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#71447 - 05/13/02 11:29 PM Before or After? Cause or Because?
Ron_dup1 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 87
Loc: Arkansas
Hey guys I have a question. I don't know what I am to label myself... depends on the day and who walks by whether I feel Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, or simply asexual. I do tend to feel that I am gay, but I have never had a relationship or had sex since my abuse ended at age 13. I wonder if I was gay at birth and maybe my abuser saw that in me even at age 9 and that is why he chose me? Or are my gay feelings a result of the abuse by another male as my first and only sexual experience?
Do any of you all feel like this or have similar questions? Do any of you have any advice that might help me sort this all out?
Thanks,
Ron


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#71448 - 05/14/02 09:37 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
I have the same conflict Ron, and have asked myself the same questions. Always looking back into the past, wondering if that is the cause of what feel like strong compulsions.
A couple of times, I have been so sure of being one or the other, then another crumb of truth gets dropped on my head and I'm back to square one. One day I will know.

Do you think you're trying to decide this so you can blame or vindicate yourself though? I know that is wrapped up in the process with me. The acting out continues for me and I guess I'll know the answer when it stops.
Until then, I know that what happened to me, regardless of whatever my sexuality is, was wrong. They had no right to do that to me.


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#71449 - 05/14/02 11:28 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
bosishere Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 161
Loc: nashville,tn,usa
hello guys. Yes, what was done to us is AND always be wrong. We ALL have time I had troouble accepting that fact. For me it took some fifty (50) years to accept. However, about eleven (11) years ago I came up with the phrase - "I am what I am, please understand me." If people I meet along the way don't accept that fact, then TOUGH SHIT FOR THEM. I consider myself BETTER THAN THEM. I realize that that fact is a continuing act, but what I do not understand is why the hell does it continue to get worse? Thanks for listening. Bos


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#71450 - 05/14/02 01:40 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I've been married 28 years, never had the urge to chase other women ( even if I have been chased occasionally \:o ) and like most guys I love to watch a pretty girl go by, just because I'm on a diet- I can still look at the menu !
I have never looked at another man in the same way though, never thought of any other guy in a sexual way, so I guess I'm "straight"
So why do I still fantasize about sex acts with other men ? I've tried them all as a kid and at the height of my acting out tried them again. I don't like them. But the fantasy STILL remains, and seems to be the only one that works.
I'm confused, but among survivors this kind of confusion seems all too common.
My belief is that being gay or straight has much more to do with the feeling of going weak at the knees at the sight of someone, feelings of attraction and love, rather than feelings of lust.

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71451 - 05/15/02 08:49 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
I'm pretty sure the acting out I experience is directly connected to what happened so many years ago. It seems to center specifically on the kinds of acts performed.

It gets a little wrenching though, because that feeling of compulsion is very strong, pervasive and convincing while its around. It always drops me in a bucket of shame when its done with me though.
When I see a pretty woman (or a woman with a nice ass) something stirs in me. But when I see guys on the street, nothing does. It only seems to come out of that feeling which feels like a compulsion. Almost like its looking for something.


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#71452 - 05/15/02 12:41 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Spider-Man, I thought Iwas the ONLY guy in the universe who thought that way for over 30 years. And as much as I hate the thought of others having experienced what I did, It's so good not to be alone.
And with a whole lot of work it's getting better for me, but it's slow and I hate being on my own, that's when the crazies climb the walls .
Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71453 - 05/15/02 02:40 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Hits the nail on the head....After being abused I didn't have sex with anyone for 15 years...didn't even consider being gay...didn't like men...so I got married. Now I fantasize having sex with men all the time but in person...I hate them....Why..am I just afraid of myself????? Sex can be wonderfull at times and drive you nuts too? Last night I acted it out again with my wife fisting me...kinda sore but happy????? I feel that if you are a male SA survivor...you should have a hard core acting it out way..on the side to go to when needed. Like Tinfoil said about have a huge ass if you were raped lots while a child...well, it's true! Hey, but what's with this fantasizing gay sex and not being able to cum with out it????????

