Newest Members
RodrigoBR, MJ545, Marant, BeingFound, journey4two
12332 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
blueelectron9 (48), Grunty1967b (2014), highflight (42), jocks44 (54), kitm1 (47), Porrick (44)
Who's Online
0 registered (), 25 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12332 Members
74 Forums
63413 Topics
443357 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#72181 - 01/14/04 01:05 PM re-abused?
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Do the almost daily anti-gay things we see reported in the media or even the bigoted comments from people we encounter in our daily activities, re-abuse us?

Do these things (everything from epithets to political positions) work against our recovery?

How do we deal with them?

I know some gay guys seem (even claim) to be unaffected by them. I, for one, feel them as personal attacks.

What do you think/feel?

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

Top
#72182 - 01/14/04 02:44 PM Re: re-abused?
abcd Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
I agree, and lots of times it puts us in the defensive. However, I guess we can look on the bright side...these are the growing pains of a society FINALLY coming to grips with it. It's still better now than it was before (in terms of rights), and it WILL get better (so long as we keep living our lives).


Top
#72183 - 01/14/04 04:00 PM Re: re-abused?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Brayton no matter what anyone says just be the best you can and if they cannot handle it it is their problem. Society can be cruel. Look how long it is taking them to acknowledge sexual abuse of men. Just be prooud of who you are and that is enough. ;\)

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#72184 - 01/15/04 12:07 PM Re: re-abused?
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Is it safe to be proud? Isn't this still something that has to be largely covert? And, if it is, is it really pride? (Certainly not in the same terms that straight people feel pride in their sexuality.)

While society catches up, aren't we being re-traumatized by its bias? What concrete steps do we take to deal with that?

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

Top
#72185 - 01/15/04 05:27 PM Re: re-abused?
Dale English Offline
Newsletter Founder/Producer
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 448
Loc: PA
Hey Brayton,

You ask some really good questions! Is it safe to be proud? Proud for being a gay man? Well, inherently no. Before coming out, in my hetero days, I never thought about pride in my sexuality. Straight people generally feel pride in what they do, their accomplishments, not in who they are, They don't have to. Acceptance is the norm. Unless you're a straight person of color and then wanting/needing to show pride in one's color or national origin is even more important. When I first came out at work, to people I thought would be accepting and affirming, I was very apprehensive. Does that experience re-traumatize? Well, it re-challenges
but I have the power of my adult self to handle this challenge. As a child being molested, I had no power.

Is this still pride, you ask, if I have to be proud covertly? Well, I guess at first I'm "out & proud" selectively and then I beam in all the natural wonder that I am as an individual human being who just happens express his sexuality with people of his own gender. The straight people I've done this with have learned from my example not to judge and to get to know sexual minorities as human beings.

So I guess being out to as many straight people as I can safely and to have a support network of gay men and women who are proud of who and what they are because they are intrinsically good people who anyone would want as friends would be a big step in diminishing the effects of the hatred and ignorance of people who "hate" us for how we "love"!

You're a good man Brayton. Keep thinking out loud!!

Taz


Top
#72186 - 01/16/04 10:26 AM Re: re-abused?
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
These things do hurt me as a person because I am still coming to terms with all of this. It isn't an easy thing to deal with for myself and quite frankly, it makes me angry when I hear people shout their ignorance. I have actually started to search out activites, people who are also gay just so I don't feel all alone out there.

I am selective though who I share things with to some degree. For a long time I always referred to the "roomate" thing but now I just say Jeff and leave it at that. If someone wants to know, they can ask but I am trying to get myself to treat my relationship just as anyone else in the world would do.

But it is difficult and some days I wonder why these straight people are so worried. It is not like we can go turn people into gay people...

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#72187 - 01/16/04 11:03 AM Re: re-abused?
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Don I would like to add that virtually all gay men I have met could teach a lot of the virtues of being tolerant, kind, generous and caring to so called straight men.

I have always felt that someone who is so vehementally anti gay has something to hide about himself. Maybe they are confused about their own sexuality or their fantasies.

My friends who are gay are my friends because I can relate to them, enjoy their company and trust in their judgement. It has nothing to do with their sexual orientation.

I hope this helps are my gay brothers here.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

Top
#72188 - 01/16/04 11:27 AM Re: re-abused?
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Is being out and proud a political stance then, something we do to compensate for the discrimination we are aware of?

It is interesting that it seems like the support network that Taz describes is the sort of thing that Don has begun to create for himself.

