are you evil or good, and realize it is in your power to be either. you have freewill to choose. you can choose evil, and rape and kill if that is what you choose. you can choose not to believe anything. you can choose to be a saint. whatever you have done in the past is behind you. today is whatever you make it. that is in your power.
This is the main point. We have free will. We can believe in God. Or not. We can choose to follow one set of teachings, or another. But every single faith on this planet, every one, has the same rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Whether you believe in salvation, or nirvana, or the Paradise of Allah, the instructions to attain it are the same.

Phoster and I are trying to teach our path, in the hopes that it will help one of you find your own. We want this more than anything in the world, because we also want more than anything in the world to have someone help us on our own paths. We are teaching others in the hopes that someone will teach us.

Personally, I think to turn your back on the possibility that there is a better way is naive and irresponsible. There is something within every human, I don't care who they are, that strives for good. I don't know what this thing is. Phoster doesn't know what it is. If anyone tells you that they know what it is, then they are lying to you. All we know is what has gone before, and what has been taught. Faith, as I understand it, is simply the hope that our understanding of the Universe is the right one.

Christians believe in one teacher, because his message is so compelling to us. I have met Buddhists with far deeper faith than my own, so I know that following the teachings of Gautama Buddha is another true path. However, when I speak to these Buddhists, I learn things that help me with my own Christianity.

Like Phoster said, we don't have to agree. I am on my path, and he is on his, and I pray that, God willing, I will see Phoster, and everyone else, in Heaven.

Keep faith.

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When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

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#76333 - 12/15/06 07:26 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
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as it is written in second Peter 3, the world is willingly ignorant that the world is of old and perished in the overflowing of the waters.

the mossarah refers to an advent called the Catabol. it predates Noah's flood. when God destroyed the earth it happened so quickly that mamoths can now be found with buttercups still in their mouth. that is how quickly they perished. the earth is titled on its axis for reason. it wasnt always so. whether God utilized a meteor or astroid, or however He did it, He knocked the earth for a loop.

i imagine the rebellion really ticked Him off. in that moment I am sure He was very tempted to destroy Satan and his third. i'll bet he wasnt too happy with the third that stood by and didnt take a side. God doenst change and it is written that he hates someone that is lukewarm. he would rather you be one or the other.

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#76334 - 12/15/06 09:21 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
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Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
this is crazy !believe what i say or else? god hates? and your better way is the only one possible ?you speak of free will but if i use frewill to say i dont think your right you wring your hands and say woe is he who wont listen! personally i think to turn your back on the possibility that there is a better way is naive and irresponsible,but it must be your better way!what if someone else has a better way ,even better than yours? you say i have a chioce but if i decide any way but your way you dismiss me as lost and damned ,you can say you dont but your words say you do! i quoted passages from documents that came before your bible yet you dismiss what i said without even considering what they say? if you think your gonna see anyone in this mystical place you call heaven then to me that is being naive to the point of blindness. im not the one whos falling for the scam here i feel sorry for you because sooner or later you will find out what i found out at 11 years old your god is gonna let you down and who will feel like a fool then ?

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its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76335 - 12/15/06 10:18 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Little is said of Satan, and his power over man.
You have a choice of following him or God.
We never challenge Satan, because we always believe it is God who is the almighty one.

Maybe he is, but only if mankind chooses the path of God, and not become marked by the beast.

Imagine a mythical world where kids never got hurt in any way, imagine if nobody drove recklessly to avoid killing them, and if we did not have nuclear which destroys kids immune systems.

Imagine if we did not have chemical soft drinks that stunt kids brains.
Imagine living in a world free of chemicals in yr body and eating wholesome foods.

Imagine a world without greed.
Without people thinking about only themselves.
Every time you smile and make someone else happy it is like a domino effect, and every good deed you do is productive in your life.

If you save an animal from despair, it is far better than being rich and wanting to hunt them for pleasure.

"Blessed are the meek as they will inherit the earth". Will that ever happen?
Only if good prevails over evil, and believe me I have seen evil, and its not a place for me to be part of.