Eddie

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: getteddie ]


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#71454 - 05/15/02 07:20 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
well for me I can't act out with my wife, two reasons- 1 she hasn't got a dick, so I can't do blow jobs and 2, the most important thing, so far I've kept all my acting out seperate from her, she knows all about what I've done in the past and what my fantasies are.
Also I don't think I could handle the guilt trip. When I was acting out it drove me to the edge of suicide,( we aint got your kind of firepower over here Tinfoil, it's the vacuum hose on the tailpipe- no class at all eh ? ) It's a major fuck up acting out, and I was extremely lucky that I kept my two lives so seperate, and the "normal" life more or less stayed that way. And with my wifes incredible understanding that's more or less how it stayed, life aint the same that's for sure, but it's better.
My old split life is going, the acting out part is slowly fading and I mustn't let it bleed into what's left. And it's the same with the fantasy, I hate it because I know where it came from, I know it's a false fantasy because I've been there, done that, and I don't like it. I actually had a fantasy come true a few years ago and it was so dissapointing, and the guilt so much worse. The problem is that it's so insidious and just sits there waiting to torment me. When we have sex it creeps in and ruins it, so do I accept the fantasy ? It's an option, but the fantasy is what led me into acting out many years ago and the thought of that happening again scares the shit out of me.
I'm rapidly heading for asexuality, and that's not what I want.
Fuck me- I'm all confused now !!!!

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71455 - 05/15/02 09:56 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Ron and all of you guys too,

The acting out result of the abuse that happened to me is like I'm trying to replicate the abuse but in a situation where I feel like I'm in control and not being forced into doing something. It's insidious really because the exact opposite is the truth, it's still compulsive. I didn't tell anyone about the abuse for 38 years, not even my wife. I used to get into really dark moods, spiral down and act out, which just made me feel worse afterwards. I always regretted it and always told myself that I'd never do it again. I felt that I was two separate entities and one didn't affect the other.

I've learned a lot about myself in the 4 years since I started dealing with it. My wife knows about the abuse, she even knows about how I acted out in the past and she knows that I'm struggling with it now. It almost destroyed our now 32 years together but we survived it and have gotten to understand each other better. I haven't been perfect, I've slipped a few times since I told her but I've always played very safe 'cause that's what I'm most afraid of. It's becoming less of an influence on my day to day life and I know it will always be there to some extent. And I'll always have the lingering question, 'what would my life be like if it didn't happen?' The question of my sexuality, in my mind, is not black and white but all sorts of subtle shades of grey. The confusion just won't go away but it is getting less intrusive.

I feel a whole lot better about myself now than I did a year ago or 4 years ago. I have hope and I sincerely believe that there is hope for all of us. I'm glad that I found this place.

Take good care of yourselves,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#71456 - 05/16/02 08:59 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
It is good to know you're not alone. I remember when I first came here, lurking in the background and reading posts, it was salve to know that I wasn't the only one going through this. That bit of knowledge goes a long way.
I had these compulsions before I remembered and couldn't figure out where the hell they were coming from. Then I remembered and I looked at it and went 'oh'.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:
Spider-Man, I thought Iwas the ONLY guy in the universe who thought that way for over 30 years. And as much as I hate the thought of others having experienced what I did, It's so good not to be alone.
And with a whole lot of work it's getting better for me, but it's slow and I hate being on my own, that's when the crazies climb the walls .
Lloydy



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#71457 - 05/16/02 11:53 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
I must be the only Male SA survivor in the world who acts it out with Fisting???? Started out with another man...me wanting to act it out in a way where I really got hurt..but I liked it? When my wife found out... she said that she would do it for me and has been for almost 2 years! Used to do it up to 6 times a week..now down to once a week...sometimes more. I thought that it would kill me but it turned into pressure release valve...a way to stay alive!!!

