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#71077 - 12/19/06 10:00 AM what is "gay"?-w/introduction
blueturtle Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Eastern Washington
Hello, new guy here.
I've read some posts and their lineages and they have sparked some of my long standing questions. This being my first visit to this site, I am feeling a sense of hope and "gladness" that this exists and has been here for seemingly quite some time for seemingly quite a lot of male survivors. And also some hope (and wariness) in including myself.
What Ive read so far has sounded compassionate, strong, kind and honest. Those are a balance of qualities I've been working to unearth and to bring together in myself. They have seemed more fleeting and fragmented than real or genuine lately- perhaps due to years of the distortion in my perception from the depression and PTSD. They're in here though and they are sufacing more than I am used too, actually. So anyway heres the deal.
Im 38. Ive been concious of being gay and have awknowdged it since 20-. I however have not had a "boyfriend" all this time. I've rarely let myself have sex-with others. And have pretty much kept isolated and to myself most of my last 15 years. Probably classic traits of a "survivor".
I have avoided or loosely orbitted the gay "community" most of these years. Ive not seen or heard much of myself reflected in the community or its individuals so far. Bits here and there but I have such a sense of tribelessness. An outsider of the outsiders
And then theres the memories of the abuse(from a grandfather, uncle and teacher). I "remembered" during a period of time in my mid twenties. Ive varified most of the family stuff by way of a black sheep aunt who exposed all the untold family secrets during a family confrontation I set up- finding out she was abused by her dad/my g-pa also.
Since being back in my home town I have also gone to the school superintendant with what I remembered about the teacher, when I was strong enough, because I found out he was still in the school system.
So where I'm at now and what I'm still struggling with is how the abuse is stil twisted up with being gay in my (sub)mind. I think I'm afraid to let my self BE gay (ie. make friends, fall in love, have lots of sex, fight for human equality, work to end AIDS, watch lots of old musicals and host eclectic theme parties-though mostly its make friends and fall in love). Because I, somewhere in my unreachable unconcious, have concluded it is a reflection or byproduct or worse- a carrying on of the abuse- for me to be gay.
Then to top it all off, theres the going to hell bit. I am spiritually inclined but have tried to squish that down and out also along with my sexuallity. Affraid perhaps to hear more of the damnation and rejection but also disbelieving when I hear love and acceptance. And I have heard this as I tend to lean towards more nonchristian spiritual paths. Somewhere, again submind I think, I got it that God and gay dont go together.
This is more of a novellette than a post. I apologise AND I am grateful if you are still reading.
O.K. with all that said; confusion from the abuse, lack of gay familiars, fear of hell and damn-nation, etc... With all that I still feel theres something deeper and true-er inside connected with the "gayness" thing. That its not just about the sex or sexuallity. That there is something innately important, purposeful, even magical(or"special") about being gay. Its a faint quiet feeling but its there.
So WHAT IS BEING GAY? is it a real thing or just a label weve put to a behavior so we can conveniently quarantine others or ourselves? I would love to hear what other people think or feel about this who also have had this sex abuse in their back ground. What is it that makes you (us) gay?
Trying to figure out if gay is real and God is real seem to be the two main questions my life has banged up against now. And of course how to love myself and others in the face of all the pain. So if you made it this far in the "post" and have found any personal answers to these issues I would love to hear. Again thanks.Keep on truckin' Daniel


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#71078 - 12/20/06 02:18 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
Brian Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Upstate NY
Hi Daniel,

Welcome to Male Survivor! I'm glad that you finally found us! This is a wonderful site with lots of friendly and supportive people. Sorry I can't help you out with any of your gay issues, but I'm sure some of gay community here will respond to you soon! In the mean time, kick your shoes off, get some hot chocolate (with whip cream) and relax; you are among friends here!

Recovery is Possible!

Brian

_________________________
Recovery is Possible!

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#71079 - 12/20/06 02:43 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Daniel,

Out near Walla Walla?
I lived in the Castro area of San Francisco and I moved north because it was a gay ghetto. That's not reality. I consider my sexuality in the same context of my being a Democrat, Catholic and recovering drunk. It is who I am. I don't flaunt it.

