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#69823 - 02/14/06 05:09 AM What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I guess this is where to put this...

I know that there has been a thread similar to this before, but this is something I've been struggling with for a while.

After figuring out my sexuality, I've been trying to figure out what that means, exactly, beyond being attracted to men.

I'm not even sure there IS any particular meaning other than as a label of convenience.

Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.


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#69824 - 02/14/06 05:33 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
i am not sure why there is a need to look for putting a meaning on being physically attracted to men -

society in some countries supports us and so it is normalized -and others it is not -yet - and so there may be a sense of illegitmacy - which is far from the truth -

it means nothing more than that we are -

and your romantic life is but a part of your life -

who you date - or marry is just a part of you and your life -

we do not have a big socio- historical - cutlural - acknowldedgement of gayness -
in a way that supports the vast majority of us
in our awakening to ourselves and in our daily life - but-

it's gotten a lot better-

staying happy in life and surviving - and working and loving - are still the most important challenges we have just like any others -

so ((((dewey))))

embrace yourself it's ok!
m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69825 - 02/14/06 08:53 AM Re: What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Mark, all,

Just to clarify the question, what does being gay mean ASIDE from being attracted to men? Anything in particular?


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#69826 - 02/14/06 10:31 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I don't know what you mean?

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69827 - 02/14/06 10:35 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
historically we have been a very creative and productive part of society

Alexander the Great - who first spread culture and theatre around the mediterranean and europe-

leonardo da vinci

michelangelo

william shakespeare

ian mckellen

abraham lincoln

the list goes on....

you can be very proud of yourself for being
part of distinguished list of
contributors to our society,
history, culture, and everyone's lives.

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69828 - 02/14/06 10:36 AM Re: What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Maybe I don't know how to frame the question correctly. I'll come back to this.


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#69829 - 02/14/06 10:40 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
Socrates,

Nureyev

James Dean

countless business people, executives

David Souter - one of the US Supreme court justices.

amd so on....

Look it up in an encyclopedia britannica .

I am serious.

M

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69830 - 02/14/06 10:42 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
and for athletes like yourself -
there are a huge huge number -

Carl Lewis

Greg Louganis

all walks of life...

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69831 - 02/14/06 11:03 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I must admit Dewey - your line of questions really pisses me off -

If you're looking for something to hate about youself I will take no part in that

-

that is not a healing or part of a healing attitude -

it's part of the abuse mentality that was laid upon us -

- if you are interested in gender studies or gay studies -

the San Francisco Publice library has a marvelous and one of the first of it's kind gay studies section -a big beautiful section of the library -

that you can go to and look at - and learn - as much as you need -

peace dude -

mark

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69832 - 02/14/06 11:57 AM Re: What does it mean?
hanginon Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 89
Loc: sarasota, fl
Mark, it seems you took things to a dark side when in fact, I think Dewey is looking for something to love about his gayness beyond the sexuality part of it.

I think I am in a similar place. I don't hate myself nor do I want to but I too am looking for meaning about being gay beyond sex.

Since I work in the cultural/historical arena (museums) I have been adamant about providing more opportunities provide gay audiences - both in and out of the closet - more positive messages about what gay life can be.

I am working toward (I think, though I don't know this for sure yet) helping to establish a more significant presence for GLBT history and culture than the SF library section. I envision a place that addresses how societies around the world and historically have dealt with queer communities ("queer" by the way, is not meant to be negative - it's an acceptable term in academia).

Anyway, seems to me the list that MGB started is a key to finding a way to embrace our community of gay men historically and that is helpful.

We need more positive places to reflect on what "gay" means, exactly. Not negatively, but what purpose can we serve in a balanced and just world. I think the story of Silo and Roy (the gay penguins) moves us in that direction.

Best,
john

_________________________
walker, there is no path, you make a path as you go...

(caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar...)