Eddie

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: getteddie ]


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#71458 - 05/16/02 02:50 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Eddie
And you other guys, just how lucky are we that our wives accept our pasts, and help us through it in whatever way they can ?
Although I guess there's many marriages and relationships gone down the tubes when our acting out is revealed, and is that such a bad thing ? if my wife wouldn't support me I would have walked away for sure, if she couldn't do it then maybe it would be different. Without the support the chances are the survivor would just be getting more crap and guilt, and we got enough of that shit to last us a lifetime.
My wife understands it's a compulsion that takes me over, however distressing she found it. But if I was chasing other women, she'd kill me- slowly and painfully !!!
And Steve is so right in saying it's as though some of us want to re-create our pasts, but on our terms this time. For me it didn't work, it was just like the abuse but now I was inflicting it on myself.
Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71459 - 05/16/02 06:53 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
My boss would tell me about the next days work, somewhere many miles away.A job on my own at a remote site that I could finish in minutes.
And almost instantly I would start on the new improved fantasy. It was going to be the ultimate one, a slow methodical build up that would last all day and in the afternoon I would ride home via all the stinking public toilets hoping to get lucky.
As soon as I awoke next day it would start,I would sit eating breakfast oposite my wife and imagine the days events unfolding before me.
The day would progress and the new fantasy would take shape, although the reality is, just how many ways are there to meet strangers in toilets and suck them off ?
But I didn't let that stop me then, oh no. The fantasy would gather detail, jeans or trousers to unzip ? stay in the toilet or drive somewhere quiet ? But these were small details really, the main event was the sex, always the same- but the anticipation was always exciting and somehow different.
As the day went on my excitement rose until I threw my tools in the back of the van and took off with the tyres spinning. I drove in a blur with my heart racing, all thought was of what was going to happen shortly at the toilet. I could taste adreniline and my body shook as I stumbled into the toilet, I would have fought my way in !
Empty, fucking empty !! Drive on to the next. Same again. DRIVE- FUCK - EMPTY.
Have a wank. AAAHHHHH....
Has anyone actually experienced the ultimate wank ? Didn't think so.
Guilt, shame and depression, that was my experience, not the ultimate sexual experience.
And when I did get "lucky", strangely, I felt no better- probably, no certainly, worse. Did I learn ? Don't ask......
Well yes, I suppose I have learnt in the end but it was fucking hard work. I haven't acted out for about 12 months, although the fantasy sometimes gets a toe in the door. Perhaps it always will ?
The inevitability of the process is frightening, once I started I had to finish, and what scares me still is the knowledge that I know the level of excitement I can create just by using my imagination, the adreniline rush was tremendous- better than most drugs and drink I've tried, and so easy to create. I can't get that sort of rush by driving a custom built 4x4 in extreme competition !
Isn't the mind a wonderfull thing, as long as it aint fucked with!!! ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71460 - 05/16/02 09:55 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Lloydy,

I have felt the same way. I planned every step of the way, exactly where I would stop along the way, how long I would stay there, how late I could come home or arrive and not have to explain myself. I still catch myself starting to do it whenever I have to travel. I bought a fast motorcycle almost 2 years ago that's unique and very nice looking. The really strange thing is when I'm riding it I refuse to leave it out in front of any of those places that I used to visit. I seem to care more about that 'bike than I did about myself. It keeps me sane in an insane way. The first therapist that I really connected with before I moved to CA gave me a little exercise to do whenever I got in one of the compulsive moods. He asked me to just pull over to the side of the road, think seriously about what I was planning, and count to 50. Nine times out of ten my anxiety level would be reduced enough that I wouldn't continue on that path. I haven't let anyone suck me for over a year now. And, no, I never had the most fantastic blow job imaginable. I always felt horrible afterwards and just wanted to get somewhere so that I could take a shower.

