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#72147 - 12/31/03 11:25 AM peeved
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Don't know if any gay guys are checking these threads this morning but here goes.

I usually find good support in the general forum but today am feeling put off by all the references to wives and girlfriends I guess.

Sure, I understand, the vast majority of guys are straight so talking about relationships with women is to be expected.

On the other hand, this has been a prominent factor in my feelings of isolation all my life. The CSA and other forms of abuse early on resulted in feelings of isolation but so much of everything being so straight-oriented all my life has magnified it.

I miss specifically gay-centric support, etc. And, for anyone who doesn't think so, it is different and substantially so. A person dealing with CSA under a heavy weight of hate and prejudice is re-traumatized each day. What the perps didn't get done to begin with, society and culture will finish off.

I'm venting I guess.

I am really down today, feeling ugly in mind, body and spirit.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72148 - 12/31/03 11:56 AM Re: peeved
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Brayton

Quote:
I'm venting I guess.

I am really down today, feeling ugly in mind, body and spirit.
It is ok to Vent and your feelings are real.

I, frankly, know that I love my wife and that is what is important to me. All of my SA was with males and I became a male prostitute serving kinky males. Over the years I acted out with men over and over again. What am I. Haven't got a clue. I think that it is especially difficult for a gay man to develop relationships with males if their perps were male. It would be the same for a straight male if his perps were women.

It is the feelings that are important. The shame, guilt, fear of relationships etc. The fact is the shame and guilt are not ours. I had to learn that and I learned to respect myself and be able to live with my warts. I found that before anyone else can like and respect me I had to feel that way inside. Now the anger bit. I am muderously angry at my perps; and with good reason.

Brayton, my brother, I hope that you have a really great new years celebration and that 2004 will b e great one for you.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72149 - 12/31/03 12:51 PM Re: peeved
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Thanks Mike.

I'm in a really pissy mood.

The respect-yourself-and-other-people-will-like-you thing makes sense I guess.

(That's not what you wrote, is it? Just how I hear it. My "hearing" is pretty distorted sometimes. Not always helpful to be aware of these things.)

The respect-yourself thing is illusive for me.

Not angry at perps today. Seems all turned in and feels pretty violent. Would talk to my T. but unavailable over the holidays (of all times!)

Interesting to me that when I post under Gay Survivors, the one I can count on for an answer is a straight guy!

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72150 - 12/31/03 01:20 PM Re: peeved
Dale English Offline
Newsletter Founder/Producer
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 448
Loc: PA
Hey Brayton,

I heard you differently. It really wasn't the "pissiness" that I heard, it was.........

"I miss specifically gay-centric support, etc. And, for anyone who doesn't think so, it is different and substantially so. A person dealing with CSA under a heavy weight of hate and prejudice is re-traumatized each day. What the perps didn't get done to begin with, society and culture will finish off."

I can just begin to appreciate how any African American person felt growing up in this country when everyone they looked at on tv or in media adds were all white. The discrimination is very subtle and often unnoticed to white people but not so to blacks. As gay people, who have to fight for the basic right just to be seen as we are, to have someone appreciate the struggle, to hear what we're really saying, we need to use this site to grow out of abuse and into the beautiful gay souls that we are.

So I would ask you to say more about what you wrote in your post. It's time to have a real, meaningful, lenghthy thread on this board too.
I'm gay. I'm listening. I'm in!

Taz


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#72151 - 12/31/03 01:48 PM Re: peeved
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Taz,

First of all, there's the question of did they abuse me because I am gay? Everybody always says "No", that its not your fault, that it has nothing to do with orientation but, given a life in an environment that practically promotes abuse of gay men and boys, I don't think I can automatically eliminate a cause and effect relationship.

Did they do it because they hated me? (And hated me because I was queer, and etc.) Did they humiliate me because it was okay to hurt a queer kid?

This is all mixed up for me with daily experiences with hate and prejudice. I guess I am super-sensitized to this stuff but that doesn't make it less real. Am I supposed to lighten up about this? How?

All my life I've gotten from one day to the next through stubborness. I just refuse to believe that this is all there is. But it is extremely draining and discouraging.

I must be just plain stupid because in spite of all sorts of support and guidance and assuming personal responsibilty, I am still in the same lonely place I always was.

