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#70207 - 05/26/06 09:27 PM Gay???
TrailofTears Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Central Kentucky
I was wondering, for those of you whose first sexual experience was abuse, how you know that you are gay as opposed to being conditioned by the abuse? How do you know that you not acting out sexually? I am predominately heterosexual, but find myself attracted to some men, but the focus is alway on the genitals, is abuse-specific and I am nearly always, humiliated and hurt by the things that I allow other men to do to me.
I was ready to come out of the closet as gay, just before I realized I had untreated abuse issues to deal with. On some level I wanted to be gay, so that I wouldn't have to face the reality of what had actually happened to me. And this is why I wonder how you know for sure if you are gay or not?
I will take the rest of my gender identity issues to another forum, but would appreciate any help I can get to understand myself better. Thanks!


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#70208 - 05/27/06 07:10 AM Re: Gay???
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Sexual orientation is about the gender of those who I fall in love with, not (necessarily) about the gender of those who I have genital sex with.

Some men are capable of functioning genitally in configurations which are circumstantial adaptations at odds with their essential orientation i.e. men in prison, and straight survivors acting out.

Wanting to be gay if you're not will no more make you gay than me wanting to be straight would make it so (because I am indeed gay).

Sex is about an act, orientation is a fundamental characteristic.

With that said, I'm also aware that for true bisexuals, the water is a lot muddier, but I have no experience to share in regards to that.


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#70209 - 05/29/06 02:29 PM Re: Gay???
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
For me, the egg came before the chicken.
I was gay before the abuse, during the abuse and after. This question was simply never an issue in my case.
Except, of course, for the 23 year detour through a marriage, fathering three children, and a full length active duty military career.
In your case, TofT, it would seem that issues of self esteem, self body image, and/or self worth are also mixed up with your questions about sexual orientation. Unravelling all that could take some time (quite a bit) and might be easier if you somehow could obtain the help of a therapist. I know that's not always practical or feasible but check out your local resources, some of which might be low cost or no cost public facilities.
I think that I am starting to ramble here, so will sign off with best wishes.
Be gentle and patient with yourself.
Love, etc.,

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

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#70210 - 05/29/06 03:18 PM Re: Gay???
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Shybear,

I am in agreement with your definition of gay vs. straight. Good job. You've put my basic concept of the subject into a succinctly wrapped word-package. Thanks for that.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#70211 - 05/29/06 09:20 PM Re: Gay???
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
You're welcome, John !

My "succinctly wrapped word-package" (LOVE the phrase ...) is the summation of hard-won wisdom based on an enormous amount of personal struggle with the issue.


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#70212 - 05/30/06 08:27 PM Re: Gay???
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
ToT,

I like the way ShyBear draws a distinction between sexual acts and sexuality. I would put it this way, though it just repeats what SB has said. Imagine sex with someone and thinking "this is great sex", as opposed to doing the same thing with someone else and thinking the whole time, "I love you".

I had an interesting conversation with a gay survivor recently, and he put it really well. I'll just turn what he said into questions. When you think of waking up on a happy morning and looking at the person beside you in bed, do you want to see a man or a woman? When you think of building your life together with someone, is it a man or a woman? When you think of sharing all your joy and tears, man or woman? Things like that.

But yes, how can one even address such questions as a survivor? Certainly abuse wrecks a boy's sense of sexual boundaries and orientation, and that makes it very difficult for him, as an adult, to build on such weak foundations.

In a way it's like trying to build a house with a general plan in mind, but having no expertise or experience and being able to use only what random materials happened to come to hand that day. What would the result be? Imagine your feeling when you realize that the only way forward is to tear down the house and start over? But start with what? How can one "rebuild" such a house?

There are ways out of this mess, but certainly I would urge recourse to a professional therapist if that is at all possible. I don't know what is available in your area, and perhaps therapy would be very expensive. But what you're talking about is sorting out your life - a pretty major priority!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#70213 - 05/31/06 02:57 PM Re: Gay???
scooter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 76
"On some level I wanted to be gay, so that I wouldn't have to face the reality of what had actually happened to me."

When memories come it's easier to frantically search for a fantasy. To make it not his body, but a male body that I admire. Then I can prove to myself how much control I am in, how it's something I want and could end it if I wanted to. And most importantly, then I don't have to feel the pain, shame, and guilt, and more and more, the anger.

I said in another post that I've labelled myself bi because I have to continue to live with the experience of being *&#%ed as a child. One of the ways I've done that is through fantasy. In reality I love women, I love my wife, and it's women that turn me on. Yet I have all this other mess to deal with. Maybe one day I'll be able to accept myself as heterosexual.

It is easier creating a mess of dealing with orientation than having to deal with the abuse. It's easier for the monkey mind to run abstracts of orientation through my head, and keep me running - than to stop and feel. I am always trying to avoid feeling, I hate stripping myself of the fantasies and letting the memories tear me apart, over and over again, until I am either stronger or driven completely insane. I hate to feel, but I need to to be alive.

My wife has a phrase that she offered for me to use and I offer it to you - I apologize for the profanity, but every time I'm messed up I just say, "this fckng sucks." Maybe some day I'll look back and say what a journey, but I'm not there yet and so I just have to continue with the awareness that it's not easy and it won't be. And remember that "life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved."


