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#72005 - 11/01/03 09:30 PM Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Ok I am to my limit with this shit! I have so much stress and strain and anger lately it's driving me crazy. I have to do something. I've always felt this way, but generally not at such a strong frequency. I'm 20 and I feel like my life is already fucked. I live in Mpls, MN. I have to make friends. I really need to talk to someone. I want to sit next to somebody and talk until I have nothing left to say. This is hard enough but being gay I think makes it another level of difficulty. Because it's yet one more thing to be overcome. My bad self image. I view myself as like the person who did it to me because I feel these urges and act on them. And it feels good. Please help me. Just say something, anything, even pretend to be nice I don't care. I'm so melodramatic, I know. I was critisized my my dad for that over and over. Because I was often sad. And I sometimes make a big deal out of what appears to be nothing, but it doesn't feel like nothing to me dammit!! Why won't anyone listen?? I have tried to talk about this, but no one will hear it. They have knee-jerk reactions to what I say, like I'm offending them by telling the truth! Why am I bad for talking about what makes me hurt?!? I need help you guys. You're the only people I can turn to.


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#72006 - 11/01/03 10:09 PM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Justin,

I hear you.

You aren't going nuts. This is a very real reaction to what was done to you. You are hurt on many levels and you need to get it out. It's a damn shame that you don't appear to have the support network you need in your immediate circle of friends, but it's a sad fact of life for some of us here.

I'm glad you found MaleSurvivor because it is a place where we can talk about what happened to us, what was done to us, and know that there are people who understand. You are not alone, Justin. I understand. Everyone here understands. And we're listening.

I don't know why you feel you're acting like your abuser (that's what I got from your post, so please forgive me if I misunderstood). Are you acting out? That is, are you doing some unhealthy things in order to gain control or feel better about what happened? Some of us here (me!) do this, and yes sir it makes us feel pretty bad once it's over. It does not mean that you are a bad person. It just means, however, you need to stop. It's destructive and hurtful to you. I don't want you to hurt, Justin, I want you to get better.

Are you in therapy now? Do you have a therapist you can trust? If not, get one. A rape crisis center in your area should be able to put you in touch with a good one. It can work wonders for your recovery. I know it did for me.

Find someone you can talk to. Perhaps the best place to start, if there is one near you, is a gay community center. Dollars to donuts, there are groups meeting that deal with sexual trauma and there you can talk it over with fellow survivors. Professionals too.

Finally, it doesn't hurt to take stock in what you are doing. You're reaching out, an incredibly brave thing to do. That's an important step, no matter what the result. Too many people wallow in their hurt because their afraid of being judged, or worse, think it's a sign of weakness to need help. You are a courageous and intelligent young man, and you deserve to be heard. This coming from someone who isn't even sure of his own sexuality because my developmental process was interrupted by some selfish @$$hole who thought more of himself than someone else.

You will get better Justin. I know you will.

Please feel free to PM (private message) anyone here who you feel secure in speaking with to help, myself included. We are an undestanding bunch of joes and we all want to help each other. Get helped, help someone else. Pay it forward, that's what we do.

I love you, brother, no strings. Thanks for being here. I want to hear what you have to say.

Peace,

Scot \:\)

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72007 - 11/01/03 10:56 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Scot. Thank you. What you said to me I can feel and it does feel good to know somebody gives a shit. I too am very confused about sex. I want affection more than anything. From another guy. I don't know why, it just feels good to have a guy hold me. Sex took getting used to, and I'm still not totally comfortable with it. My partner was abused too. We feel we are both gay. We love each other. But I still feel weird sometimes. Like it's not "right" to be with a man in this way. Even though emotionally it's what I need, the physical part was repugnant at first. Sometimes it still is. I think I know what it all means- my abuse caused me to identify sexuality with the male body and male emotional affection, while still feeling guilty about enjoying something shameful. But we are two guys who care about each other regardless, and I feel safe next to him at night. Is this normal? I need acceptance I guess. It's hard to find in this world. But I will try to call those places you listed. Maybe they will help me. Thank you Scot.


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#72008 - 11/01/03 11:08 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Jeff: I read your message and I'm amazed. Everything you said is exactly how I am. I had no idea all my problems tied in with this. For years I had many different psychologists tell me I was many different things- narcissistic, megalomaniac, bi polar, chronic depressive, hystrionic, potentially psychotic etc. all those listed are actual terms used to describe me by these people. They told me I was fucked up for years and I believed every word of it. Because I didn't know better. Because I'd never heard from any other survivors. I knew there must be others but until now I never contacted any. Nobody understands why I act so weird all the time. Why I'm so shy and fearful. I withdraw so much in solitude, but it's not really what I want. In time I want all this to change. I would like to feel better. Thank you for writing what you did, it was like seeing myself on paper. It's a strange feeling.