I still have the fantasies. I still have the desires/urges. They have diminished over time but they are still there. I have to keep my guard up at all times and it just wears me out sometimes. When I'm riding the 'bike fast on a nice bit of twisty two lane back road I don't have time to think about anything else, I have to concentrate on what I'm doing right then. It's actually gotten so that I don't have to drive so damn fast anymore. A couple of crashes, a couple of broken body parts, and lots of new parts & plastic bodywork for the 'bike taught me something I guess.

Just knowing that others are dealing with the same issues gives me hope. Like many other survivors, I had believed that I was the only person in the whole world that behaved that way and had those thoughts. That belief just gave me more justification for my feelings of worthlessness. I feel a lot better about myself now than I have in the past and know that I deserve the things I've worked hard for. It wasn't just good fortune, I was driven to do the best damn job possible hoping that it would make up for all of my self professed "hidden defects". I'm planning a two week motorcycle trip this August and I haven't thought much at all about stopping anywhere for sex. That's a big step for me.

Take good care of yourself, you deserve the best that life has to give, we all do.

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#71461 - 05/17/02 12:29 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Steve
It's such a good site this, where else can you interact with other guys who have the same problems and talk so openly, my guess is that you'd be very lucky to get this frank a discussion in many group sessions.
Which eases the load and the guilt trips so much. No matter how often my excellent therapist reassured me my experience wasn't that uncommon, or how often I read about it in books, I never really grasped that there are so many others like me. To talk to you all, and discover I'm not alone is so reassuring.
My "cure" was remarkably simple and the sole inspiration of my wife. She bought me a mobile phone. And some of the first calls were just me gibbering and crying into it, parked by the side of the road. The strength that came back was all I needed. Now I call her just for a chat, and the demons climb back into their hell hole.
She also calls me to tell me to call at the shops, empty the dishwasher, mow the lawn etc when I get home from work, but I can't have everything can I ????
Lloydy ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71462 - 05/17/02 04:41 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Quote:
Originally posted by Ron:
... depends on the day and who walks by whether I feel Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, or simply asexual. Ron[/QB]


Hi Ron,
I have read and re-read this thread more times than I can count. I know how you feel. I acted out on my abuse with other men, anyone I could find. Even after I got married. I dont anymore, but at times I still look and say "Humm he's got a nice ass", or something like that. I dont have any advice for you, just wanted to let you know your not alone in this.

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#71463 - 05/17/02 10:31 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Lloydy,

I do that now too. I call home just before I leave from work to say hello to my wife. Hearing her voice (even if she's had a particularly bad day) grounds me and let's me know that there's somebody out there who loves me, warts and all. It keeps me from wandering. Speaking of which, I've got to get home now, the 'bike's all back together now and faster than ever. I think I'll keep it that way.

Take care,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#71464 - 05/18/02 04:01 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Ron_dup1 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 87
Loc: Arkansas
James
thank you, I have read this discussion over and over again as well. It really didn't go where I thought it would but it has been great! I guess I just don't know if I'm gay or not. I mean women and men turn my head, but it seems that sexually I find men more attractive. I just wonder if that is because that is where I have the most experience, due to the abuse. Or if it is because I understand and know what feels good to a man. Or is it just because the abuse has skewed my perception of what sex is and who it should happen with. Or was and am I gay and have been all along????
confused and searching
Ron


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#71465 - 05/18/02 10:32 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
Ron:
I've been there, done that. Its very bruising, that particular confusion. I had that for quite a while - a burning need to know what my sexuality was/is. I still don't know. But. I have figured out why I had such a burning need to know - specifically what it would say about me and what happened to me if I were gay or bi or hetero. I've since turned to looking at it in terms of 'what happened to me was wrong and they had no right'. Everything else will follow in time. I do know I like women. As for whether I'm partly, slightly, or not at all bi, I don't know. And while the acting out is around, I'm not going to know. It muddies the water too much because I can't tell if its coming from what happened or if its a seed that was waiting in me before.