I agree that that can make a huge difference.

It is hard for me to think about why that never quite happened for me. Things like shyness and shame had a lot to do with. What prevents me now? I am aware that I am kind of wary of gay men. Is that a result of the csa (even though I don't know whether or not they were gay)?

I want to admit that I have some feelings of anger, resentment maybe, certainly envy when I hear things like what you wrote Taz. Do any of you respond to really good de>
_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

Top
#72189 - 01/16/04 09:56 PM Re: re-abused?
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Mikey,
I think that is one thing that I notice about myself is that I don't necessarily have to hide behind what society expects me to be. I can be myself and that is a much more freeing experience - compared to trying to live as a straight person in a straight world.


Brayton,
It is so difficult for me to have any answers on how I deal with this. It is unchartered water and I am hoping that getting to know others like myself, I will begin to accept my being gay in a much more personal way. It is much easier for me to be anonymous and gay than to let people I deal with on a daily basis know that I am gay.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#72190 - 01/21/04 09:37 AM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
for the first time in a while i went into a
more straight than gay restaurant - in fact i think it was all straight except for me -

it was pretty unnerving -
definitely felt like i was in danger with that crowd -

but for the most part - i agree with all of the above - i try not to cave to pressures from the
weird perhaps ill people who have to
be agressive towards gays - a threat to their sexual self esteem?
*who knows - don't care - leave me alone*
- just
let me date my guy:-)
ps- there are some wonderful book reviews on
lambdalit.org
it's a really good literary foundation devoted to
writers, readers glliterature-
all kinds of lit.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72191 - 01/21/04 09:39 AM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
ps - the website was offered as one boost to the pride issue - these guys and gals are super talented - brilliant - and offer great info on our history and editorialize as well-
mgb

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72192 - 01/21/04 11:42 AM Re: re-abused?
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Bush's statement about marriage last night is an example of what I meant. It is part of the barrage of negativity we receive concerning our sexuality, our intimate relationships and even the value of our personhood as gay people.

I am not particularly interested in "gay marriage." What bothers me is the absence of any pledge to guarantee equal rights for gay people in committed relationships.

And what about a constitutional amendment supposedly to protect straight marriage? What is that if not a direct attack on gay people and a move to re-write the constitution to exclude a class of people from its guarantees?

This is what I meant by re-abuse.

How does this undermine our recovery from abuse when we hear this sort of abusive attack almost every day?

Look at what MGB experienced in a resturant. It felt like an unsafe place simply because it felt like he was the only gay person there. Who among us has not experienced that?

Hate to be negative but I see it as the truth. While we sometimes, perhaps often, have positive interactions with individual straight people, the culture/society as a whole continues to devalue us as human beings. Isn't this essentially what our abusers did?

Isn't our trust in being treated decently being betrayed again and again?

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

Top
#72193 - 01/21/04 05:00 PM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
i concur - perhaps we need to start to make institutions of our own regardless of whether they are sanctioned by the state as "legal."

perhaps this culture only responds to economic stimulae (ie the competition for the "gay" consumer."

if one (i had an idea) were to make a "commitment ceremony bridal/groom shop" - this economic base -would make us visually more apparent - let's face it the design would be immaculate - and how much you wanna bet straight couples would come in to shop -
just a thought - the more we are seen - the more people will have no choice but to respect us everywhere-

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72194 - 01/21/04 05:03 PM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
i know you do not really go for marriage or the term marriage Brayton -
the idea i present offers a way for that choice
to be had publicly and respectfully -

a start ...

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72195 - 01/21/04 05:05 PM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
maybe...

i get angry at this topic -
apologies

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72196 - 01/21/04 08:23 PM Re: re-abused?
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Bush's comments really were disturbing to me. I'm not necessarily interested in gay marriage but I don't want people officially telling me I am a disease to society. I wish that we would be able to get some of the same benefits as married people do in society, but right now a certain sect in our country are hell bent are keeping gays swept under the rug.

It is so sad that our society and many churches teach hate, while proclaiming love and acceptance.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#72197 - 01/21/04 09:05 PM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
yeah - i have had a nun and a priest tell me i was
doomed to hell and i needed to confess before they even spoke to me - the first time we spoke in private - not a very "caring" or "loving" thing to say -

i agree MrDon - total hipocrats (sp?)