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#72009 - 11/02/03 12:03 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
That's pretty much what I always longed for, to recieve male affection and love. Not sex. Just holding and sleeping and feeling safe. Sex feels good too, though, and I know it's healthy to enjoy it with someone you love. But the main thing I think of is affection. I need it so badly it hurts whenever I'm not directly recieving it. This impairs many facets of my life. How should we deal with this? I'm jobless and trying to find rent money while dealing with the stress of being on probation in another state (!) and also dealing with being a survivor of abuse and the hell that was my adolescence. All along, just wanting a man to hold me. This is what I'm reduced to, a small guy who needs male affection. And barely functions. After 20 years. I need to change the way I do things. Cause if this continues I won't continue much longer. And that's not what I want at all- I want only to be happy


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#72010 - 11/02/03 12:33 AM Re: Going nucking futs
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I think you just told over 2000 guys you live with your parents, I wont tell anyone.

MJ

I hope friends help whyme, I am grateful for your kind words towards me.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#72011 - 11/02/03 01:27 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Whyme,
I know we haven't met- but I feel so much for you. I wish you could feel the warmth and love I want to share. Even if we are divided by decades and states, I think we have felt similar things. I hope you find someone who will show you the affection you deserve. It stabs my heart cold to think that you are 44 and have never experienced affection! Life is fucking cruel and unfair. But I support you. And you support me. And that counts for something. I feel nothing but love for you.


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#72012 - 11/02/03 04:11 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
You have put me in tears reading through the last paragraph. I'm so moved by your words because I too know and share the emotions that make them necessary. You are beautiful, my friend. And you deserve love and warmth. I know that I'm young, not very refined in my speech or ideas, but I do know that the feelings I harbor will always remain there. As I grow older and wiser I will be better equiped to help others. I'm trying to do so now. I'm learning. I want to give love, and I want love in return. Thank you for allowing me both.


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#72013 - 11/02/03 06:30 AM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Justin and Jeff,

I do understand how both of you feel. Now, I am confused about my sexuality at this point (attracted physically/emotionally/intimately to women and men), but part of what made me easy pickings for my abuser was that my father and I didn't get along. Yes, even at the tender age of 11. I was a sensitive, bookish, shy child, and my father's idea of what boys should be didn't fall in that catagory. I was easily bullied and moved to tears, and that hurt my father to the point I'm pretty sure he considered me a "faggot."

God, that hurts to say.

SInce that time, I didn't trust any of my schoolmates (they were cruel and mean to me), and along came this guidance counselor who used that to get me to do exactly what he wanted. My price came pretty cheap, too. All that, and what I wanted from him, what I remember with such goddamn conflicted feelings, was just lying on top of him with his arms around me.

11 years olds shouldn't feel that way. 11 year olds shouldn't know about the "afterglow" of sex. 11 year olds shouldn't have to feel like prostitutes for basic affection and love.

Hurts. Still hurts to this day.

Jeff, what I wouldn't crave for a man to just hold me. Make me feel safe. Make me feel that I was a whole man and worth loving. I thought I had it as a child and it turned into such a f*****g ugly mess. Now, I just crave that. Crave that acceptance and love from a man. What I didn't get from my father and was made so f*****g ugly by my abuser.

Justin, you too are right and deserving to get that. We all are, and the fact that you are trying to get what you deserve shows a courage that I do not have now. I do not trust. I do not love. I want what I cannot have now.

God, I feel your lonliness. I wish I could hug you, tell you it will be all right. It will be for all of us, guys, I know it. But it will be hard work, and some times I do not know if I have the strength for it. But I know I will carry on, because what choice do I have?

You both are inspirations, and I love you. Just that. I love you both. No strings.

Peace,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72014 - 11/02/03 01:55 PM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Jeff,

You needn't worry about someone finding you cold. I feel the compassion you yearn for in others in you now. I do not need to be with you physically to know you are a caring, compassionate person who has so much to offer other people. When you offer it to the right person, you will be rewarded beyond your wildest expectations. You have given me a reason to keep on hoping.

Justin, yes, you are capable of loving and being loved. Do not let anyone ever tell you any different (even yourself, when you get to feeling negative). You may feel that you are young, but you are wise beyond your years, and you have a lot (A LOT!) to share. I look forward to seeing more of that here.

Guys, I hold you close in my heart. I hope it's enough. I love you both. You are the best this place has to offer.

Peace, love, and compassion, brothers.

Scot \:\)

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72015 - 11/02/03 07:29 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
What an incredible thread by a truly remarkable group of brothers. You guys should step back and all give yourselves a great big hug. The strength and compassion here is truly incredible.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72016 - 11/05/03 03:36 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Justin,

This is a wonderful thread. I was busy elsewhere and almost missed it.

It is nice to hear men talk about affection. I haven't found that either though I've been in a relationship for 18 years.

I think part of the yearning for affection for me is partly the desire to be enfolded in a safe place (and to hold another guy in that safe place, too.)

I have always felt cut off from others, different but not just different, more like separate. I desire the affection but fear the intimacy I suppose. And, even if my concious self does not seem to fear the intimacy, my subconcious self has control of my body and refuses to provide that which it craves most.