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#71466 - 05/18/02 04:28 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Ron,
I wish I could give you an answer to your questions, there are the same ones I fought with. I know now that I was tought to like sex with men. Doesnt mean I dont still look, becouse I do, Doesnt mean I dont still think about it becouse I do, I just dont act on it. I sure wish I had an answer for you that would make all of this easer for you, but keep talking and you will find your answer your self.
James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#71467 - 05/19/02 08:17 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
hey I am just confused, and scared
I just want to be loved, no sex
I need male friends
I do have a sunday group we meet
today, I struggle just like the rest of
you, I hate it.

I am finding what I really want, hopefully with the abuse behind me not in front of me.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#71468 - 05/19/02 10:18 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
orodo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/02
Posts: 735
Loc: Imladris, The Safe Haven of Ar...
I have been monogamous with my wife now for 14 years...but I still fantasize about sex with men and women. It's very difficult to not see others as sexual objects when we were introduced to sex as something acceptable at such a young age (8 years old for me) So I look, but I never touch, cuz then I would lose the only person who truly seems to love me unconditionally, my wife. And she is the best lover I have ever had, and I've known more than what I think is my fair share of partners. (I'm waiting for the day when my wife will really be ok with me saying to her "Check him out, what a hunk" or she can say to me "wow what a babe she is, don't you think?" without either one of us flipping out about the other actually taking a peek.)

_________________________
It is better to be Dragon Master than Dragon Slayer. Some Dragons are meant to be mastered, others meant to be slain. Odin, Great Spirit, God, grant me the wisdom to know the difference. "May the Valar guide and bless you on your path under the sky"

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#71469 - 05/21/02 09:08 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Just Call me J Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 204
Loc: Inland Empire, California
Hey guys, I'm with you on the confusion thing. And, lucky me, I get to heap some more confusion on top of it. It's not all bad though.

Here goes: I crossdress. I've been mostly asexual most of my life, but I've felt that compulsion since I was in 3rd grade. It brought a lot of shame along with it. I only discovered about my abuse within the last year, so I finally begin to understand where so much of the shame comes from.

My best friend of 5 years that has helped me to come to terms with my crossdressing (and now with the abuse) is lesbian. I've gone out dressed with her on several occassions, and am learning to be okay with the idea. In the last 7 months, she and I have actually started dating. It's easy for me to explain to my friends about my girlfriend, cuz it appears normal (on the surface anyway). It's harder for her to explain to everyone, cuz she's already come out to everyone as being into girls. When I'm dressed up, I can actually be her girlfriend.

We're cool enough with each other to not be threatened by checking out other people. Usually, she is pointing out the hot girls to me (my radar for that sucks).

While I don't check out guys on the streets, I do have the fantasies about sex with men in general. I don't (always) like that I have these fantasies, but I can share them with my girlfriend. We have incorporated some of these fantasies into our sex play.

She still gets to use the strap-on she got when she was with women. And it's even been able to help me out, when I couldn't perform personally.

I'm not always comfortable with the fact that we do that, though. Occassionally I'm totally up for it; a few times, I beg off when I thought I wanted it; a lot of times, we just do something else; and a few times, I've played with it on my own, and didn't tell her about it till I felt like shit about it later. As long as I keep the communication open with her, things are incredible between us.

Two days ago, we got into a long conversation about whether or not I'm gay, or if I might even be transexual. When she asked if, given a choice to start life from conception as a boy or girl, which would I choose, I found it hard not to say that my outlook on life would certainly have fit better on a girl, than on a boy, but I don't have that feeling of "wrongness" about my body that I've read about from transexuals.

Before I came out to her about my crossdressing, she had thought that I was gay (but in denial) because of the level of feminine behaviors I display. Since she learned of my dressing, she concluded that dressing accounts for the feminine behavior, and she was probably wrong about the "gayness." Troubling for me though, is the night that I came out about the abuse, I also had a compulsive need to declare "I'm gay," which I did. I'm still not sure what that was about, but it's hard to ignore. However, we're dating now, so she certainly has a stake in my heterosexuality.

