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#69833 - 02/14/06 12:20 PM Re: What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Quote:
Originally posted by markgreyblue:
I must admit Dewey - your line of questions really pisses me off -

If you're looking for something to hate about youself I will take no part in that
On the contrary, Mark, I am looking for same thing as John above:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hanginon:
I think I am in a similar place. I don't hate myself nor do I want to but I too am looking for meaning about being gay beyond sex.
I am looking for meaning beyond that which obviously defines gay people (attraction to the same sex). At the risk of offending people for an analogy - and please know I mean NO offense whatsoever - I look at this as similar to what it means to be an African American beyond skin color, for to believe that skin tone is all that makes one African American is superficial, both literally and figuratively.

Does that make any more sense?


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#69834 - 02/14/06 01:34 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
sorry guys

i projected a period of self loathing out there - that was back when --

i remembered you were not feeling so good - so i imagined - whatever erroneously -

can i share an article with you both?
that i love
i wish somehow i could get it to you - it's a scan since the article was on paper-

it's
an article from gay magazine "fab"
that talks of gay friendship -
i love it -

it's wonderful I think -

I am not sure where to put it -

so you can download it -
M

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69835 - 02/14/06 01:50 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
We need more positive places to reflect on what "gay" means, exactly. Not negatively, but what purpose can we serve in a balanced and just world. I think the story of Silo and Roy (the gay penguins) moves us in that direction.

--------------

i think we should not focus on a role but rather ourselves - as just people who happen to be gay -

the US I fear - delivers such a message of hatred towards us - that we have to defend our sexuality -

i believe -
we are just men - who happen to be gay - we should not have to prop up our identity - with defenses - or perhaps stereotypical behavior
- we are dewey- hanginon -and mark

and we come from x place - studied x subject -
worked x job - believe in x values -
did x goofy things to learn x life lessons -
married or didn't the right guy - and so on..

does this make sense?

or is it that you are just curious?

I feel like there are esteem issues here -
when in the best possible world - they are not about us - but about those not supporting us -

we are amongst the most talented
intelligent -
and dedicated workers - crafts people -

and innovators -

powerful statesmen et al... -

I wish the article could get to you-

gay people are unique -

our friends are our family -

we create bonds like no other group

we have rejuvenate communities because of our caring
and perhaps this unity -

there's a lot out there! -
and we give back usually in taxes et al more than any other group!

\:\)
m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69836 - 02/14/06 02:21 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
if you take the example of Wilton Manors -
in Fort Lauderdale - just a short while ago
was a crack den neighborhood -

now it is the most econimically vibrant part of fort lauderdale -

also the cops there - love us - in the aspect of
them saying - we hardly have any need to deal with things from our community(s)

we are generally peaceful law abiding -

i would say conservers of culture -

and expansive thinkers -

we aren't destructive people

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69837 - 02/14/06 02:30 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I know loving yourself and being proud of yourself is extremely important -

our identities - are hugely needed for everyone not just homosexuals -

sadly the US culture is not a great place to be -

I would say that - a good book to read is -

"the four agreements" life - is not about a role -
or about just now -

there are so many ways to identify ourselves-

heritage - history - culture - sexuality - likes -hobbies -

beliefs - politics -

a figure - head -

the royal family -here that is -
the peace and stablity day to day -

and they way we get to know how we respond to things and how well we are caretaking of our 'charges' and ourselves -

not masochistic - but fair - moderate - life affirming -

I suppose this may seem like a rant -

i guess - i still

think if society permitted full rights in the US -
this conversation - would not be needed -

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69838 - 02/14/06 02:36 PM Re: What does it mean?
hanginon Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 89
Loc: sarasota, fl
MGB,
You did two things just now - argued for individual identies for gay people, and then turned around and lumped us all together to come up with a positive image for us.

I think we are all on the same page - looking for a way to be individuals (ie, not fit squarely into the lisping, limp wristed stereotypes so often portrayed in movies)...while finding a positive group identity that carves out a meaningful place for us (revitalizing neighborhoods is one that we are known for...)

we are collectively and individually an important part of society and that's the truth. without us what would the world really look like?

_________________________
walker, there is no path, you make a path as you go...

(caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar...)

Antonio Machado

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#69839 - 02/14/06 03:36 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Hey guys:

Wow, Dewey, clearly a great thread cuz you've pulled out some pretty strong responses in a real short time. All any of us can do is speak to this from our own experience, which is not the same as anyone else's. So, not better, not worse, just different. Here goes.

