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#72712 - 08/24/04 10:23 PM Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
How do you guys react and respond to:

"Hate the sin, love the sinner"?


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#72713 - 08/24/04 10:34 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Kenn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by jimrh:
How do you guys react and respond to:

"Hate the sin, love the sinner"?
Hate the expression; don't respect the misguided point of view \:\)

_________________________
"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

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#72714 - 08/24/04 11:46 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Yves Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Canada
Quote:
The Lord says, "I will save the one who loves me.
I will keep him safe, because he trusts in me.
He will call out to me, and I will answer him.
I will be with him in times of trouble.
I will save him and honor him.
I will give him a long and full life.
I will save him.
Psalms 91:14:16
Quote:
Moses lifted up the snake in the desert. The Son of Man must be lifted up also. Then everyone who believes in him can live with God forever. God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world. He sent his Son to save the world through him. Anyone who believes in him is not judged. But anyone who does not believe is judged already. He has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:16-18
Quote:
We accept the witness of people. But the witness of God is more important because it is God who gives it. He has given witness about his Son. Those who believe in the Son of God have accepted that witness in their hearts. Those who do not believe God's witness are calling him a liar. That's because they ahve not believed his witness about his Son. Here is God's witness. He has given us eternal life. That life is found in his Son. Those who belong to the Son have life. Those who do not belong to the Son of God do not have life. I'm writing these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God. I'm doing it so you will know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:9-13
The beauty of it all is it is unconditional, and it is yours for the asking.... and it has nothing to do with man's judgements of you.

God loves you, Jim, and so do I. Look to Him for guidance and direction and the judgements of this world will fall away from the gavel.

~Yves

_________________________
You know you love someone when you want them to be happy even though their happiness means you're not part of it. ~Author Unknown~

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#72715 - 08/25/04 12:14 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL


_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#72716 - 08/25/04 12:23 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I think it depends on the true feelings that are behind the phrase when it is expressed that matters. I'm a sinner (yes, I lie, do bad things, etc.), and I hate my sin as well. This phrase has been turned into an unfortunate way for some people to feel good about themselves with gays. I have a lot of self-image problems, so I certainly can't sit in judgment of anyone.

_________________________
Eddie

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#72717 - 08/25/04 01:19 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Hey, Guys, it's David.

I hope that I haven't upset anyone by putting this here. I want to comment about this because of the explosive nature of this, pardon me, stupid saying. I've had a long running feud with this and if some of you are up late tonight, I'll be giving my "sermon" on this one.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#72718 - 08/25/04 01:26 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
why the %&*# was this moved??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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#72719 - 08/25/04 02:15 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
I wanna hear the sermon and this better be good and there better be a good reason for moving it away from the Gay Survivors Room!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited to remove a few of the "!" to reduce the width of the displayed post.


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#72720 - 08/25/04 02:28 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
David, my post was intended for GAY SURVIVORS.


Why the HELL did you move it to this stupid spirituality room@!Q@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@22


What power trip do you think you are on?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111


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#72721 - 08/25/04 06:42 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Jim,

I'm apologizing for moving this without your permission. I thought that it would fit better in the Spirituality area...not realizing, of course, that you were purposely wanting to get a response here.

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#72722 - 08/25/04 06:53 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Thanks David,

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject as well.

Thanks.

Jim


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#72723 - 08/25/04 10:03 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
David, perhaps what might be appropriate, if you feel this question would make a good discussion also in the spirituality room, is just copy it over rather than momve it.

My reasoning for posting the question here was to invite input from fellow gay survivors on how they handle this tough love statemenet from their friends, family, neighbours or male survivalists.

Thats all.

I'm sorry I flew off the handle when I saw this moved.

Jim ;\)


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#72724 - 08/25/04 03:08 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
What's sin?

That phrase is lifted straight out of the official straight bigot code book which, since it is in general distribution is widely used, often paraphrased, without attribution but to the same effect.

Ever since I have been self-deprogrammed out of that X-insanity cult, I have wondered at the great enthrallment with that hocus-pocus, superstition stuff.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72725 - 08/25/04 03:31 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
It makes me so god damned mad every time I hear the word SIN when it relates to something that goes on between to adults. A previous Prime Minister of ours, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, said that that state has no business in the bedroom of the nation. And for that matter neither does anyone else except the adults involved. Why is it that sin is the be all and end all of someone. There are real sins. Like Sexual and Physical and Verbal abuse, Like betraying someone's trust. Like taking advantage of someone for the perps pesonal use. Like Murder, Like Rape. I mean lets look around us. Real sin is everywhere.

There is absolutely nothing sinful about cosensual sex between adults. People just dont get it. These myths are perpetrated by hippocrits (damned if I know how to spell that). If there is a god I choose to thing of him, her it as an enveloping power of love for all. All you have to do is look at WW2 to see how the few can hurt the many.

Sex is a beautiful thing in all its forms between consensual adults. IT is a willingness to share that which truly belongs to you with another and vice versa.

OOOOOOHHHHHH Ime so pissed off at all the crap we ARE FED.

If you are straight enjoy it and if you are gay enjoy it and if you are somewhere in between enjoy it. I mean we are very sexual animals. I am damned sure that the love and sex shared between a man and a woman is no different from the same sex between a man and a man or a woman and an woman.

SORRY FOR THE RANT!!!!!!!!!

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72726 - 08/25/04 03:59 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Great rant, Mikey. Keep it up. If we don't, who will?