Or perhaps, I AM a transexual, who is gay, therefore making me a lesbian trapped in a man's body... \:D

See, I told you it was confusing.

But the good thing is that we both love each other deeply, and we did not have to sacrifice our friendship to become lovers. We are still the closest of friends, and we continue to support each other through some very tough emotional times (I've written about them elsewhere on this site). She has said that being lesbian was really about having the freedom to love who she wanted. And we love each other, regardless of gender or orientation.

Anyway, I feel very lucky, and very blessed to be with such a wonderful person.

We're in this together.

Jeremy

_________________________
We're in this together. - Nine Inch Nails

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#71470 - 05/29/02 07:27 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Just Call me J Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 204
Loc: Inland Empire, California
Wow, there's nothing like killing a thread...

We're in this together.

Jeremy

_________________________
We're in this together. - Nine Inch Nails

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#71471 - 05/29/02 07:58 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Wow Jeremy
What's left to say after that !!!!
I admire your candour and your openness and I hope you and your girlfriend continue to be there for each other.
Be cool and have fun.
Lloydy ;\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71472 - 05/29/02 09:11 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Just Call me J Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 204
Loc: Inland Empire, California
Thanks, Lloydy!

It's so weird that I don't write much here anymore. When I first discovered this site, I spent several hours a week writing out my thoughts on what's going on.

I guess it's a good thing that my real life takes up enough time to keep me from spending very much time for writing. But I feel like I'm less able to articulate what's going on, through speech, than I am through writing. I miss that clarity I had from July to October (before I moved in with my girlfriend).

Go ahead, check out my old posts. They are LOOOOOOONNGGGG!

But I feel like I've just rehashed the same old thoughts, instead of breaking any new ground. I still don't know what happened to me, nor by whom. I finally got a little more evidence of it, but no actual memories. It's circumstantial evidence, and not very good at that.

Anyway, thanks for reading what I had to say, and thanks again Lloydy, for responding!

We're in this together.

Jeremy

_________________________
We're in this together. - Nine Inch Nails

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#71473 - 05/29/02 10:41 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Just Call me J. This happened to me back in 1990. I was working for Steffanino's Art Gallery in Newport Beach as a plastics fabrication specialist. Drove Red Hill Ave all the way home to where it dead-ended in the hills of classy North Tustin/Lemon Heights. On the way home one afternoon I pulled up behind a car. All I could see was the driver's back. Holy shit she was hot! A blond,early 20s,slim build. Could'nt take my eyes off her. We continued up Red Hill,me tailgating her. Traffic was'nt much so I reached into my pants & fondled my whang,looking at her and fantasizing how tight she must be. I figured she could crack walnuts. At El Camino Real I pulled up next to her. She wore a mustache. She was a guy. A long haired hippie. It was quite an experience for an Orange County Republican.


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#71474 - 06/07/02 09:36 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
Quote:
Originally posted by Just Call me J:
Troubling for me though, is the night that I came out about the abuse, I also had a compulsive need to declare "I'm gay," which I did. I'm still not sure what that was about, but it's hard to ignore. However, we're dating now, so she certainly has a stake in my heterosexuality.
For me, the same sort of thing holds true. But at the same time its false, because I like women way too much to give them up.
I think its a conflict between what I was taught by the abuse, and what my natural instincts/inclinations are.

I think, therefore I'm confused.


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#71475 - 06/17/02 05:18 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
I am not sure whther my post will help anyone else, but this thread helped me.

I act out in a hetero way, because my abuser was a female, but the impulses and the acting out are right in line with what you guys are talking about.

I have planned outings, purchased paraphernalia. I have wasted hours trying to plan where I would go, how long I could be gone. I have been late to work, late home, almost caught several times. All to expose myself to women.

It was over the internet and in my car, asking women on the street to take my picture, first the innocent picture, then when they had taken that picture, to take the real picture I was there for, the one of me jacking off for them. I even got a few women to do it, and the fantasy came true. But did it satisfy? NO....it made me feel like shit, full of shame and humiliation, like I suddenly realized what I was doing.