As for the religious condemnation, that is their problem. Where is their charity? God judges, not mankind. Biblical intepretention has caused a lot of problems. Why is it that 'literalists' don't obey all the dicates about circumcision, how women are supposed to behave when in their periods, dietary restrictions etc. If they spent more time praising God and not nosing into the business of others, they might see God is in all of us. Anyone who says they know what God thinks is a lunatic and blasphemous. So keep it simple. If we are made in the image and likeness of God, God does not err. If you believe, just ask God to show you the way. And God will.

froggy12

_________________________
??

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#71080 - 12/20/06 05:49 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Daniel,

Welcome. You've definitely come to a place where you'll find a lot of caring support.

You've asked a mouthful of questions in those two. Many of us are or have been there asking the same ones. I believe that in many ways they are best answered on your own journey of discovery. I will say that in my opinion God is very real and really does love and care about his creation.

Can't help you on the gay issue as that one is definitely something you'll have to work with in your own time and way. I wish you the best with that, but would say that the more important issue could possibly be determining what in means to have committed relationship with someone you can love.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#71081 - 12/20/06 03:34 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
Hello, Daniel! Welcome Home!
What is being Gay? Well, for me, it is only the Blessing of being able to see (and judge) our world from the viewpoint of the outsider.
It has little to do with the physicality of genital sex; nothing to do with being able to set and elegant table or to memorize line of dialogue from Bette Davis movies.
In American culture today, the "majority" (white, straight, lower middle class) must learn to listen to the minority voices who can and must always point out when the Emperor has no clothes.
---
This may not directly address your question, but think about my response for a day or two. All the other related issues of queerdom will hopefully (eventually) sort of fall into place for you.
Much love, etc.,

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

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#71082 - 12/20/06 10:38 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
naturelover Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Oklahoma
Nature lover - Please read your PM regarding the posting policies!! Thank you.

Howard

_________________________
Naturelover

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#71083 - 12/21/06 02:12 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi, I thought maybe reading this could help.
The Science Of Sexual Orientation

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#71084 - 01/02/07 06:28 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
blueturtle Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Eastern Washington
Hello.
I have been reading the replys to "what is gay" but havent answered till now. I hope this reaches the responders. Thanks for the welcomes and insights. A lot there.

Froggy, thanks for the wise peceptions and even though I agree it hasnt trumped the brimstone crap. I'm logically aware of the "biblical interpretations" delema (more like war) and I have heard some sound and wise counter arguments to the religious condemnation. It hasnt changed my deep seated "false" perspective though. It dosent seem to reach that inner place where my shame and selfhatred live (or were created) which I think is where the religious fears have embedded themselves. I need to learn how to reach that spot and change my heart not just my head. Asking God is a good Idea and I have in so many ways. And will again-right now. Each time I hope I get clearer on what I'm asking for, more aware of myself and where i'm at and closer to surrendering it all. I dont know if thats how it works but it feels like theres something I'm holding on to. Seems I'm not letting God do his/her thing with me. A control thing? Or the healing is really happening - just under my radar and so0o0 slow... A wise friend(sponor)once told me that she was told by her "wise friend" (both far in their healing from MPD and abuse through AA and using the 12 steps) That fruit ripens slowly on the tree but it takes only a second to let go and drop when its ready. So I am trying to trust I'm in "the ripening process". when Im depressed thats hard.

John, The whole "committed relationship with someone I love" is a huge can of worms. I never think I'm well enough or That I would be too much of a downer for someone to hang out with. I'm not happy enough for love

There actually is someone that has sparked my interest. I however have been regressing. I'm sure its my sabotage reflex. I havent said anything to him about the "intrest" but somehow I think I've already messed it up.