It is true that the practice of compassion is healing. It feeds my soul. But it, too, seems a separate thing, only going so far, never touching my heart deeply.

Talking, writing about these things takes me to my saddest place but reading what all of you have written encourages me.

Brett

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72017 - 11/05/03 07:11 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Reading all of our posts becomes more and more enlightening and amazing to me every day. The incredible similarities with how we've reacted to the abuse, how it affects our lives, our relationships, is revelation to me. I've read books on the subject, but nothing prepared me for the honest and brave discussion I find here.

I'm sure that for many of you, you've been aware of all this for awhile. I seem to be one of the youngest posters here. Small wonder. I do believe that most kids my age who have endured what I have unfortuanately wind up in bad situations. I'm talking about jails, psych wards or worse. I've been in three foster homes, group homes, assesment centers, hospitals, jail cells, etc. You know- the system. And even now, a year in the clear after a brief stint in jail, I'm pissed off as hell at the system. This is why.

It didn't help me. It hurt me. I know this because my feelings made it clear every day. I was abused in a foster home that I was sent to for the purpose of protection from other abuse! The hospitals did nothing but isolate me further. So I want to know- does anyone here have experience as a ward of the state? Or been involved in some capacity with the system?

My best friend was incarcerated as a juvenile and subject to actual torture at the hands of the gaurds.

So how do I deal with all the rage?

The reason I've went in this direction is because I wish to make an observation about how it relates to my need for affection and my struggles with intimacy. Because all of this compounds the abuse, my need for love was tempered by my fear of it! Because those in the guise of helping authority often abused me themselves!

All these betrayals ultimately make us so needy for love and so fearful of trust that we freeze between reaching out on one hand and accepting what love is offered on the other! It's the saddest place to be. The very worst.

But I have started thinking that since we all feel so similarly and since we understand each other better then anyone else, we should all take steps to trust and feel safe and accept what love we offer each other as being genuine. I think many of you already are able to do this because you've worked at it for so long. Me, I'm new to it. But after saying all of this I want to say also that I'm am deeply thankful to you all for making reaching out a possibility. Jeff, I know how hard it is. But reaching out to me will never end in a disspointment. Cause I'll reach right back to you.

Your friend
Justin


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#72018 - 11/05/03 07:41 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Another thing I was thinking. Being gay in a situation like this, and I'm pretty sure I am, it makes me fearful that I'll be rejected cause someone will be disgusted with it. I have a partner who I've been with for a year who was also abused. We struggle with being uncomfortable about sex sometimes. Does it remind me of the abuse? Sometimes I think so. Is this normal? How do you develop a healthy, sex positive attitude then? I try and he tries but I still sense distance during it. I've read about becoming numb during sex. I hate it. It's a bad feeling and I just want to get rid of it. Has anyone here been successful at getting rid of it? I don't want to make anyone here uncomfortable by talking about this. But it's something I really do worry about. I feel awkward talking about this, but I'm trying to be bold and say what I've wanted to for so long. If I don't reach out- if I freeze- I know I'll never change. Sometimes I wonder if I've confused affection with sex. Is that why I have gay feelings? Because I want a man to hold me. The whole issue confuses me greatly. I guess I'm just looking for other people's thoughts. Maybe some of you have been here before and know about it. I hope that this doesn't alienate anyone, cause that's not my intention. I've come to be comfortable with being held (finally), but beyond that it's a gray area. I just wanted to know if anyone else goes through this.

On another note. The friend I referred to in the last post, the one who was physically abused badly, his behaivior is pretty similar to ours in many ways. But the urge for affection from a male is not present. So I have this urge simply because of sexual abuse. Great. It's nice to know that such a large part of my personality is dictated by early abuse. Is this the real me that feels this way then? Who is the "real" me? Is there one? I will likely never know. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, because this is who I am today, for better or worse. So I might as well accept that, right? And then try to work with what I've got. I'm sorry if this all sounds so basic or whatever, but I really am learning just how little I knew about all this. Christ. It makes me feel somewhat stupid. Like I should have seen it all before. Like I've been blind to everything in my life. It's a weird feeling to realize I'm 20 and just discovering who I am. Common feeling for many of us I suspect. I just wish someone had helped me through it all before. I can't believe how goddamn unfair life has been to so many. It really enrages me. I feel so cold sometimes toward life. I hope this feeling passes soon. It's not very pleseant. Thanks for listening to my rant, guys. I know I can try people's patience sometimes heh.
-justin


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#72019 - 11/07/03 04:03 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Great post, Jeff. You honeslty impress me. And though I am your friend, I wouldn't say that just to be nice. I don't bullshit. I say it because I mean it. You made so many good points. Sometimes when I read what you say I'm in awe because I wish I'd been able to say it like you did. You have a knack, my friend, for putting on paper (or dot matrix) what I feel. The final stages of recovery I have seen glimpses of. I'm confident that with people like you in the world those glimpses will become an everyday reality. We need more people like you! I'm so goddam HONORED to hear the things you say and to be considered a friend to someone so cool. Thanks, Jeff, for your enthusiasm, your thoughts, everything.