I stopped just a few weeks ago. My wife found a picture of a woman, naked, holding a naked picture of me. I kept it...did I want to get caught? I am relieved that I have been caught, but I am scared that all my turn ons are inappropriate.

My wife is overcompensating right now...for her, it is all about 'if I were more appealing, he wouldn't need anything else.' So she is trying to have so much sex with me that I can't want anything else. She has always gotten on me for looking way too hard at other women. Now I can't separate out the attraction.

It almost seems as thought the only answer is to eliminate sex altogether. I am not successfully confronting the idea that I should stop, even though I am not acting out. I cannot shake wanting to look at naked women, and suddenly, every woman I see is dressed like a slut.

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#71476 - 06/17/02 07:25 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Cement
the shock of my wife finding out about my acting out- with men- certainly took the shine off acting out for me. I did go cottaging very occasionally afterwards, but it was rare and thankfully unsuccesful.
She found out when I left a copy of my writings in a temporary file on the computer, I had placed it there when the floppy disc became full and meant to erase it after saving to another floppy.
My writing, that I only showed to my therapist at the time, was very graphic- ALL the details were there.
I was out all one Sunday when she saw it and like anyone else was unable to resist reading what was there. It was 2 days before she said anything to me. She was feeling guilty for reading it !!
The reason for all this detail is regarding your question "do we want to get caught ?"

I swear I left that file on the desktop accidently, I took great care to hide the floppys. And at that time I was still unsure of other peoples reactions.
Also my acting out had taken on a very high risk of getting caught.
And I swear I didn't want to get caught either.

Like you I was ultimately very relieved at being found out, a huge load was lifted from me.
But since then I have often wondered if some subconcious action drives us to take the risks.
If we were thinking clearly, and enjoyed what we did, wouldn't we just do it without guilt and shame, and do it without any risk taking with like minded people ?
I think so, when my fantasy came true I was crushed, it was the worst day of my life. What I believed was going to be so great was just a horrible fumble with a stinking stranger.

The fantasy still hovers around my mind, 3 years since I last acted out "succesfully" but it's dying, it no longer has the power. Now i'm rebuilding a proper sex life with my wife, but it's hard ( well no - it's soft, that's the bloody trouble ) anyway, it does get better. Now the secrets out it's no longer a secret and the power crumbles.

Be good
Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#71477 - 06/17/02 10:04 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Lloydy, Cement and all,

God, the similarities just amaze me.

The shock of my wife finding out about my acting out (with men) was the catylst for us to do something. She found out because we got into an argument. I was depressed, stayed home from work, was withdrawn and she insisted that I tell her, right now, what was wrong with me, what was bothering me. So I did. In graphic detail. It just about did it in for our 30-some years of marriage but we made it through it and things are getting better day by day. We both felt it was worthwhile to continue our married life together although I am still struggling with my personal demons. My wife is seeing a therapist now and dealing with a lot of her own issues.

We're having similar problems with our sex life, it's difficult (it's just not hard). Part of our problem is health related, I'm diabetic and my wife is on dialysis. But surely there is a psychological component in there too. I'm not letting the physical aspect of sex (or lack thereof) keep me from staying close to my wife. Just the contact, hugging, holding hands, talking even, has added a lot to our lives and keeps us from drifting apart.

Take care,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#71478 - 06/19/02 08:28 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Everyone,
I do have the same problem...But I was wondering...Why is there a different place for the Gay Men...When no one can figger out if he is Gay or not???? You got a bunch of married guys taking about this...are they asking the Gay guys if they have this problem...or are all the Gay guys HARD and know that they are GAY????? Like what the fuck...are there any Gay guys here...with over 700 members...if there are...they sure don't talk much...I know that they must think that all the married guys...that are wondering...are NUTS!!!! WHY..split the men up into Gay and Ungay...When no one knows where he is coming from????...Civil Rights and all that good stuff????