Dewey, being 'gay' has traditionally carried with it some implications of cultural as well as behavioral differences for those who so identify. This has been true since at least the nineteenth century, when groups of 'urnings' or 'uranians' (I love those names!) started categorizing their same-sex attraction as a facet not only of behavior, but of personhood, as a part of who they were as men and women. It is not clear that these folks were the first in history to do so, only that this is sort of where the 'modern' part of the story picks up.

In the twentieth century, this socialized aspect lent itself to a variety of movements that never really did coalesce into a single form of what it meant to be 'gay' besides the behavioral part. Even Kinsey's famous 0-6 scale is a little confused, since it evaluates both behavior and fantasy in charting an individual's place on the hetero-homo continuum. Nicely, however, all this socialized aspect did have a pay-off in political terms -- and you see the results everyday in the papers as countries around the world (including the U.S. and Canada, of course) grapple with what to do about people who aren't heterosexual.

Dewey, in my own life I count among my gay friends people who are or have been CIA operatives, policemen, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, accountants, computer professionals of many kinds, secretaries, hair dressers, decorators, interior designers, barbers, psychologists, psychiatrists, fashion designers, firefighters, financial planners, and career armed forces personnel from all service branches in both the enlisted and officer ranks. The only things I can say that these men share in common is, 1) yes, the attraction to other men, but also 2) a need to have some number of friends who know them for who they are, and by "who they are" I mean their full identity, including their same-sex desires. There really isn't a lot more to it than that.

There's a lot of "gay" culture that makes it into the media, and that's nice when it means we get to see happy married couples with kids, or out single guys getting ahead in the world; it's less nice when it means we get to see what happens to the Matthew Shepards and Billy Jack Gaithers of this world. You can also see a lot of the surface of "gay" culture walking down certain streets of big cities -- the bars and bookstores and what-not. Nowadays, even out here in the suburbs, you can see a lot of the surface just, like, at the supermarket on Saturday afternoons when there seems to be as many same-sex as opposite-sex couples pushing grocery carts. Suburbia. Yawn.

So, Dewey, yeah, there's more to being "gay" than just the same-sex attraction. But, and this is a huge but, so I'm going to repeat it in capital letters

BUT

You, Dewey2k aka Dwayne, get to choose and make that "more than the attraction" part yourself. With a little help from your friends. And neighbors. And family.

Good luck, man.

{Dewey}

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

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#69840 - 02/14/06 03:40 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
You did two things just now - argued for individual identies for gay people, and then turned around and lumped us all together to come up with a positive image for us.

are you angry with my arguments?

or do you like them - your response seems to be favorable - my mind is tired at this point -
i am not so easily discerning -

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69841 - 02/14/06 03:42 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
hey can someone give me an email that i can distribut this article too -

I wish there were a blind - email distribution so that - we wouldn't break the rules but also share info - this article -

ok - i just thinks it 'spot on'

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69842 - 02/14/06 03:57 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Mark,

Good heavens, no, I'm not angry with your arguments. The idea is that being a part of a culture is something we can choose to do uncritically -- we can accept what we see around us and merge ourselves with that identity; we can choose to do it piece-meal -- i.e., we can take the parts we like and want and need and merge those with our identities; and we can also do it in a way that says "Hey, I'm going to change this culture by being a part of it because I'm different from what I see around me and I'm not going to change myself just to fit in." There's a culture side/There's an individual side. Connection/Individual Story. Kind of circular, eh?

And Mark, regarding David Souter,
Quote:
Souter's engaging personality explains his quick friendship with fellow justices. As one of the few people unoffended by Scalia's verbal argumentation style, Souter has become a good friend with the conservative justice despite the fact that they often clash on controversial issues. Souter has maintained his simple, bachelor lifestyle. He brings his own lunch, consisting of apples and yogurt, to work everyday and lives in an undecorated apartment. He still returns home to Weare during the summer breaks where he climbs the local mountains and visits his mother.
from http://www.oyez.org, the Multi-Media Supreme Court Experience

Not every 60-plus-year-old bachelor who lunches on apples and yogurt and goes home to his mother every summer between Supreme Court sittings is necessarily gay. Hee. Ha. Ho. Okay, okay, Justice Souter just confuses the hell out of me.

\:\)

{Mark} {Dewey} {Hanginon}

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

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