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#72015 - 11/02/03 07:29 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
What an incredible thread by a truly remarkable group of brothers. You guys should step back and all give yourselves a great big hug. The strength and compassion here is truly incredible.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72016 - 11/05/03 03:36 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Justin,

This is a wonderful thread. I was busy elsewhere and almost missed it.

It is nice to hear men talk about affection. I haven't found that either though I've been in a relationship for 18 years.

I think part of the yearning for affection for me is partly the desire to be enfolded in a safe place (and to hold another guy in that safe place, too.)

I have always felt cut off from others, different but not just different, more like separate. I desire the affection but fear the intimacy I suppose. And, even if my concious self does not seem to fear the intimacy, my subconcious self has control of my body and refuses to provide that which it craves most.

It is true that the practice of compassion is healing. It feeds my soul. But it, too, seems a separate thing, only going so far, never touching my heart deeply.

Talking, writing about these things takes me to my saddest place but reading what all of you have written encourages me.

Brett

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72017 - 11/05/03 07:11 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Reading all of our posts becomes more and more enlightening and amazing to me every day. The incredible similarities with how we've reacted to the abuse, how it affects our lives, our relationships, is revelation to me. I've read books on the subject, but nothing prepared me for the honest and brave discussion I find here.

I'm sure that for many of you, you've been aware of all this for awhile. I seem to be one of the youngest posters here. Small wonder. I do believe that most kids my age who have endured what I have unfortuanately wind up in bad situations. I'm talking about jails, psych wards or worse. I've been in three foster homes, group homes, assesment centers, hospitals, jail cells, etc. You know- the system. And even now, a year in the clear after a brief stint in jail, I'm pissed off as hell at the system. This is why.

It didn't help me. It hurt me. I know this because my feelings made it clear every day. I was abused in a foster home that I was sent to for the purpose of protection from other abuse! The hospitals did nothing but isolate me further. So I want to know- does anyone here have experience as a ward of the state? Or been involved in some capacity with the system?

My best friend was incarcerated as a juvenile and subject to actual torture at the hands of the gaurds.

So how do I deal with all the rage?

The reason I've went in this direction is because I wish to make an observation about how it relates to my need for affection and my struggles with intimacy. Because all of this compounds the abuse, my need for love was tempered by my fear of it! Because those in the guise of helping authority often abused me themselves!

All these betrayals ultimately make us so needy for love and so fearful of trust that we freeze between reaching out on one hand and accepting what love is offered on the other! It's the saddest place to be. The very worst.

But I have started thinking that since we all feel so similarly and since we understand each other better then anyone else, we should all take steps to trust and feel safe and accept what love we offer each other as being genuine. I think many of you already are able to do this because you've worked at it for so long. Me, I'm new to it. But after saying all of this I want to say also that I'm am deeply thankful to you all for making reaching out a possibility. Jeff, I know how hard it is. But reaching out to me will never end in a disspointment. Cause I'll reach right back to you.

Your friend
Justin


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#72018 - 11/05/03 07:41 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Another thing I was thinking. Being gay in a situation like this, and I'm pretty sure I am, it makes me fearful that I'll be rejected cause someone will be disgusted with it. I have a partner who I've been with for a year who was also abused. We struggle with being uncomfortable about sex sometimes. Does it remind me of the abuse? Sometimes I think so. Is this normal? How do you develop a healthy, sex positive attitude then? I try and he tries but I still sense distance during it. I've read about becoming numb during sex. I hate it. It's a bad feeling and I just want to get rid of it. Has anyone here been successful at getting rid of it? I don't want to make anyone here uncomfortable by talking about this. But it's something I really do worry about. I feel awkward talking about this, but I'm trying to be bold and say what I've wanted to for so long. If I don't reach out- if I freeze- I know I'll never change. Sometimes I wonder if I've confused affection with sex. Is that why I have gay feelings? Because I want a man to hold me. The whole issue confuses me greatly. I guess I'm just looking for other people's thoughts. Maybe some of you have been here before and know about it. I hope that this doesn't alienate anyone, cause that's not my intention. I've come to be comfortable with being held (finally), but beyond that it's a gray area. I just wanted to know if anyone else goes through this.

On another note. The friend I referred to in the last post, the one who was physically abused badly, his behaivior is pretty similar to ours in many ways. But the urge for affection from a male is not present. So I have this urge simply because of sexual abuse. Great. It's nice to know that such a large part of my personality is dictated by early abuse. Is this the real me that feels this way then? Who is the "real" me? Is there one? I will likely never know. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, because this is who I am today, for better or worse. So I might as well accept that, right? And then try to work with what I've got. I'm sorry if this all sounds so basic or whatever, but I really am learning just how little I knew about all this. Christ. It makes me feel somewhat stupid. Like I should have seen it all before. Like I've been blind to everything in my life. It's a weird feeling to realize I'm 20 and just discovering who I am. Common feeling for many of us I suspect. I just wish someone had helped me through it all before. I can't believe how goddamn unfair life has been to so many. It really enrages me. I feel so cold sometimes toward life. I hope this feeling passes soon. It's not very pleseant. Thanks for listening to my rant, guys. I know I can try people's patience sometimes heh.
-justin


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#72019 - 11/07/03 04:03 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Great post, Jeff. You honeslty impress me. And though I am your friend, I wouldn't say that just to be nice. I don't bullshit. I say it because I mean it. You made so many good points. Sometimes when I read what you say I'm in awe because I wish I'd been able to say it like you did. You have a knack, my friend, for putting on paper (or dot matrix) what I feel. The final stages of recovery I have seen glimpses of. I'm confident that with people like you in the world those glimpses will become an everyday reality. We need more people like you! I'm so goddam HONORED to hear the things you say and to be considered a friend to someone so cool. Thanks, Jeff, for your enthusiasm, your thoughts, everything.

