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#71901 - 07/31/03 08:50 PM Vatican slams gay marriages
Happy Birthday Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Reuters | AFP | Sky News | The Scotsman | Photos

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday July 31, 09:45 PM

Vatican slams gay marriages
By Estelle Shirbon


VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican has condemned same-sex unions as deviant and a threat to society in a fresh attempt to halt the growing momentum towards legalising gay marriage in North America and Europe.


The Holy See urged Catholic lawmakers on Thursday to vote against bills that would recognise gay marriage in a strongly worded document approved by Pope John Paul -- causing anger among gay rights activists across Europe.


"Marriage exists solely between a man and a woman...Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law," said the 12-page document by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.


"Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour...but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity."


The document also denounced gay couples adopting children: "Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children."


Gay rights groups were swift to hit back.


"This is just the latest move in their homophobic crusade," said Franco Grillini, an Italian lawmaker and honorary chairman of Arcigay, the country's largest gay rights group.


Abroad, the reaction was equally virulent.


"The new statement by the Vatican on same-sex partnerships is a sad document of close-minded fanaticism," said Volker Beck, parliamentary manager of Germany's Greens, junior coalition partner in the centre-left government.


Henk Beerten, chairman of the Federation of Dutch Associations for the Integration of Homosexuality, said the Vatican was fighting a losing battle. "This just shows the Church is way, way behind developments in society," he said.


In Sweden, where gay festival Stockholm Pride is in full swing, the event's president Nicke Johansson said the 83-year-old pope was "irrelevant" to the modern world.


"He's not only old, he's very old-fashioned," he said.


"PROFOUNDLY DISORDERED MINDS"


It was the second time this year the Vatican instructed Catholic lawmakers to vote against bills legalising gay marriage, indicating the Holy See's great anxiety.


Church authorities have also repeatedly condemned homosexuality in more general terms this year, although they say chaste gays should be welcomed into the Church.


In March, the Vatican released a new glossary of sexual terms which said countries which allowed gay marriages were inhabited by people with "profoundly disordered minds".


Debate over legalising gay marriage has intensified in North America since Canada took steps to do so. Hundreds of same-sex couples have tied the knot in Ontario and British Columbia since the two Canadian provinces gave them the green light.


And just last month, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down state sodomy laws that made it a crime for gays to have consensual sex in their own bedrooms.


Gay marriage is forbidden in the United States, although one state, Vermont, allows same-sex civil unions, and Massachusetts' top court is set to rule on the issue soon.


President George W. Bush on Wednesday rejected same-sex marriages and a White House official said on Thursday the administration would consider seeking a constitutional amendment to ensure a ban on them.


In Europe, the Netherlands has recognised registered gay partnerships since 1998 and Belgium followed suit in January this year. The Netherlands also passed laws in December 2000 allowing same-sex couples to marry and adopt children.

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71902 - 07/31/03 08:55 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Lloyd: I am sorry to say that the Vatican is really out to lunch on this one. They are still living in the middle ages. At a time when there was once three Popes, Priests were playing around with the nuns and babies were destroyed. I am a Catholic and just wish they would get up to date. They are truly homophobic and locked tight in their own doctrine. In a way I feel sorry for them as they will lose a whole lot of parisheners who are really great people.

Remember too that they forbid the use of condoms.

Oh well, here at least, there is sanity.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#71903 - 08/01/03 12:42 AM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Yep, it made me angry and they have already received an email from me if I found the correct address.

I don't know if what I wrote, would be ok for posting here because I am not very nice in my view of the vatican. So for now, I will refrain out of respect for this board.

But I did bring up the issue about how they have swept child abuse under the rug and now they are telling the world to practice hatred towards those who live differently than they do.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
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#71904 - 08/01/03 01:09 AM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
Don,

Don't forget that the Church's initial statements were that "the problem" was a "homosexual problem", not pedophilia or ephebophilia.

It tooks weeks of daily publicity before they used the words sexual abuse, but you rarely see that phrase or even the word abuse in official statements.

I've been searching for the articles where this was stated, from early 2002, but they are no longer on-line at the site where such articles were being stored.

The number of articles keeps increasing every day, and the older ones are being bumped off.