There is much evil in the world today, and there are a lot of evil forces at play.
They have sold their souls for greed, lust and anger and will repent in front of God.

Caste down to Satan where they will become his slave for life eternal.
Never underestimate how many protect the Satanic ppl on earth, because they are part of it, until they die and live an eternal Hell,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#76336 - 12/15/06 11:31 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i cant read past the second line of your response,follow satan or follow god ,where is my choice in that statement? no matter how many different ways you say it its the same you either agree with me or your lost. no room for compromise or different ideas ,believe or else!! religon by threat? how is that any different from abuse?do as i say or you will pay, its domination either by an abuser or by a belief. i keep getting the same answer here its driving me nuts!!over 50 responses on this thread and not one new idea or answer? also it seems that if i understand the second line and the 50 other times ive heard it ,that if i dont believe then i am working for satan ,not my words ,yours ,either your with god or your with satan,how many times can you see that statement in the thread? but its not true. is the fact that i refuse to be satisfied with answers meant to make children believe, proof that i am working for satan? i know you dont mean that literaly but it is what your saying . i dont believe in satan any more than i believe in god after all its religon that created them both ,the>
_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76337 - 12/16/06 10:48 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
reality2k4 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
adam, I brought satan into the thread as the missing link, one of many, just a name.
Some men choose to follow satan and are bestial towards others.

Man chooses between those two paths on earth, a place he lives for only a short time.
I choose not to go down that path, that is my choice.

Religion is not so stark as it seems, I know that parable scared the shit out of me, but it shows just how harsh life can be, in war torn countries it is indeed happening on a daily basis.

It may take you many years to see your own spiritual self, others already see it, but you are not allowing yourself to witness the good side of yourself.

I hope that makes sense,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#76338 - 12/20/06 02:28 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Y'all,

If God knows all, then he/she/it knows what's in our hearts. Knows we seek the truth, relief from our pain. 'Where there is charity and love, you will find God.' (ubi caritas et amor, ibi deus est) Pretty simple. We can complicate a glass of water, so keep it simple.
Adam, just ask this unseen God to show you the way and see what happens.

froggy12

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#76339 - 12/20/06 03:53 AM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
nothing happens thats my point . what if there is no god?people dont wanna imagine that because then the blame goes right where it belongs ,on men who are either good or evil. is it right to blame everything on this guy we call god ,god can be used to excuse just about anything ,a child is killed a family is shattered ,but its gods will ,why?why should god get the blame? maybe man created god to take the blame? it just seems like this cant be as black and white as people say it is. and if a little child whos convinced hes about to die asks god to show him the way and nothing happens how do you explain that away? how many times ? how many times do i have to ask before its ok to give up? i think what happens is up to man and so far we have failed miserably. maybe all this religon is not something sent from god but just an owners manual for men ,you know what i think jesus was trying to do? show us that a regular guy can be good kind and have great power just by showing others how we should live ,now is that so far away from what yor church teaches? am i going to hell for beiieving men should be good like jesus was?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#76340 - 12/23/06 10:39 PM Re: Matthew 18 (the Millstone Parable)
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Adam, few men have managed to live by Gods will, but not all will go to Hell.
You certainly wont, unless you deliver evil to another.

If you read my post in father forgive them, it has a message written inside it, and that is, the flaming sword, is a place where God puts you in, a place of Satan.

If you cause evil, you must realise the evil you have done, and if you are good and just, you should be also recognized for it.

How could a perp put him/herself in a survivors life?
No! Only a survivor can see his life and no other unless the survivor wishes.

If a perp goes to Hell and finds himself trying to fight off his past, then he needs to know what the survivors life was like, and what it would have been like beyond abuse.

It is still part of the millstone parable, that nobody should put a millstone around the little ones neck, or pay a high price for it.

Then we get back to the Judge in Court, it was not a real judge, but God himself, finding them all guilty to wander aimlessly in life, for not being nurturing to kids, and harming those who need protecting.

A paradox.

They killed Jesus, as an innocent who told the truth that never must be written,

ste

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Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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