Your friend, Justin


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#72020 - 11/07/03 06:43 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I am sick of this too Justin. I am not of this country, I moved here when I was 18 years age, and even with good, very good friends here, i still feel alone sometime here, not belonging or wanted, even knowing that is stupid of me. I feel bad to be selfish as that, it is me proving him right, I am bad, I am selfish, i am wrong. My father, he tell me he make man of me, what he do is to make me man, to hurt me and I can not say it hurt, must say at him that what he do is nothing, it feel good. He would do bad things and I can not cry, men do not cry, not when he is burn me or hit me or make me bleeding, can not cry or react at him of it, he would make it worse, or he would hurt at mom or gran instead and have me watch him do that, scare me more, and never can I say nothing bad of it. Then when he leave, mom make me be her 'little man of house' and I can not let her down, need be strong for her. When can we be the children we suposed to been then, and not have to be this stupid shit thing called 'be a man'? \:\(

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#72021 - 11/07/03 07:52 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Leosha-

The whole "be a man" thing is overdone here in the U.S. We are taught to "be a man" before we even ARE men!

Possible trigger*

I remember once when I was around 8 I was boiling a giant pot of water to make noodles. I fell backwards when I took it off the stove to drain it, and all the boiling water went on me. My dad came home shortly after and saw the mess from the water and decided that although I was burnt red already, I should be punished for spilling it and making the mess. What followed was a beating.

When growing up, I often made plots to kill him. I was shamed by him constantly. I felt like I was the worst person on earth. I was gay as well, and was terrified of him finding out. Trying to be a man in this situation was not really very easy.

But I am out of there. I have started over. I will focus on my present and future. The past may affect me, but I refuse to let it control me.


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#72022 - 11/07/03 08:32 AM Re: Going nucking futs
StrangerInAStrangeLand Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Puyallup, WA
You're not the youngest one here, man. I'm 17. I've been abused, raped, and ignored. I know. The system never helped me either. The first thing I did when I was raped was tell the police. After all, that's what they tell you in school, right? They're there to help. Actually, they would rather pretend you didn't exist. Only girls get raped. I got a call from the Pierce County prosecuter's office almost a full year afterwards telling me that they wouldn't prosecute the case because no-one would beleive that I wasn't a prostitute. They wouldn't bring a known drug dealer to justice because it was icky. No-one's in it for our sake, buddy. The battle is our own, and the hill is pretty steep. You have the added pressure of being gay, or at least confused about your sexuality, in a non-accepting world. I feel for you. I know that I'm a straight person, but I've got my share of confusion and dysfunction and ugly shit to deal with, too. Leosha, I wouldn't worry too much about being what society considers "a real man." Real men aren't raped. But we were. It can't be changed. Just be the man you want to be, and you will be a much smarter, happier person. Talk to me, Justin. You're not the only young man out there.


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#72023 - 11/07/03 10:31 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Ok...Let's see if I can even express myself...

Ok, I didn't finish college, and I'm no Einstein, but what I'm hearing here, is that LOVE and AFFECTION are what's missing in most of your lives. Some of you were horribly abused by guys, who were supposed to be in protecting or nurturing roles in your lives. They were SUPPOSED to be LOVING you---the RIGHT way--the HEALTHY, building way. They didn't---they took away wonderful important things from each of you, and it enrages me too.

You're all expressing this common craving to be held by a man, but what I'm seeing is, it's a completely non-sexual craving, like it should have been to begin with, nurturing, safe and warm with no "penalty".

So, my question is, why isn't it all right NOW? What is it that determines that you can't love someone, and be held by them, and keep sex out of it? That's what messed everything up in the first place, mixing the innocent emotional need with inappropriate..."abominations!" The emotional need is still innocent, and still there all these years later. It seems to me (the non-expert) that continuing to mix them, will just perpetuate the wrong kind of feelings and frustrations. Can you "reprogram" your thinking or feelings by doing the same things? Please forgive me if my thinking is overly simplistic. They don't call me Pollyana for nothin'! \:D

Why do you "label" yourself "gay" or melodramatic, or not a 'real' man, or whatever? You need to be heard, you need to be held, you need to be able to express what you feel without being judged, or without having to "pay a price". I don't think that's too much to ask. You have a right to be frustrated when after a gazillion years, and a gazillion tries, your needs still aren't being met!!!

Geez, I sound like some crusader. I'm new at this, but I think I have the potential of turning into one!

I believe in you guys, and I'm proud of you for breaking the silence, and reaching out. Thanks for helping me understand.

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#72024 - 11/07/03 12:40 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
I agree Jeff, ya gotta be who you are. Unfortunately, it sounds like as a child that wasn't an acceptable option. I think I understand the complication thing---like, if it's not ok to be me, then begins the analyzation on what is.

I'm sure the pure and simple you is wonderful. "Simply" wonderful!