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72728 - 08/25/04 10:39 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Hello everyone,

I hope this does not sound smug, but, since the question was asked, the truth is, I neither respond nor react to this question. I've retired from the whole religion debacle, and determined that the topic of spirituality is much too dense and unfathomable for rhetorical unpacking by the likes of us mere humanalities.

Rather I stand back, drop-jawed, and observe how this subject has conditioned into stone the hearts, minds and spirits of many who share this cultural heritage, and how this conditioning insideously ventriloquizes and puppetizes (hahahah) even the purest of intentions.

..............I choose to surround / imbue my person with non-judgemental-ity at all portals, both incoming and outgoing. Life is so much simpler this way.

Kindly and gently,

Ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#72729 - 08/25/04 11:10 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
whendoIcry? Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 34
Loc: Metro Boston
There is no room for hatred in organized religion...this is a loaded expression that still presumes that sexual orientation is selected as a sinful lifestyle. The RC Church holds that they 'love homosexuals' but find what they do to be sinful. Get over yourselves...sex is normal, natural and appropriate. We have enough babies on this planet...if two people want to have sex...man to man, woman to woman, or man to woman...let them.

Jesus died FOR all of us and he did so to save us from sin...not to keep condemning us.

_________________________
I survive, one day at a time...knowing that I now can accept the things that cannot be changed, change the things I can and find the wisdom to know the difference.

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#72730 - 08/26/04 12:06 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
The phrase is condescending, judgemental and downright hateful.

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#72731 - 08/26/04 05:47 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Ivanhoe Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Yes, I agree.

What is that they say about the difference between the religious and the spiritual...the religious worry about going to hell...the spiritual don't because they've been there.

Judging not, loving one's neighbor, returing love for hate...God, what lessons. Will we ever learn?

Peace and Courage,

David

_________________________
"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

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#72732 - 08/31/04 12:01 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Apply this statement to clergy who abuse children and see what happens.

Hate the sin, hate the sinner is more like it.

If this statement were purely religious it would be one thing but it is also political, perhaps mostly political.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72733 - 09/08/04 11:19 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
cogito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 16
Loc: CA
Quote:
Originally posted by jimrh:
How do you guys react and respond to:

"Hate the sin, love the sinner"?
I hate this stupid sentiment. Like most things religious, I find it completely mindless. I'm Atheist with a capital A. One of the few accomplishments I'm proud of.

edit: Seems to have been a conversation stopper.


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#72734 - 09/24/04 07:38 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Seems to be but not. I've just been away for a while.

This phrase, these days, conjures up a great many related instances of bigotry.

For instance, why aren't a majority of citizens appalled by the suggestion that the Constitution should be undermined with a rights-denying amendment?

How can they not see that it won't stop then? Where a crack is made, a hole soon developes and pretty soon the whole thing is in shreds. First, they shred the Bible and now they are after the Consitution.

My forebears came here before the Revolution to escape religious persecution in Europe.

The proposed amendment is exactly that, I think (religious persecution). It is essentially an adjunct to the hate-sin-love-sinner phrase. As such, it would confuse the Consitution and open it up for all sorts of undermining, fascist additions.

Why not establish Christianity as the official state religion then? Isn't their committment to that evidenced by their claim that the framers of the Constitution and our "founding fathers" were believers in G-d which isn't I think universally true and is certainly not true in terms of belief in a Christian G-d.

Confusion is their tactic. This is what happens when there is an uneducated or poorly educated electorate. The Consitition is based on the maintenance of an educated electorate more than on G-d's will, despite what they say or how they distort what was originally said and written.

Accepting rigid judgements is far easier than learning to comprehend what freedom and human rights are really all about.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72735 - 09/25/04 05:52 AM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
cogito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 16
Loc: CA
Quote:
Confusion is their tactic. This is what happens when there is an uneducated or poorly educated electorate.
Not the least confusing is the metaphysical commitment behind the phrase. How can you hate the sin and love the sinner, since the sin only "exists" as an human action. And they don't hate the idea of sin, in fact they're quite attached to it. So they must propose a Platonic, abstract Sin, sin as it exists in itself independent of the world; for in the world, sin is always a human action, even if that action is just a thought. It is this metaphysical stand point that I take as an abdication of the responsibility involved in personal ethics.
Myself, I don't believe in the concept of sin.
Plato asked whether something was good because it was loved by the gods, or was it loved by the gods because it was good? There is no good in itself, independent of good things, actions, etc.
The same mistake is made with the idea of sin. Qualities are intrinsic to their physical matrix.


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#72736 - 09/25/04 04:44 PM Re: Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner
slumberjack Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 4
Hey peeps... I finally got around to checking out male rape survivor communities. So anyway having been roofied by a guy years ago...I took the "Hate the sin, love the sinner" as a rape related statement and not a perspective on homosexuality itself.

Yeah...so for me my reaction was that its not a bad perspective to me in the context of my experience. I have long had homosexual tendencies in me but rather than exploring them, I got raped.

So I hid these tendencies away as they were so non-consensual. Lately I have been coming out of this ancient depression, of which this was only one trauma, and before I get too ancient and less hot - which thankfully I am still a 35 yr old hotty, plan to party a little bit in the homo way. However I am way way too picky and super sensitive about how nice this guy is gonna have to be. So I have been going back into my subconscious dumping grounds and it clearly leads to this rape.

Point being, whatever kind of place holder I have in my head for this guy who drugged me, if I can let him go and stop seeing him in relation to every other horny guy that may really work for me. So hate that he was an asshole that was too weak to try seduce me on fair grounds, but love (or forgive) the weak human being that he was and move on. Its a path out of solipsism.


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