Despite being "surrounded" by partner, adopted "family," "friends," and other "caring and supportive" people, I feel as absolutely isolated as I did from the first time my mother hit and screamed at me.

I am so pissed that this is all I get.

I hate the self-loathing but I have to be honest and say that all the gay men I have gotten to know a little bit (god forbid a lot) have repulsed me. It always seems, and if you say this isn't true I cannot possible argue with you, but they've always seemed sex-obsessed. I don't mean specifically in reference to me but just in general. Where's a meaningful relationship even friendliness, comraderie in that?

My mind is flooded with lots of stuff. Feel backed into a corner.

Brett

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72152 - 12/31/03 03:46 PM Re: peeved
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Brett,

I'm not sure what I am. I was married for over 33 years. I had sex with men. I was told that because I ejaculated, I liked it and must be 'queer'. I thought that there was something about me that attracted my abuser to me, some invisible tattoo on my forehead that said 'Defective' that everyone else but me could see. I've always felt out of place no matter where I was.

I'm on my own now, alone and really don't know where I fit into society. I have so much empathy for anyone who is 'different'. I've felt like an outsider for all of my life. Most of the gay men that I know are survivors too. Some of them are obsessed with sex but most of them are just hyper-vigilant. Hyper-vigilence is one of the traits of survivors and I know that I still get that way every now and again. I read negative meaning into the most innocent of occurances and tend to avoid a lot of close relationships with other guys. The fear on my part is that I'll be taken advantage of or that maybe the relationship will turn sexual. I know that it's irrational but it's still there. I'm getting on with my life but I'm no longer letting the abuse dominate my life. It happened, I can't change the past, I can only live in the present, the future is yet to come.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#72153 - 12/31/03 07:01 PM Re: peeved
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Brayton,
Not sure if I have any good words right now.. feel like I'm all out of them lately,

just wanted you to know, I'm hear and vent a way!

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#72154 - 12/31/03 08:19 PM Re: peeved
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Hi Brett, Steve, Taz,Don and anyone whose name I can't remember in this thread. Somedays I am hapy to remember anything.

This is a straight guy answering you all. I have to tell you that some gay men here have mentioned to mods that they do not post here because the gay men don't respond well. Maybe this thread can geet something going along that line. It seems to me it woould be good to have this forum be a place where gay men could discuss whatever, knowing that most of the straight men on MS don't come here to snoop. I come here because it is my job. But I also check to make sure that no homophobe goes postal here. I do feel uncomfortable about some posts. I try to only reply if someone seems so down that I need to tell them that they are great guys--yup, I caught it as I worte it--that is MY need, not yours.

As a straight man and a moderator, I nearly gag so many times when anyone refers to something like;"oh my God, am I gay?" I would imagine that hurts a lot. I wish we could not do that, but lots of men do have homophobia that may be related to the kind of abuse they endured.

This may sound goofy, but I believe in love and I believe that love is a mystery, a beautiful mystery. Why a person loves another person in a romantic way, I don't know. Over the years I have seen college kids fall in love with what I felt was a very unlikely person, e.g. a truly gorgeous girl who is wildly in love with a really below average Joe--in my opinion--which means nothing, because love is not primarily about looks.

When a man loves a man I think it is just as beautiful and mysterious as any hetrosexual relationship. You men know that I am still a virgin. Wish I weren't frankly--now I am to old to change that even if I got the chance!

Real love is awesome, and it does awesome things to people. Usually I know when a kid is in love because he becomes more mellow, and thoughtful, and less rambunctious. The only thing that changes is that the kid fell in love.

I apologize if I have ever said anything that has harmed any gay man--or any one for that matter. My Church is, it seems to me, not in touch with the pastoral approach of Jesus, to everyone. Kids are still taught that is it always a mortal sin to masturbate--although the latest teaching on that has lightened up a bit. And the few officials who feel it is their duty to speak for all Cathoics say harsh and ungodly statements about gay people acting on their feelings of love. I apologize for that, and would suggest you not read about or pay any attention to those "Statements" just as almost no one today pays any attention to official statements about birth control. Celibate, homophobic men have a hell of a time trying to talk about sexuality with any credence what-so-ever. I always feel the louder one screams against homosexuality, the more I am ceertain that they are gay.

Brett, my understanding of pedophilia and ephebophila is that it is the age that sets these guys on fire, not whether a kid is gay or straight. Most little kids wouldn't have a clue as to which sex they are most attracted to.