Sometimes complex situations are eased by small and simple things. I wasn't suggesting that everyone goes out and tries to "fix" everyone else by looking out only for the other person's needs. I was just wondering what difference it might make if guys in the same boat who may connect because of similar experiences--and needs--reached out with that unconditional acceptance. Y'know, be able to love each other, hug each other, support each other without being "labeled" or having a sexual connotation to everything. The missing links aren't sexual.

I just think...in my pollyanna way...that if a guy reeeeeally needs to be held by a guy, it's a genuine thing, not dumb or inappropriate or an embarrassment or whatever. That need won't be filled any more by a sexual relationship than...than...eating Oreos.

Just a thought! Hey, it might be simple enough to work!

Just a thought!

Smiles,

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#72025 - 11/07/03 08:05 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
The whole affection/sex thing.

It doesn't matter to me if a man is gay or straight. None of my straight friends give a damn that I'm gay. By calling myself gay, am not labeling any more then when someone calls themself straight.

Now that that's out of the way. Affection often leads to sex. Men do have testosterone and a sex drive, this is normal and healthy. What's not healthy is loveless, cheap, degrading sex. But who said that's the type of sex you have to have? Sex can, believe it or not, be a very healing activity at times. It's a trust and expression of intimacy and love between two people. At least that's what it should be. I said earlier that I still feel uncomfortable with sex sometimes. This is true. But I'm still healing. And my boyfriend never hurts me- he has taught me over the course of a year how to trust again for the first time in my life.

I agree with Jeff when he said it's hard to find appropriate people to meet. It is. And yes, there are creeps out there. I've met them. They're no good. My only advice is to look everywhere you can- talk to people a lot, get to know somebody. Post a personal ad on the net.

Thing is, when you actually meet someone from the internet, it's like meeting for the first time all over again. Because you are meeting them for the first time. I've had success and dissapointments in this. In the end though, searching is worth it. You never know when or where you'll finally meet a person to heal with. They might be a friend or a lover, it doesn't matter. The point is: at least TRY to find someone. Tho for me, it happened when I least expected and in a very unlikely turn of events. I got truly, stunningly lucky. Anyone can. And you guys deserve it, so it's got to happen for you if you're open to the possibility.

Take care all
-Justin


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#72026 - 11/07/03 08:06 PM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Everyone,

I think the measure of a man is to be able to admit that you are a being capable of great tenderness, sensitivity, and love, without being afraid of the world (men, women, society as a whole) crapping on you.

The great sin of "masculinity" in these United States is that we believe it to mean only violent dynamic emotions. When we admit that we aren't for that, when we say we need to hug, to hold, to love without strings, we are being men. We are being courageous. We are warriors with hearts as well as strength.

Justin, Jeff, the rest of you guys, I am declaring to you and the world that we are men! We are capable of love! We are capable of affection! We desire it! We need it! We aren't afraid to give it!

I love you all, my brothers, in the most fraternal, familial, intimate way. And I want nothing from you in return.

It's liberating, don't you think?

((((((((((Justin)))))))))))
((((((((((Jeff))))))))))

Peace and LOVE, my brothers and sisters!

Scot \:D

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72027 - 11/09/03 06:06 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Thomas Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 109
Loc: boise
It seems from the activity on this thread that it has wound down. Rats! The critic in my head berates me: too little, too late again; you're such a loser; you're so worthless; yada. When I began to read the thread, I felt slammed between the eyes with a maul. My typical, lifelong response to emotions is to deny them and pretend I am a logic machine. A major part of my therapy has been to break this denial and actually name my feelings. I needed time to really feel what was evoked. Then, of course, I got a very bad cold and stayed in the apartment yesterday (I do not own a computer and must rely on a university library for Internet access). So I'm just now posting. I hope I'm not too late.

Justin, welcome. I am so sorry that you suffered all the crap that happened. But I am glad you found us. I know you will find brothers who care, who understand, who will listen. Indeed, I actually envy you a little bit - without the resentment \:\) . You say you feel weird at 20 just discovering who you are? How about being 50 and just starting the same journey?

I do not consider myself gay (as much as I am able to, I suppose). Having sex with a man has no emotional attraction. But I confuse affection and sex horribly. So horribly that apart from the abuse my grandfather put me through, I have never had sex with either man or woman. I am terrified (not too strong a word, I think) of men and authority figures of either gender. I have also been emotionally abused by many women. But I still crave affection and I keep trying. Not so much, I think, to make up for what I didn't get as a child, but to enrich my present life. But I go about it all wrong. I grasp and cling and drive people away while trying to hang on to them. Even though I have been attending an Al-Anon group focusing on adult children of alcoholics for two years, I still have a hard time with the hugging. I am sexually stimulated by a gesture of simple affection \:o .

I would have given anything to have some love and affection from my father. But he was too absorbed in the bottle to love anyone, even himself. I think that was his way to cope with his own pain; his father (the same man who abused me for three years from the age of two) abused all of his children male and female, including my father. I suppose, too, that because of my abuse, my father saw me as a litte fag and damaged goods. The night before my grandfather's funeral, my father and his youngest brother were drinking beer and scotch and getting really plastered. My uncle said something to my father about why he put up with that little fag, meaning me. My father, who was quick to take offense when sober and downright mean when drunk (he would go to some of the sleaziest dives in town and deliberately pick fights) never said a word: agreement by silence. That really hurt.