Eddie


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#71479 - 06/19/02 10:55 PM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
I hear you, GetEddie, especially since we all have the same issues, gay, straight, bi, whatever those terms even mean.... We are more alike than different, I think. But, there may be a purpose to giving space to the traditionally underserved gay population. Hopefully it empowers. I do find it marvelously ironic that I found real similarities to my experience on this particular thread!

These f'ing impulses...I was at a restaurant today and had my digital camera with me (please don't make me give up my camera - although it was my weapon of choice for acting out, I love to take pictures of inanimate objects, it has helped with my impulses, I swear). The clerk asked if the camera was 'one of those where you can see the picture right away.' She asked me to show her and I wanted to make a completely sexual comment and somehow, what? get her to flash me? take a picture of myself and show her? I stopped myself but I was shaken...

Thanks for listening...

And to answer the actual question originally posted, I believe that worrying about sexual identity, gay or straight or whatever, gives power to the worry. We, all of us, are a transcendant sexual type, maybe we need to give it a name of its own. I think, hmmmmm...something to do with the whole being more than just a sum of the parts, as we try to put ourselves back together. Any ideas?

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#71480 - 06/20/02 10:38 AM Re: Before or After? Cause or Because?
abcd Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
Hmm...I think there are a bunch of good posts up top and unfortunately have no time to respond.

I will say this however...I can certainly relate. I hate labels, and don't know where to label myself. In the end, I think I have found that maybe, just maybe it doesn't matter what my sexuality is at this point and HOW it is that I have come to be "bi"--if indeed I am. At least for time being, I mean it truly does not matter...the point is, how am I going to deal with it now? How am I going to live the rest of my life?

At the age of 23, I must admit...I am more confused than ever by my sexuality. I had for the first time actually tried doing things with guys these past few months and found it to my liking as well. However, one thing I've realized is I have to be mature about this. In my hetero side, I am more of a prude--very high standards, very conservative. With guys, I still have high standards but not quite as conservative.

In the past few months, I have found myself experimenting much like a teenager would that had just found his sexual side. The key thing, however, is that I have also found myself regretting the risks I'm taking as it could potentially devastate my entire life--all the things I love and have worked hard for--from work, to family relationships, to friendships. My lust for guys lurking and waiting to express itself in cheap, one-night stands.

This I have found is due to my keeping it all in. By being in the closet with my homosexuality, I find that it is hard for me to grow in that side. I suppress it so much that when it comes out, it REALLY comes out. Does this mean that I am going to come out as "bi"? No, I don't know yet. Nevertheless, I know this...both my homosexual and heterosexual side has to be reconciled and dealt with maturely.

Okay this is getting long...the point is this (and please remember that this is just MY opinion here). I know you are confused about your sexuality--hey, who isn't? Ask yourself though if it TRULY matters whether you know how your homosexuality began? You can spend years upon years sorting this with a psychologist/psychiatrist and even they would never be 100% sure. Most scientists agree that we are 50% genetically-affected and 50% environment-affected creatures.

Do not misunderstand...if you were doing "strange" behavior like tendency for violent gay behavior, then by all means work with a psychologist and the like. Indeed, if you are used to associating homosexual behavior with the behavior that happened with your abuse, please sort that out and separate it (whether with the help of psychologists or mature, committed bisexuals/homosexuals who can help remove the misconceptions of being purely carnal beings).

However, the question of homo/bisexuality is not quite as serious (I don't think) and is something that is left for you and your conscience than anyone else. Most importantly, whatever you decide in terms of what your sexuality is and how you had "gotten it"...make sure you handle it maturely. The road will be tough for us survivors to sort through these issues. There are perhaps some questions we may never answer. Still, having been survivors, I know that we all know something about living the life we want to live. Focus on that...what you DO know to be right goals for your future. In the end, you may have found the answers to your questions simply by living the life for which you had aimed \:\)


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