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72198 - 01/22/04 02:07 AM Re: re-abused?
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
Everything we do is based on agreements we have made—agreements with ourselves, with other people, with God, with life. But the most important agreements are the ones we make with ourselves. In these agreements we tell ourselves who we are, how to behave, what is possible, what is impossible. One single agreement is not such a problem, but we have many agreements that come from fear, deplete our energy, and diminish our self-worth.”


“ In these agreements we tell ourselves who we are, how to behave, what is possible, what is impossible. ”
1. Be Impeccable With Your Word
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.


2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.


3. Don’t Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

Top
#72199 - 01/22/04 01:14 PM Re: re-abused?
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
I like those guiding principles, Orodo.

Here's a question for everyone.

Are we immune from an action if that action is a constitutional amendment? Laws and constitutional amendments are things that affect our lives everyday, aren't they? How can we be immune from them?

I think there is a great deal that we can change in reference to our perception of what people are thinking or saying about us. I think it is possible to develop immunity from that sort of thing to a great extent. I don't think that such things constitute "re-abuse."

When a constitutional amendment is proposed and supported in a President's State of the Union speech, I think that those who want such a thing must contitute a group of significant size.

Is it possible anymore to dismiss them as a sort of fringe group?

I have always felt that a majority of people are anti-gay when it gets right down to it. They may be friendly, nice, that sort of thing, they may even be supportive and accepting on a personal, one-on-one basis, but when it comes to broad principles of acceptance and guarantees of basic rights, I think that most of them are anti-gay.

That, from my point of view, is the source, the fountainhead of re-abuse.

If our original abusers saw us as individual human beings worthy of respect and possessing certain basic rights, I don't think the abuse would've occurred.

I think that if people today saw us as a group of individuals worthy of respect and possessing certain basic rights, a constitutional amendment would not only never been proposed but wouldn't have even come forward in any serious way to begin with.

This is, I think, a betrayal of the trust that as human beings we should be able assume. Am I wrong?

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

Top
#72200 - 01/23/04 05:37 PM Re: re-abused?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
For me Orodo's agreements post are pretty powerful -
Especially the 'best I can do part at that time' - Wanting to make things 'right' is what i often have been wanting to do -
or do to 'perfection'
can be almost possible in art -
but not in relationships -
As much as I have tried to avoid dissapointments, it can be pretty crazy making. -
these are helpful philosophies
that help me accept myself and deal with
impulses and ultimately help me
heal and live day to day
- they are working so far

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#72201 - 01/23/04 06:11 PM Re: re-abused?
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
In my humble opinion:

'Marriage' is a religious institution to be governed by whatever particular religious groups wants to do.

For equal treatment under the law there should be some sort of domestic partnership recognition. The government recognizes 'marriage' and grants certain benefits to those who 'marry'. By denying the right to 'marry' to same sex couples they are denying rights and privileges granted to others. This is discriminatory and is illegal. This is what the judges in MA said.

That's my opinion, I think it's fair.

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

Top
#355367 - 03/02/11 03:11 PM Re: re-abused? [Re: Brayton]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Brayton
I like those guiding principles, Orodo.

Here's a question for everyone.

Are we immune from an action if that action is a constitutional amendment? Laws and constitutional amendments are things that affect our lives everyday, aren't they? How can we be immune from them?

I think there is a great deal that we can change in reference to our perception of what people are thinking or saying about us. I think it is possible to develop immunity from that sort of thing to a great extent. I don't think that such things constitute "re-abuse."

When a constitutional amendment is proposed and supported in a President's State of the Union speech, I think that those who want such a thing must contitute a group of significant size.

Is it possible anymore to dismiss them as a sort of fringe group?

I have always felt that a majority of people are anti-gay when it gets right down to it. They may be friendly, nice, that sort of thing, they may even be supportive and accepting on a personal, one-on-one basis, but when it comes to broad principles of acceptance and guarantees of basic rights, I think that most of them are anti-gay.

That, from my point of view, is the source, the fountainhead of re-abuse.

If our original abusers saw us as individual human beings worthy of respect and possessing certain basic rights, I don't think the abuse would've occurred.

I think that if people today saw us as a group of individuals worthy of respect and possessing certain basic rights, a constitutional amendment would not only never been proposed but wouldn't have even come forward in any serious way to begin with.

This is, I think, a betrayal of the trust that as human beings we should be able assume. Am I wrong?


I liked this thread, and as I reread this years later thought there were some good points.

Michael joseph

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

Top
#356405 - 03/13/11 01:02 PM Re: re-abused? [Re: michael Joseph]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.