Donald

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

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#71905 - 08/01/03 01:58 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I do appreciate the fact that they have at least acknowledged it and am glad they have done this. I just don't think they have gone far enough at all in this whole issue.

My biggest point that I made to the vatican and other religious entities that give safe haven to child molesters is don't be focusing on gays thinking you are doing the world a favor when you should be focusing on an issue like child sexual abuse.

This whole issue energizes every cell of my body because the home I grew up in not only condemmed and made fun of gays, but also used church and religion to denounce them and to allow a safe haven for child molesters.

You can probably tell, that this whole thing hits a big nerve with me.

If anyone wants to see what I wrote to the vatican, private message me (or email me) and I will be happy to forward a copy of it to you. My letters can get very pointed and direct, and this is one of those.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#71906 - 08/01/03 10:36 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
bosishere Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 161
Loc: nashville,tn,usa
I have not been on the board for several months, and what do I see and read with my first making a statement is the Vaticans distaste anld opposition of gay marriages. b4 they make ANY statements they have to admit the problem of Catholic Clergy abusing little boys and DO SOMETHING LOGICAL ABOUT THE PROBLEM, BESIDES SAYING THEY ARE SORRY. Last week the Commowealth's Attorney General told a press meeting that during the time of the late 1940s thru the end of the 1990s OVER 1000 boys were abused by Catholic clergy in what is the 4th largest total of Roman Catholics in the U.S. And the leaders of that diocese wonder why attendance at Mass onSunday by Catholics has fallenl to only 15%. When are they going to wake up. Bos I forgot to mention that the city in review if BOSTON. Bos


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#71907 - 08/02/03 12:07 AM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5378
Loc: Washington State
Brothers,

Well let me be the first to say fuck the Vatican. Is this the same Vatican that new children where being raped and did nothing? Is this the same Vatican that protects child abusiers? I say fuck them (Vatican) If you are in love a you should be able to be married. The Vatican is afraid of lossing it's power over people that is why they choice not to support same sex marriages.


lots of love, Nathan


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#71908 - 08/02/03 12:20 AM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
tallsteve Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 404
Loc: Boston, MA
Hello all,

This anti-gay marriage pronoucement by the catholic church struck a raw nerve with me. I was raised a Roman Catholic. In fact I even considered joining their ranks.

While the anti-gay theme is nothing new, it seesm that it has hit new levels as evidenced by the following quotes:

. . . ''If it is true that all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians...

When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.''

Gravely immorral? give me a break. After what the Church did in the abuse scandal? I find "comfort" in the above direction with the "first time" phrase. These lawas are typically not enacted at the first go around.

And then on a topic close to home .........
. . . ''Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such (same-sex) unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development.''

My parents are married and heterosexual. They are strict Roman Catholics. They had sex and procreated. I am an example of that.

My parents ALSO beat me severly and sexually abused me. I struggle daily dealing with healing that "envioronment that was not conducive to my full human potential". Would the Church sweep the abuse again under the rug and excuse my parents for their following of the letter of the law?

The thought of being in a catholic church celebrating my parents 50th wedding anniversary in October after the dictum of the church and what my parents did to me raises my blood pressure at the blatant hypocricy of those two institutions. And they wnat me to belive that I am the immoral one here because I am a gay man. NOT.

Perhaps all of this is the extreme thrashing and gasping of an organization trying to gain control....moral control. The moral control that has been eroded so much.

I am sickened by admitting I am a catholic tonight.

Steve


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#71909 - 08/02/03 09:46 AM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2259
Loc: Maryland USA
Quote:
They are strict Roman Catholics.
Quote:
My parents ALSO beat me severly and sexually abused me.
I don't believe both of the above can be simultaneously true. My guess is your parents managed a public mask of being strict Roman Catholics. Certainly no intrerpretation of Catholicism I accept would condone abuse.

I disagree with the Vatican on this issue. I am ashamed of the way some leaders in the American Catholic community tried to cover up the sexual abuse of children. But I see them as two separate issues. Unfortunately, the Church and/or its leaders are wrong on both counts.