Justin, I too grew up making endless plans for killing my father. He made life hell for everyone around him. Because he would not do anything around the house, I was my mother's "little man of the house." Yes, indeed, besides the physical sexual abuse from my grandfather, I was emotionally incested by my mother. No child needs to be privy to the details of his parents' sexual relationship. No child should have to worry about where the next meal is going to come from. No child should have to come home from school to find the water and power shut off for non-payment. But there was one problem with my plots: I couldn't figure a way to kill him without being jailed and/or executed myself.

Jeff, you said:

Quote:
When we are permitted to reach out, it is usually only to unite to defeat a common foe.

My first example of this is the love shown here for brothers at this site. My second example is when men join forces to rescue their deflated ego's and wounded little boy spirits from the women in their lives. (Yes, football counts, but I am not addrssing that here.)
I'm afraid football or any athletic activity does not count for me. I had a bone disease as a young child which left me not quite up to snuff physically. My physical education teachers would not take that into account and I was constantly ridiculed and put down by teachers and my fellow students: "Oh, no. Why does Tom have to be on our team? Now we'll lose for sure." Nearly every schoolday for three fscking years! I can't read the sports section or watch sports on TV or go to games without having flashbacks and hearing that refrain. To me, sports means failure, ostracism, brutality, abuse, and ridicule.

Again, welcome, Justin. Stick around and you may very well find healing. Thanks for raising this subject.

_________________________
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive. - Robert Louis Stevenson

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#72028 - 11/09/03 09:32 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Thomas Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 109
Loc: boise
Jeff,

Thank you for your words. I admit the hypersensitivity I have about the whole athletics thing. I lack that common bond with men around me and it often gets in the way of getting to know people.

Tom

P.S. That bone disease left me with one leg shorter than the other, to the point that I have to wear a lift on one of my shoes.

_________________________
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive. - Robert Louis Stevenson

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#72029 - 11/09/03 09:45 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
HOLY FUCK THOMAS

An awesome post.

I agree with your views on sports. The same thing happens to me. Fuck those games and cheering and bellowing. So much loudness. I always hated going to games. So fuck sports!

Ok ok, I'll start talking nicely.

So you get an erection when you hug someone. So what. There's nothing wrong with that. Try finding somebody else who is open to it. There's more then you think. After you get enough affection, erections become obsolete when hugging. At first, ANY physical contact may cause erection. I think there are clear reasons for this linked into the abuse. But so what. It's what we are, who we are. We CAN live with the truth.

Besides, what the fuck is so shameful about an erection in the first place? We must stop feeling shameful for our sexual desires. And stop being afraid of our sexual fears. Eventually we will all feel better about ourselves. It may take some time, but dammit, its gonna happen!

Jeff and Thomas- my respect
your friend Justin


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#72030 - 11/09/03 09:55 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
jeff,

forget about having to be like anyone else. Just be YOU. Be who you WANT to be. You need do nothing else. Stop listening or even THINKING about negative things people have said about you- because believe me, it's ALL trash! So throw it out! Hang on to good thoughts, happy dreams, pleasant memories. You've gotta have a couple. You have time to make many more happy memories, don't forget! Just remember- if someone hurts you- they aren't worth YOUR time. So don't spend time thinking about them! Because they aren't WORTH it! It's simple, isn't it? You guys are so intelligent, so brave, so bold, it makes me proud to call you friends. You guys couldn't let me down if you tried. You'd still be my friends.

-Justin


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#72031 - 11/10/03 04:40 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
LOL. hahaha

Jeffy!

If someone is too uptight to handle what you have to say, they are either heartless or confused about their own sexuality. Pay no attention to those who are unkind- they aren't worth your precious time, Jeff! I'm glad you have started making a better outlook for yourself. You're gonna be one of the winners in the end, Jeff. I know you will. You've got everything it takes, you just need to keep going out and getting it. And now that you've started with these small positive steps, why stop there? Take a moment to reflect on what a brilliant shining soul you have! I love you my friend.

-Your friend, Justin


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#72032 - 11/10/03 04:51 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
btw don't worry about offending anyone- if they can't take the heat, they need to get the hell out of the kitchen. Don't worry about SOMEONE ELSE'S problems with you- those are THEIR problems, not YOUR problems. Let THEM deal with it. Any thing that you feel natural about doing you need feel no shame over. Take masturbation for instance. At one point, it made me feel very guilty. Society told me it was wrong and filthy. I got a little older and learned the truth, tho- that it's perfectly healthy and enjoyable. Such is the case with so many things we've been taught to be afraid of simply because it feels good. Maybe if all those hateful fuckers out there didn't dislike being happy we wouldn't be raised this way. Oh well. As adults, we can raise ourselves however we damn well want to! Think up. Think good. Think positive. Love ya, Jeff

Yer friend, Justin


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#72033 - 11/10/03 10:24 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Jeff. Just be honest with yourself and true to yourself. The most important person in your life is you. Well is what you want to be. You cannot dictate how others will relate to you. They have their own demons of some sort.