George, The "outsider perspective" is one of those "gifts" I feel that comes with being "gay". I do think we have a greater capacity for a greater awareness. That dosent sound right. Everyone has the capacity. I think as a sexual minority I(we?)are more impervious to the cultural brainwash. Not all, but a lot of us anyway. (Not that I'm not brainwashed). That sounds nice actually. I wish I could wash my brain. Get rid of all these fears and crap from the abuse.

Clifford, Thanks for that CBS news article. That was really interesting.I didnt know so much research was being done. Expecially on the gay probabilities of a third son with no sisters born of left handed immigrant parents in a republican state. I jest. I am going to try and find the 60 minutes show it was in. It was actually inspiring to me for some reason. thanks

So yet another epic post/reply (I just saved 2/3rds of it so as not to torture you with too many of my whining insecurities all at once.) Theres just soo much to say. I guess it gets all bottled up in my self imposed isolation.

Thanks for your kindness, mucho gusto.
Daniel


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#71085 - 01/02/07 03:11 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
Daniel,

Emotion vs Intellect, which rules? (Fr Martin tapes). You have to love yourself first. Love is goodness, and you have goodness. When you accept (love) yourself then you can branch out with the love for another. Slowly. The old hormones are still flowing like sap in the spring, so just be careful.

froggy

_________________________
??

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#71086 - 01/07/07 05:59 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
abcd Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
Hello Blue Turtle,

I haven't been to this site in years and really don't check this site too often, but felt inspired to check back. I quickly read some things you wrote and I can relate--I think one of the hardest things was detangling my sexuality from the abuse. The sooner I figured that out the better--also the sooner I was able to reconcile my faith with my sexuality, the better. Rest assured that you're not alone. Feel free to look at this site...it is by no means a complete list, but it may prove helpful to find others or even just welcoming congregations. (www.christianlesbians.com) Congrats on finding this site. For me, it feels like night and day from when I first found this site. There are good people on here. Take it easy. God Bless.


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#71087 - 01/11/07 10:38 AM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Daniel, hope you are doing well. About this going to hell thing, how open are you to new idea's. WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY Just found this web site, looks interesting.

A while back I came across this web site that says some of the bible was mistranslated from the Greek bible, The Bible, Christianity, & Homosexuality I myself cannot tell you what is true you will have to determine that your self. Most of us follow the teaching of Jesus, did he say anything against homosexuality, surely he will if it is important to him. Something to think about.

Take care,
Clifford

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#71088 - 01/11/07 03:18 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
Nobbynobs Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 1286
Loc: Toronto
I stick to what Jesus said:

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

It doesn't matter if gays are sinners or not. We love them as we love everyone, and pray for them as we pray for everyone, and leave the judging to God. If we treat them badly or discriminate against them, the same standard will be used to judge us. Anyone who uses the words of the Bible to judge gays will find the words of the Bible used to judge them.

I know that the mainstream churches are really struggling with this issue, but I think they are too caught up in dogma. Jesus loves everyone, regardless of who they are. If we claim to follow Him, we follow his example. Simple as that.

_________________________
When you go up to the bell, ring it! Or don't go up to the bell.

- Mel Brooks

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#71089 - 01/13/07 11:32 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
duncanUK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 632
Hi Guys

I dont normally post here. But I felt I had to. You are right about god and jesus they love everyone.It is the church and the other religious leaders who have corrupted and violated the word of god.

When judgement day comes the lord will burn all of those who have corrupted his word. I believe that if we are all made is gods image then being gay is not at sin at all.

The real sinners of this world are the relgious institutions and the filthy rich. I recently had a conversation at work with someone who is heavily into god. I asked them a simple question. I asked them "would they help a poor homeless person on the street? would they stop to help?"

You can guess what they said "No!!!" I then said now if jesus was walking down that same street dont you think he would stop.

You see these people are hypocrits.

Duncan

_________________________
you dont see me. i am not really here. Its my fault.. all of it. I am to blame and no one else.