Antonio Machado

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#69833 - 02/14/06 12:20 PM Re: What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Quote:
Originally posted by markgreyblue:
I must admit Dewey - your line of questions really pisses me off -

If you're looking for something to hate about youself I will take no part in that
On the contrary, Mark, I am looking for same thing as John above:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hanginon:
I think I am in a similar place. I don't hate myself nor do I want to but I too am looking for meaning about being gay beyond sex.
I am looking for meaning beyond that which obviously defines gay people (attraction to the same sex). At the risk of offending people for an analogy - and please know I mean NO offense whatsoever - I look at this as similar to what it means to be an African American beyond skin color, for to believe that skin tone is all that makes one African American is superficial, both literally and figuratively.

Does that make any more sense?


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#69834 - 02/14/06 01:34 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
sorry guys

i projected a period of self loathing out there - that was back when --

i remembered you were not feeling so good - so i imagined - whatever erroneously -

can i share an article with you both?
that i love
i wish somehow i could get it to you - it's a scan since the article was on paper-

it's
an article from gay magazine "fab"
that talks of gay friendship -
i love it -

it's wonderful I think -

I am not sure where to put it -

so you can download it -
M

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69835 - 02/14/06 01:50 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
We need more positive places to reflect on what "gay" means, exactly. Not negatively, but what purpose can we serve in a balanced and just world. I think the story of Silo and Roy (the gay penguins) moves us in that direction.

--------------

i think we should not focus on a role but rather ourselves - as just people who happen to be gay -

the US I fear - delivers such a message of hatred towards us - that we have to defend our sexuality -

i believe -
we are just men - who happen to be gay - we should not have to prop up our identity - with defenses - or perhaps stereotypical behavior
- we are dewey- hanginon -and mark

and we come from x place - studied x subject -
worked x job - believe in x values -
did x goofy things to learn x life lessons -
married or didn't the right guy - and so on..

does this make sense?

or is it that you are just curious?

I feel like there are esteem issues here -
when in the best possible world - they are not about us - but about those not supporting us -

we are amongst the most talented
intelligent -
and dedicated workers - crafts people -

and innovators -

powerful statesmen et al... -

I wish the article could get to you-

gay people are unique -

our friends are our family -

we create bonds like no other group

we have rejuvenate communities because of our caring
and perhaps this unity -

there's a lot out there! -
and we give back usually in taxes et al more than any other group!

\:\)
m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69836 - 02/14/06 02:21 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
if you take the example of Wilton Manors -
in Fort Lauderdale - just a short while ago
was a crack den neighborhood -

now it is the most econimically vibrant part of fort lauderdale -

also the cops there - love us - in the aspect of
them saying - we hardly have any need to deal with things from our community(s)

we are generally peaceful law abiding -

i would say conservers of culture -

and expansive thinkers -

we aren't destructive people

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69837 - 02/14/06 02:30 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I know loving yourself and being proud of yourself is extremely important -

our identities - are hugely needed for everyone not just homosexuals -

sadly the US culture is not a great place to be -

I would say that - a good book to read is -

"the four agreements" life - is not about a role -
or about just now -

there are so many ways to identify ourselves-

heritage - history - culture - sexuality - likes -hobbies -

beliefs - politics -

a figure - head -

the royal family -here that is -
the peace and stablity day to day -

and they way we get to know how we respond to things and how well we are caretaking of our 'charges' and ourselves -

not masochistic - but fair - moderate - life affirming -

I suppose this may seem like a rant -

i guess - i still

think if society permitted full rights in the US -
this conversation - would not be needed -

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69838 - 02/14/06 02:36 PM Re: What does it mean?
hanginon Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 89
Loc: sarasota, fl
MGB,
You did two things just now - argued for individual identies for gay people, and then turned around and lumped us all together to come up with a positive image for us.

I think we are all on the same page - looking for a way to be individuals (ie, not fit squarely into the lisping, limp wristed stereotypes so often portrayed in movies)...while finding a positive group identity that carves out a meaningful place for us (revitalizing neighborhoods is one that we are known for...)

we are collectively and individually an important part of society and that's the truth. without us what would the world really look like?