What you are doing is healing in your own way but never alone again. YOU GOT THAT!!!!!

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72034 - 11/10/03 12:24 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
Jeff...

You crack me so up...not for the "subject matter", but the way you verbalize it! \:D I love your posts. Isn't this a great place to be, where you can say stuff and nobody freaks out or judges you, and you don't even have to be embarrassed! I hope you find a "hugger" that will be as understanding in person.

Justin... I need to thank you for giving me info that I needed. What a relief. I now know what to say to my little buddy.

Thank you all so much. You may feel weak and out of control etc, but you are strengthening others, which is the greatest strength of all. I hope I can be of some kind of help in some small way...being a non-male!

(((((Hugs!!!!))))

Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Anne Lamott

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#72035 - 11/10/03 04:15 PM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
You know what really sucks out of this whole damn thing? That we all got robbed of the chance to know what affection should be. Or can be.

I mean, even when we experience it for real, it's been clouded by what our perps did to us. I get so angry about that sometimes.

Would I want to respond to genuine affection? Do I want to just be held? Or will I always be afraid because of what the @$$hole did to me?

I don't know, gents. I honestly don't. I try to be more positive these days, but then another piece of my past comes up and hits me in the face. I cannot keep shrugging it off. It mattered. It hurt. And someone ruined my ability to give and receive physical affection for his own sick pleasure.

I've said it before. What I wouldn't give for someone to just hold me. Hold me. That's it.

I will feel worthy of that again, but I honestly don't know when. And that botheres me.

Thanks for the vent time.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72036 - 11/11/03 02:47 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Scot-

I'm giving you a great big fucking http formatted
hug right now. If the past still scars current affection, remember that scars take time love and patience to heal. For all of us. Give yourself all three and be open to recieving good things from others as well.


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#72037 - 11/11/03 03:26 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Quote:
Originally posted by Justin113:
I have to make friends. I really need to talk to someone. I want to sit next to somebody and talk until I have nothing left to say.
I went to an out of state family funeral on Friday. Before I left, I left a copy of the ten facts about male sexual abuse from this website for my partner to read. It is very difficult to bring these things up and talk to him about it even though we have been together for 18 years and talk a great deal about all sorts of other things. Leaving the copy was the only way I could think of to communicate the information and it took me a long time to think of that.

I have just begun to become conciously aware of the symptoms of the abuse I experienced. As I have become more and more aware, I have tried to express some of it to people around me. I am more open with people that I am certain care for me and are sensitive to the topic. With others I am more guarded, talk about it more generally, feel them out.

When I got back, I asked him if he had read what I left for him and what he thought of it.

He said he had seen me during dissasociative episodes. He didn't have a word for it before that. He just thought I was being "crazy."

What I am saying is that "craziness" is a perception and a perception is something that can change. And I am saying that it can be as difficult to talk to someone you have known for years as it is to talk to a stranger.

I have come to think that it is important to start the conversation as part of a healing process as soon as possible but I also think that it is important to control that transition, take it at a pace that is comfortable and to not force it.

If I had started the process when I was 20 I would be a different person today but I guess I had to experience a bunch of painful things over a period of years before I was ready.

Justin, you are a living survivor. We all are. As difficult and painful as the path of recovery can be I believe it is all downhill once the abuse is over and has been acknowledged. What can be worse than the abuse was? Justin, you are here. You have began talking.

Brett

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72038 - 11/12/03 07:34 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Justin113 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Jeff and Brett,

In the past few weeks and even months my life has dramatically changed for the better. I went from being completely depressed and in a world of agony to being someone capable of living a life full of joy. Now that I've made this transition, I wish to help those who are pursuring the same path. Cause it's far from easy. Life sometimes hurts more then seems possible. But it DOES get better. Things like trust, security and love are things we build through time and effort and dedication. The first step is to take action and decide it's what you must do. The next step is to say to hell with your fears- you're bigger then your fears. Then you can begin to heal and enjoy life. For me, the healing process has been amazingly rapid once it started. It seemed to snowball, getting larger and larger faster and faster. And it feels amazing good. Take those first steps, guys. Becuase they will lead you to where you want to be. And you're gonna get there.

-Take care guys,
Justin


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#72039 - 11/12/03 11:34 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Justin,

This is why I love that guys of all ages post on this site. In the echoing chamber of my mind, we have all but forgotten the clear ring of a young optimistic voice.

When my selves gather, they are usually so busy bickering and screaming about how awful things are that they practically swallow up entirely the still small voice of hope.

I have reached a sort of accomodation over the years.

First, I have gradually opened myself to enjoying life thoroughly. I have a loving and supportive partner, family and friends. I do work that helps homeless and otherwise at risk kids and I pursue self expression through art with a driven passion. I teach. I work with others cooperatively towards common goals. I touch people's lives and change the world for the better every day of my life.