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#71090 - 01/20/07 09:40 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction
Galapogos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 110
Loc: usa
Hi Daniel,

I can relate to your situation and the topics you brought up in your post. (Long story short, I suffered CSA, I'm 40, gay, in the closet, never been in a relationship, never felt part of the "gay community" however it's definted)

Last yearI started a similar thread about what it means to be gay. Beyond the excitement of a sexual experience, what is it I'm seeking? There were a lot of replies, and then I found there was earlier post with even more.

I was sent to Lutheran sunday school and confirmation classes as a kid, but my parents weren't religious. I had a lot of guilt and shame around 13 or 14 when I realized I was different. I prayed and prayed not to like boys, not to be gay, but apparently god had other plans. I shouldn't be so sarcastic, sometimes it's tough.

The more I've learned about other religions, philosophy, and history, the more agnostic I become, and the less willing to debate the bible, or someones interpretation of it. I don't have any advice really, that's just my experience.

_________________________
Digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
--Peter Gabriel

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#138790 - 01/23/07 10:52 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction [Re: Galapogos]
froggy12 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 527
Loc: Marlboro, MA 01752
We are told that we are made in the image and likeness of God. Poor God. Or is it Good God! Or is God a projection of the super ego? I'll have an interesting chat when we meet.

froggy

_________________________
??

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#138902 - 01/24/07 08:31 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction [Re: blueturtle]
Bobby Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1287
Loc: Arizona
Okay, bt, I knew I shouldn't read any posts today. With something like this, I don't read any other replies. Usually I get so interested in what others have to say, that, by the time I'm finished reading, what I had to say doesn't matter any more. This one matters to me. Each time I write about it, I learn a little more about who I am. Often I'm surprised at some of the things I say.

The "gay thing" as I think of it, is one of the hardest parts for me, and I have spent a great deal of time and energy trying to find an answer. I, like you, have had very little (almost none) gay sexual experience. Recently, a trans-gendered friend helped me on this particular journey. We had met so that I could help her with her problems, and as is often the case, she ended up helping me with mine. The following is what I learned. As is also the case, what felt like an amazing and life-changing epiphany then, is not so life-changing now, as the feelings of the moment have worn off a bit.

Gay is not a thing. Gay or straight is not something that I am ever going to be. There will be no choice. There will be no decision. It doesn't matter whether or not I even act on it.....ever. I am. And my sexuality is part of who I am. It has no name. It just is. I will love whom I love....whoever comes along, whoever becomes a part of my life that I love. I will be open to love, if I can overcome everything that has happened to me....my abuse.....the society in which I learned labels and so-called morality. I will not label my sexuality, because, when I do, it becomes about my sexuality, and not about me. When I label my sexuality, I become uncomfortable and anxious and worry about whether or not it's right or wrong or moral or immoral and what my familty thinks and who I'm hurting and...... When I don't label it.....when it is just a natural part of who I am, then it doesn't threaten me. I can accept it for what it is.....me.....and it can't be separated out or named or any of that, because it isn't separate. And, when I love, it will not be a hetero or a homosexual loving. It will simply be loving.....the person that my whole being can do nothing but love.

Now, I know that's simplistic, and I know all of that will work in a perfect world, and that we don't live in that world. But you are good, bt. You are worthy of love, both the giving and the receiving. And society will find it necessary to label you. But you don't have to give into that. It won't be easy, but eventually you will just "know". And hopefully you know because no matter who that person happens to be, or what sex, you will have found the person in your life whom it is impossible not to love.

Bobby


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#139031 - 01/25/07 09:53 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction [Re: Bobby]
blueturtle Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Eastern Washington
Man, thanks for the responses

Granted the Bible and Bible thumpers are a BIG source of -i think- my rift between this sexuality thing and "God" thing....However i do believe the abuse has played a big part. Both are good at generating a motherload of shame about sex and sexuality-"straight" or "gay"... or anything in-between... or beyond.