If anyone cares, I think that gay marriages are coming, and the Church will learn to accept them as it did Mass in the vernacular, and moving observances of Holy Days, and other changes as it adapts to the world around it. I think female priests are coming to Catholicism, too. In these cases the idea that someone can or should be denied certain status, role, or recognition based on who they are is wrong. The Church will see that.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#71910 - 08/03/03 07:22 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
Happy Birthday Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Steve
Quote:
My parents ALSO beat me severly and sexually abused me. I struggle daily dealing with healing that "envioronment that was not conducive to my full human potential". Would the Church sweep the abuse again under the rug and excuse my parents for their following of the letter of the law?
Yes, I think they would.

The Catholic faith seem to be controlled, not led, from the top down. And those at the top have no idea whatsoever of life in the real world.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71912 - 08/19/03 11:23 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
abcd Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
I haven't been here in months and months, but this is a topic dear to my heart. As a professed, practicing Catholic (and more importantly just a professed Christian), I do have a tremendous respect for the Church (including the Vatican heirarchy). I was very disappointed by their statements, but as a Christian, I am also heartened by what I know to be true: Christ was a rebel-rouser when he was on earth, and this is a time for us to prove to the rest of this world, how Christ is indeed in us.

I find it very interesting, to say the least, that so much of today's rhetoric against stable, gay relationships (i.e. marriages) are similar to those made in the past at the time of civil rights. Even the backlash for now is what was encountered with the civil rights movement (indeed, how appropriate that Dr. King's relatives back the gay rights movement). Back to the the church heirarchy though...well, how long have many predicted the doomsday messages, and how long have many tried to argue using the slippery slope argument, only to have found themselves later recanting their words. The history of the RC certainly has evinced apologies from the heirarchy (as treatment of Nazi victims, treatment of Galileo, treatment of native peoples), and I believe this will be one of those times.

The key I think though is for those who have known us for years to just be good people and the like (knew us before our sexuality) to be testaments to our truly "good" nature. So often many in the public have these perceptions of gay perverts (and I admit there are many who are) that it paints their whole judgment. As painful as it may be, I suppose that when we are ready (and I believe we have to be careful here for those who are not out and especially as abused persons), we have to stand up for ourselves and prove to those who would seek to judge us that we are NOT the stereotypes.

Anyway, that is it. That's my 2-cents (all I can say for now, is go Episcopalian Church!--I know that Christianity will be moved to a new phase of its growth...we simply have to be patient, persevere, and like with our abuse, NEVER give up). God Bless : )


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#71913 - 08/20/03 12:53 PM Re: Vatican slams gay marriages
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I think that in all the rhetoric by organizations and secret deals and instructions what becomes clear is that society fears the unknown and that this fear becomes an irrational rejection of anything that is outside the "so-called" norm. As well there are bigots, racists and downright liars (who are hiding their own secret feelings).

As a young person growing up I had several friends who were gay and saw them being torn apart by their double lives and the slurs and comments of others. I have also seen the bravery that they have shown in coming out and feeling free.

I see no reason why people of any sexual persuasion should not be able to live in a conjugal relationship. And it does not matter what it is called; marriage or whatever. The important thing to remember is that the relationship involves love, understanding, compassion, joy, sharing, caring, etc.

Now as far as I remember that is exactly what Christ, Buddha, Mohammed have preached. Love thy fellow man. But when that damned beauraucracy gets involved the take everything as being literal.

If humanity discovered a live Loch Ness Dragon we would surely kill it to see what made it live and by destroying it would feel secure and superior.

I find it truly amazing the lengths people will go to protect themselves from others outside the "Norm".

I think this hold true with survivors of SA. Society , in general, believe that we are not normal and while voicing concern would rather not deal with us or our problems. Because we are unknown. By doing this they continue to protect those that have preyed on us and continue in their destructive ways.

But thank god there are places like this and others in society who are rising up and saying "What the hell is normal anyway". It is nothing more than being yourself and being free to choose and to be safe in society and feel like you belong.

My brothers whether we admit it or not we are all "NormaL"; we just have a big pile of shit to deal with. And we are from all sexual persuasions, religios beliefs, and racial origins. But most of all we are brothers who share, care, enjoy the company of, hope and dream. Now didn't I write that someplace else. Hmmmm. ;\)

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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