_________________________
walker, there is no path, you make a path as you go...

(caminante, no hay camino, se hace camino al andar...)

Antonio Machado

Top
#69839 - 02/14/06 03:36 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Hey guys:

Wow, Dewey, clearly a great thread cuz you've pulled out some pretty strong responses in a real short time. All any of us can do is speak to this from our own experience, which is not the same as anyone else's. So, not better, not worse, just different. Here goes.

Dewey, being 'gay' has traditionally carried with it some implications of cultural as well as behavioral differences for those who so identify. This has been true since at least the nineteenth century, when groups of 'urnings' or 'uranians' (I love those names!) started categorizing their same-sex attraction as a facet not only of behavior, but of personhood, as a part of who they were as men and women. It is not clear that these folks were the first in history to do so, only that this is sort of where the 'modern' part of the story picks up.

In the twentieth century, this socialized aspect lent itself to a variety of movements that never really did coalesce into a single form of what it meant to be 'gay' besides the behavioral part. Even Kinsey's famous 0-6 scale is a little confused, since it evaluates both behavior and fantasy in charting an individual's place on the hetero-homo continuum. Nicely, however, all this socialized aspect did have a pay-off in political terms -- and you see the results everyday in the papers as countries around the world (including the U.S. and Canada, of course) grapple with what to do about people who aren't heterosexual.

Dewey, in my own life I count among my gay friends people who are or have been CIA operatives, policemen, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, accountants, computer professionals of many kinds, secretaries, hair dressers, decorators, interior designers, barbers, psychologists, psychiatrists, fashion designers, firefighters, financial planners, and career armed forces personnel from all service branches in both the enlisted and officer ranks. The only things I can say that these men share in common is, 1) yes, the attraction to other men, but also 2) a need to have some number of friends who know them for who they are, and by "who they are" I mean their full identity, including their same-sex desires. There really isn't a lot more to it than that.

There's a lot of "gay" culture that makes it into the media, and that's nice when it means we get to see happy married couples with kids, or out single guys getting ahead in the world; it's less nice when it means we get to see what happens to the Matthew Shepards and Billy Jack Gaithers of this world. You can also see a lot of the surface of "gay" culture walking down certain streets of big cities -- the bars and bookstores and what-not. Nowadays, even out here in the suburbs, you can see a lot of the surface just, like, at the supermarket on Saturday afternoons when there seems to be as many same-sex as opposite-sex couples pushing grocery carts. Suburbia. Yawn.

So, Dewey, yeah, there's more to being "gay" than just the same-sex attraction. But, and this is a huge but, so I'm going to repeat it in capital letters

BUT

You, Dewey2k aka Dwayne, get to choose and make that "more than the attraction" part yourself. With a little help from your friends. And neighbors. And family.

Good luck, man.

{Dewey}

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

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#69840 - 02/14/06 03:40 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
You did two things just now - argued for individual identies for gay people, and then turned around and lumped us all together to come up with a positive image for us.

are you angry with my arguments?

or do you like them - your response seems to be favorable - my mind is tired at this point -
i am not so easily discerning -

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69841 - 02/14/06 03:42 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
hey can someone give me an email that i can distribut this article too -

I wish there were a blind - email distribution so that - we wouldn't break the rules but also share info - this article -

ok - i just thinks it 'spot on'

m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69842 - 02/14/06 03:57 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Mark,

Good heavens, no, I'm not angry with your arguments. The idea is that being a part of a culture is something we can choose to do uncritically -- we can accept what we see around us and merge ourselves with that identity; we can choose to do it piece-meal -- i.e., we can take the parts we like and want and need and merge those with our identities; and we can also do it in a way that says "Hey, I'm going to change this culture by being a part of it because I'm different from what I see around me and I'm not going to change myself just to fit in." There's a culture side/There's an individual side. Connection/Individual Story. Kind of circular, eh?