I do hear gay men here ask that question a lot though. Age, not anything else, seems to be what sets the compulsive activity in motion according to the pros.

I do say this though, about sexual orientation: beautiful women spark something in this old man that is rather deep and powerful. But I also admit that I loved the man who I had sex with at age 12 to 15. I enjoyed giving him oral sex and felt that it made me a special friend to him. What I did not like and what I feared was the violence with which he beat me up and fucked me. Eventually the later was not painful, and I know full well that among people who love each other, anal inntercourse can be a wondereful experience for both partners whether they are a gay couple or a straight couple.

Now, I hope I have not wasted your time. But I do need to say that I can see that gay sex is just as wonderful as straight sex. I wish it could be possible here at MS to speak openly about our fears and worries, but that we could get over talking about gayness as though it is worse than cancer. That hurts me a lot--I can't imagine how much it must hurt loving gay men.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#72155 - 12/31/03 11:01 PM Re: peeved
unknownsoldier Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
Someone told me something once about gay kids being more vulnerable to abuse because they are not getting the support they need to deal with their emerging identity from their families or school. So they end up sort of looking for some kind of clue from anyone, and the predators sense this. So its not the gayness per se that leads to abuse, but the general homophobia in our culture that prevents us from supporting gay youth.

Does that make sense? It seemed to when he said it, I might not have explained it right.

Brett,
I know what you mean about the homophobia adding an extra layer of trauma on us. Since the abuse pretty much shatters our stability and self confidence to begin with, I think we have a harder time with the comments or slurs. I felt like everything I must have inside is weird and wrong, so I was definitely not able to be lkay with who I was attracted to. I just tried to toe the line for what I thought was 'normal,' even though it clearly wasn't working at all.

That inner isolation is tough, when you feel alone even though there are people there. I don't really have the solution, I'm still working on the basics, like getting some friends and tring to have those relationships be stable. I know I have a hard time believing that people really care. I don't believe their words at all, but once in a while someone goes out of their way to do something that I can see is caring, and I beleive it for a little while. You do deserve to be loved and to actually feel the love.

Bob,
thanks for all the affirmation. Its good to remember that I shouldn't stereotype the straight guys. And you pretty much smash a lot of the suspicion I have for them. thanks.

Also, I've never seen the word 'ephebophilia' before. ???

Taz,
well said.

Brett take care. in the midst of your self loathing, try to remember that the brothers here respect you and care for you as the person that you are.

Jim


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#72156 - 12/31/03 11:54 PM Re: peeved
Dale English Offline
Newsletter Founder/Producer
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/08/03
Posts: 448
Loc: PA
Hi Brett & everyone contributing to this thread,

You may not realize it but you've all given me such a gift in these final moments of 2003. Finally, a thread that I feel a part of.

Brett, you began it all by speaking your, and my, frustration. It's not just about somebody of our own gender assaulting, objectifying and using us for their own selfish pleasure. It's the continued assault/raping of our souls from people of power, otherwise known as the majority who find us to be evil, immoral, unworthy of equal protection under the law because we love people of our own gender. We are the recipients of what has been called the last socially acceptable bigotry. Brett, the abuse was never "about" you. It's about sick people who take and use without any care or concern for the one assaulted. God how I wish at moments like this that we could just sit together and let one another know with our faces and tears just how wonderful we are and always were. I would give anything to be able to create enough safety for you to be able to reach out and connect with supportive people despite the fear and your need to protect yourself with distance.

And Bob, I want to thank you deeply for your sensitivity. You have a good heart and I value and trust that.

And Jim, you hit the nail right on the head for me too when you said to Brett..."that inner isolation is tough, when you feel alone even though there are people there. I don't really have the solution, I'm still working on the basics, like getting some friends and tring to have those relationships be stable. I know I have a hard time believing that people really care. I don't believe their words at all, but once in a while someone goes out of their way to do something that I can see is caring, and I beleive it for a little while. You do deserve to be loved and to actually feel the love". Your experience touches my heart and for that I thank you.

Let me leave you all with 70 minutes left in 2003 with something said by the African American poet Maya Angelou: "I do not trust people who do not love themselves and yet tell me, "I love you". There is an African saying which is: Be careful when a naked person offers you a shirt!"

Be well guys and let's keep this alive.

Taz


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