I started reading the "what the bible says about homos" site and will keep doing so but its so hard to counter the bible mindset with this i think. The aramaic greek and sanskrit translation bits and history are compelling to me and i guess its my mind I'm trying to change not theirs. It left me wondering if a bunch of what is said there is true what a dupe job that book* has done on us as a society... *and the people wielding it. I wonder sometimes if its (the Bible) not more a propoganda tool used over centuries than a true path back to God. Ironically both probably. It is scary to base soo much importance and power onto one book. That in and of it self seems a bit idolitoristic to me.

I heard this woman(author) on NPR a few years back who started doing reasearch on the midevial witch trials - she fallowed where they began and the path that they took on the map as they spread. Then, I think, she ran across someone doing the same research with the printing press when it was brand spanking new, or somthing like that. The maps were practically Identical- with the printing press showing up first and then witch trials erupting after. She found miriads of copies of "flyers" that were spread to incite and scare the people- those free thinking women...ooooh.

My point here(and one of hers) is that the writen word can be inhearantly deceptive. Divorced from its speaker and his/her body language and proximity- and not allowing for questions and dialog, words alone can be easily seperated from truth and used to manipulate and or control others. i.e.Propoganda.(Obviousely the internet and chat room culture might be used to support this words dont always equal truth point)...BUT then, words can also be miracuoolas, beautiful and transforming in a positive sense(insert the classic knife, the killer and the cook metaphor here).

Ok again my overly dramatized point is that one persons (or websites) words dont exactly trump anothers or the Bibles. They are just more words. They CAN help point me in good or new directions.And I am greatful for ALL your suggestions and insight. BUT how do you know whats true? I need for "it" to somehow become my own experience for "it" to really change me or my mind. That is I guess what Im in the process of doing-I hope. Ive never been really great at "learning". My brain (and heart) i think has been frozen, or cross wired maybe, in the past and in my "coping behaviors", which has made changing and new insights and understandings come sooo sloowly.

For some poeple when they read the Bible, I have heard it changes them. An awakening of sorts. Thats great and I dont doubt them. I dont think its the Bible per-se though. I think its God and He/She just uses the Bible to get our attention-our focus. Other books and paths can do the same. Thats just what I believe. I am not drawn to the Bible personally. I am not really too fond of reading actually...I know, talk about sacreligious. Ive always been more tactile and experiential in nature. I do have lots of books. And I pop em open from time to time. Even the "most accurate" Bible used by the Jehova witnessed folk.

God I am such a wind bag. I need to go but never reached what I really wanted to say. I'll go with this though... I'd love to hear about other peoples experiences of how they have "changed" their minds and hearts-for the better. Expecially spiritual experiences- but if so, in laymans words, please. Dont get too churchy on me with the christian verbage. Id love to hear it, just from personal details of real experiences in your own language -even with Jesus, thats ok, would be awesome really. Whatever it is/was, maybe itd give me some hope and inspire me. Has anyone tried Hypnotherapy? Anything other than talking therapy? EMT? Anything alternative/new age-ee? What has given you hope? Who has inspired you?

Gotta really go now (multiple meanings this time) - no time for spell check. Have mercy on me. hasta - Daniel


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#139171 - 01/26/07 09:56 PM Re: what is "gay"?-w/introduction [Re: blueturtle]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Daniel,

My personal belief is that, just as the religious leaders did in Christ's time, many if not most of the religious leaders of today are more interested in what they can get for themselves out of this thing called religion than in representing the true nature of the Creator. After all, they Killed him back then. They're doing little better than than now.

So yes, It's God that works on our hearts and he'll use whatever means at his disposal including the Bible or any other thing, even our conscience, or the beauties of nature. Most of the time when men start preaching it usually works out to be counterproductive to God's purposes. Remember that Guy who pastored that huge church in Colorado till late last year? Made huge amounts of money, but was living a lie and destroying peoples faith as he did so. Seems he met his demise over the issue of homosexuality too, didn't he? Participating in that which he preached vociferously against? Creep!

Seems I remember someplace in the Old Testament where God told the prophet that he would be found in the "still, small, voice". I like that.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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