Second, I have not accepted but recognize the persistence of depression, emotional pain, horrifying memories in myself as well as the persistence of emotional neglectfulness and the abusiveness of those who have the responsibility to care for chldren. I recognize the persistence of violence, war, torture, mass starvation, disease and genocide in the world. I recongize the persistence of racism, hatred (both disguised and plain) and, for want of a better word, evil in the world.

Despite the attentive care of 2 therapists, a psychiatrist, a medical doctor and a whole intricate system of physical and mental health care, I am on an almost constant personal suicide watch.

Despite a virtual revolution in medication treatments, I still experience depression and hopelessness. Despite having a gifted mind, years of reading and study, an understanding of a number of complex belief systems (and religions or philosophies) I am often confused, lost on the path of recovery and Truth.

But, worst of all is the very private and inescapable loneliness which I have experienced from the very beginning. Over and over and over again it has seemed that that might be overcome but that hope each time turns out to be misguided.

Each self-made wall I tear down only finally reveals the original wall, the me-ness which I cannot escape.

Brett.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72040 - 11/12/03 09:04 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Brett
Quote:
But, worst of all is the very private and inescapable loneliness which I have experienced from the very beginning. Over and over and over again it has seemed that that might be overcome but that hope each time turns out to be misguided.

Each self-made wall I tear down only finally reveals the original wall, the me-ness which I cannot escape.
I have done that too but I found out something about that me-ness. It was not me. It was the product of my abuse. The me-ness was hidden inside of myself and terrified to come out. That final wall was nothing more that the real me not being able to see the lie that had been perpetrated on me by my perps. It was my fault and therefore I am damaged goods. Well I sake Fxxk that. It is they who were the damaged goods and I merely hid from them. The problem was I also hid from myself.

I still find myself on occasion slipping into the trap of the false me but now I recognize it for what it is. A means to keep me quiet and to have a whole lot of self loathing.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72041 - 11/13/03 11:41 AM Re: Going nucking futs
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Mikey,

Thanks for the insight. It really helps and gives me a lot to think about for a while. This is the kind of support that I am desperate for and does a lot to help me feel less alone.

As I thought more about that wall metaphor, it did occur to me that a long buried authentic self is hidden behind it along with the darkest part of secrets.

You say "damaged goods." I have described myself as being a broken toy. I first said it without thinking about it but have thought a lot about why that in particular popped into my head. Now if I think of broken as meaning damaged, that makes a lot of sense. The toy part of it, it think, is about being manipulated.

Brett

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#72042 - 11/13/03 04:47 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
You got it Brett.

The Perps do it to all of us and scew up our thinking.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#72043 - 11/13/03 06:27 PM Re: Going nucking futs
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Mikey,

That's true. It's just the unlearning part that I find so difficult.

That, and the inability to trust. I do not trust anyone, even tho I CRAVE it. To be able to be open, emotionally intimate, with another person, well, that comes with genuine affection and I want to be open to that again too.

Thank God for you guys,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#72044 - 11/14/03 11:06 PM Re: Going nucking futs
Thomas Offline
Member

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 109
Loc: boise
That virus that is going around really knocked me on my kazoo. Anyway, I'm back and I'm going to add a few more things.

Scot, you posted
Quote:
Would I want to respond to genuine affection? Do I want to just be held? Or will I always be afraid because of what the @$$hole did to me?
Amen, brother. Even assuming I want to just be held, I react fearfully and defensively. Just being touched can evoke a flinch. Often when another guy just attempts to squeeze my shoulder in encouragement, I find myself jumping or evading the touch. Talk about fear! \:o But there does seem to be room for hope. The reactions have become somewhat less severe in the last few months. Maybe that has something to do with a greater understanding of the roots of the fear, i.e., conscious memories of my abuse, and a better image of myself. Still, I would love, just once, to be able to express affection or even just regard for another person male or female, without having to deal with the intrusions of coitally suggestive overtones. And for these intrusions, I have my perp to thank :p .

_________________________
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive. - Robert Louis Stevenson

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#72045 - 11/17/03 11:59 PM Re: Going nucking futs
bountiful1 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 52
Loc: New York, New York, USA
Hi!

I spent my entire youth screaming for attention by doing any thing i could to just get noticed!!!

If they can't take you being melo-dramatic - there is something wrong with them !!! That is my feeling on that subject. You had a need to present things that way. Any adult should be able to have the common sense to se and feel that you are acting that way for a reason that they may not yet understand. The only appropriate response to you ahould be one of inquiry, especially from a parent - otherwise they are not engaging in having a relationship with you - however you need to be. Melo-drama is no worse than happy go lucky. They are different ways of communicating - both can be as fake or real as the other. Neither is better.

It makes me so mad to hear that someone couldn't investigate what you might be having dificulty speaking out!

That is my take on that.

_________________________
I do not know what signature means in 300 words. I am guessing some thoughts?

Great book that captures the truth of PTSD: The Sentimentalists by Skibsrud

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