Your friend, Justin


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#72020 - 11/07/03 06:43 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I am sick of this too Justin. I am not of this country, I moved here when I was 18 years age, and even with good, very good friends here, i still feel alone sometime here, not belonging or wanted, even knowing that is stupid of me. I feel bad to be selfish as that, it is me proving him right, I am bad, I am selfish, i am wrong. My father, he tell me he make man of me, what he do is to make me man, to hurt me and I can not say it hurt, must say at him that what he do is nothing, it feel good. He would do bad things and I can not cry, men do not cry, not when he is burn me or hit me or make me bleeding, can not cry or react at him of it, he would make it worse, or he would hurt at mom or gran instead and have me watch him do that, scare me more, and never can I say nothing bad of it. Then when he leave, mom make me be her 'little man of house' and I can not let her down, need be strong for her. When can we be the children we suposed to been then, and not have to be this stupid shit thing called 'be a man'? \:\(

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#72021 - 11/07/03 07:52 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Leosha-

The whole "be a man" thing is overdone here in the U.S. We are taught to "be a man" before we even ARE men!

Possible trigger*

I remember once when I was around 8 I was boiling a giant pot of water to make noodles. I fell backwards when I took it off the stove to drain it, and all the boiling water went on me. My dad came home shortly after and saw the mess from the water and decided that although I was burnt red already, I should be punished for spilling it and making the mess. What followed was a beating.

When growing up, I often made plots to kill him. I was shamed by him constantly. I felt like I was the worst person on earth. I was gay as well, and was terrified of him finding out. Trying to be a man in this situation was not really very easy.

But I am out of there. I have started over. I will focus on my present and future. The past may affect me, but I refuse to let it control me.


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#72022 - 11/07/03 08:32 AM Re: Going nucking futs
StrangerInAStrangeLand Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Puyallup, WA
You're not the youngest one here, man. I'm 17. I've been abused, raped, and ignored. I know. The system never helped me either. The first thing I did when I was raped was tell the police. After all, that's what they tell you in school, right? They're there to help. Actually, they would rather pretend you didn't exist. Only girls get raped. I got a call from the Pierce County prosecuter's office almost a full year afterwards telling me that they wouldn't prosecute the case because no-one would beleive that I wasn't a prostitute. They wouldn't bring a known drug dealer to justice because it was icky. No-one's in it for our sake, buddy. The battle is our own, and the hill is pretty steep. You have the added pressure of being gay, or at least confused about your sexuality, in a non-accepting world. I feel for you. I know that I'm a straight person, but I've got my share of confusion and dysfunction and ugly shit to deal with, too. Leosha, I wouldn't worry too much about being what society considers "a real man." Real men aren't raped. But we were. It can't be changed. Just be the man you want to be, and you will be a much smarter, happier person. Talk to me, Justin. You're not the only young man out there.


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#72023 - 11/07/03 10:31 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Ok...Let's see if I can even express myself...

Ok, I didn't finish college, and I'm no Einstein, but what I'm hearing here, is that LOVE and AFFECTION are what's missing in most of your lives. Some of you were horribly abused by guys, who were supposed to be in protecting or nurturing roles in your lives. They were SUPPOSED to be LOVING you---the RIGHT way--the HEALTHY, building way. They didn't---they took away wonderful important things from each of you, and it enrages me too.

You're all expressing this common craving to be held by a man, but what I'm seeing is, it's a completely non-sexual craving, like it should have been to begin with, nurturing, safe and warm with no "penalty".

So, my question is, why isn't it all right NOW? What is it that determines that you can't love someone, and be held by them, and keep sex out of it? That's what messed everything up in the first place, mixing the innocent emotional need with inappropriate..."abominations!" The emotional need is still innocent, and still there all these years later. It seems to me (the non-expert) that continuing to mix them, will just perpetuate the wrong kind of feelings and frustrations. Can you "reprogram" your thinking or feelings by doing the same things? Please forgive me if my thinking is overly simplistic. They don't call me Pollyana for nothin'! \:D

Why do you "label" yourself "gay" or melodramatic, or not a 'real' man, or whatever? You need to be heard, you need to be held, you need to be able to express what you feel without being judged, or without having to "pay a price". I don't think that's too much to ask. You have a right to be frustrated when after a gazillion years, and a gazillion tries, your needs still aren't being met!!!

Geez, I sound like some crusader. I'm new at this, but I think I have the potential of turning into one!

I believe in you guys, and I'm proud of you for breaking the silence, and reaching out. Thanks for helping me understand.

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#72024 - 11/07/03 12:40 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
I agree Jeff, ya gotta be who you are. Unfortunately, it sounds like as a child that wasn't an acceptable option. I think I understand the complication thing---like, if it's not ok to be me, then begins the analyzation on what is.

I'm sure the pure and simple you is wonderful. "Simply" wonderful!

Sometimes complex situations are eased by small and simple things. I wasn't suggesting that everyone goes out and tries to "fix" everyone else by looking out only for the other person's needs. I was just wondering what difference it might make if guys in the same boat who may connect because of similar experiences--and needs--reached out with that unconditional acceptance. Y'know, be able to love each other, hug each other, support each other without being "labeled" or having a sexual connotation to everything. The missing links aren't sexual.

I just think...in my pollyanna way...that if a guy reeeeeally needs to be held by a guy, it's a genuine thing, not dumb or inappropriate or an embarrassment or whatever. That need won't be filled any more by a sexual relationship than...than...eating Oreos.

Just a thought! Hey, it might be simple enough to work!

Just a thought!

Smiles,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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