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#70214 - 06/01/06 06:12 PM Re: Gay???
TrailofTears Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Central Kentucky
In practice I have been straight, Bi, gay and everything inbetween. I HATE labels!!! But I know that I prefer women and am just afraid of them because of things I was told during the years of abuse. And I can also be Bi if I choose, but almost all of those relationships are about reliving the abuse or strictly genital sex and are unhappy affairs. I also fall into some of the Gay stereotypes, I like Elton John, Cher, Celine Dion, etc. and on and on, and don't care who knows it or what they think about it. After all is said and done, I suppose I am still human and this may be the most important lesson I am learning throughout all of this "searching". Thank you all for your help!!!
ToT


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#70215 - 06/01/06 07:19 PM Re: Gay???
Jas21 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 14
Loc: Florida
there is so much i want to say about all of this, but i'm way too overwhelmed at the moment to even know how to start


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#70216 - 06/05/06 03:27 PM Re: Gay???
Trevor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 778
Loc: Rhode Island
my first time was with another guy and it was abuse i guess, i didnt like it much. but then it kept happening and i got used to it and then started liking it, i think or i think maybe i just talked myself into liking it so it would be so bad when it happened? i havent figured that out yet. but then i was with a girl and it was just OK and i thought i liked being with guys better. but im still not sure. i dont know if its cuz of what happened from an early age or if i was just born this way or what.
i guess i like both.
sorry if this is way off from the original message, i start typing (or talking) sometimes and just cant stop.
thanks for reading

trevor

_________________________
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon. You look so precious.

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#70217 - 06/08/06 06:40 PM Re: Gay???
Heartonfire Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Montreal Canada
Dear God Almighty and Mother Earth!

What you wrote SCooter, sums up my experience like no other!!
I wonder... when we let ourselves relax and feel most deeply, and pass through the hells which were imprinted on our bodies and in our heads... As it all arises... the doubt, betrayal, rage, holding on... to the only thing there is left... when all your ego powers were stripped... that maybe the lesson in all this is that all we are and all we have left is... one choice... to love or not to love, ourselves and others. We are free to make that choice. We have each been given a body, with memories, desires, orientations, character traits, and talents... we have all the choices to make about how we develope ourselves from all that we already are...
And like Roadrunner said, we can't make a house on poor foundations. So, we make all sorts of choices and when we start to re-claim who we already are and what we have been through, trully accept ourselves, then the foundation begins to firm up and our choices lead to sustainable buidlings... though we (or rather I) know that I have power and choice to construct my life the way I want at that same time as I also have choice to accept or deny who I am and how I have lived.

I hope I am not being too abstract here for you guys. I am just piecing all of me together and seeing a bigger picture emerge... embracing more of me: a desire to cross dress to be like the women who raised me and sheltered me, to grab cocks to get closer to men and a fantasy to hurt men and boys like I was hurt and how this does violence to us all (in fantasy, expressed and liberated from my soul recently), a desire to be fucked by a man uncovered as a desire to be recognized and loved, desperation to please developed as a gift to be of service and to share my power to recognize others.
Life seems so interesting on this once painfully rocky and trecherous road... many bumps to navigate and storms to wade but love is all around and there is trust in me. I wish you all well.
David-Jan

_________________________
Heart on Fire

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#70218 - 06/09/06 02:36 AM Re: Gay???
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brothers,

What I read in all these posts is the story of confusion that so often affects a boy after the abuse ends. I have already said what I wanted to express above, but here I just want to stress two things.

First, there is nothing weird or fucked up about this confusion. It hit us at a young age when we were being tricked and used as toys to gratify someone else. How could that not be devastating?

The other point is that however it all works out we WILL be okay. Straight, gay, somewhere in between? Fine. We have to be true to ourselves and decide where our happiness lies. On an issue as vital and personal as sexuality, our task certainly is not to meet the expectations of others.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#70219 - 06/11/06 11:43 AM Re: Gay???
Matt Wildbore Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3
My father was sexually abused.

My relationship with him as a child was @#$%%ed up.

I ended up being gay and I think part of that is about male to male intimacy.

Or maybe its genetic and I don't have to think about it 'cos it's no one's fault....

Sexual acts animals can do as well as humans. Bulls have sex with bulls occasionally. And probably it's just about an available warm dark hole if only we could get inside their minds.....

Being gay in your head as opposed to your groin I think is about who you choose to experience the feeling of intimacy with and how cared for you feel through that.

I am gay and so view it from that perspective only. Still not really sure about what is my absolute truth. I think it being about genetics would be easier.

What I am sure about is that at my most vulnerable times I ache for the strength and protection of my father's arms which were never there.


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#70220 - 06/11/06 05:20 PM Re: Gay???
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Matt and all,

I've often wondered how many gay men actually had a loving and supportive relationship with their father when they were growing up. I believe that what you described
Quote:
What I am sure about is that at my most vulnerable times I ache for the strength and protection of my father's arms which were never there.
is at least a portion of the whole dynamic on same sex orientation for some gay individuals, but not the whole picture by any means. I believe there is also genetics, sexual abuse related issues, and personal choice, among other things, that also play a part. Further, I believe that for each individual it is different. For some, it may be only one dynamic, where for others, a combination of 2 or more.

Just one man's opinion.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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