And Mark, regarding David Souter,
Quote:
Souter's engaging personality explains his quick friendship with fellow justices. As one of the few people unoffended by Scalia's verbal argumentation style, Souter has become a good friend with the conservative justice despite the fact that they often clash on controversial issues. Souter has maintained his simple, bachelor lifestyle. He brings his own lunch, consisting of apples and yogurt, to work everyday and lives in an undecorated apartment. He still returns home to Weare during the summer breaks where he climbs the local mountains and visits his mother.
from http://www.oyez.org, the Multi-Media Supreme Court Experience

Not every 60-plus-year-old bachelor who lunches on apples and yogurt and goes home to his mother every summer between Supreme Court sittings is necessarily gay. Hee. Ha. Ho. Okay, okay, Justice Souter just confuses the hell out of me.

\:\)

{Mark} {Dewey} {Hanginon}

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

Top
#69843 - 02/14/06 04:01 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
John - it was hanginon who wrote that quote that I took - I was asking hangin on -

but thanks tho -

actually i have heard that Souter is gay -

but again - hearsay it is -

I haven't well - no proof that is
m

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69844 - 02/14/06 04:02 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
sorry i was bordering on the cheap punch line

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69845 - 02/14/06 04:07 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Mark,

Hearsay is evidence, it's just not generally admissible.

\:\)

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

Top
#69846 - 02/14/06 05:13 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
OK, one further Supreme Court digression. I love this story. Following quote is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Franklin_Powell,_Jr. :
Quote:
Bowers v. Hardwick
Powell was the swing vote in Bowers v. Hardwick, opting to go with the majority ruling which upheld Georgia's sodomy laws. He was reportedly distressed over how to vote. A conservative clerk advised him to uphold the ban, and Powell, who believed he had never met a gay person (not realizing that one of his own clerks was a closeted homosexual), voted to uphold Georgia's law, though Powell in a concurring opinion expressed concern at the length of the prison terms prescribed by the law. [1]

In 1990, after his retirement from the Court, he said, "I think I made a mistake in the Hardwick case," marking one of the few times a justice expressed regret for one of his previous votes.
OK, so Powell retired, and Pres. George Bush I tried to fill his seat unsuccessfully first with Robert Bork (who was rejected after confirmation hearings), then with Douglas Ginsburg (who withdrew his nomination after it was learned he'd smoked dope as a student). Finally, George I came up with Anthony Kennedy. So, the man who could have kept Bowers v Hardwick from becoming law in the first place was replaced by the man who wrote the majority decision overruling Bowers v. Hardwick. Irony is just sooooooooo delicious sometimes, as is poetic justice.

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

Top
#69847 - 02/14/06 07:07 PM Re: What does it mean?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I am still trying to figure this case out. Good thing I never became a lawyer! ;\)

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#69848 - 02/14/06 08:56 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Dewey,

Bringing myself back on-thread, you have said you're struggling what, if anything a same-sex attraction means beyond same-sex behavior. I guess my somewhat windy answer boils down to: whatever you want it to. If you want to be the least "gay" guy in the world, you've got plenty of brothers out there to be a not-gay-same-sex-loving man. Such folk do, indeed, exist in real life and not just in Brokeback Mountain. If you want something more, that's an option, too, but the key is you, and what you want.

{{{{again, Dwayne}}}}

John

PS: Mark notes that you're a sportsman. One of my gay D.C. cop friends is an ex-AAA ball-player, and now rodeos...there's a lot of options, dude.

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

Top
#69849 - 02/15/06 07:56 AM Re: What does it mean?
Dewey2k Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I guess the answer to my question is there is no specific answer, or the answers vary as much as individuals do.

Thanks for the input.


Top
#69850 - 02/15/06 11:26 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I think Gertrude Stein said something very much like that Dewey.

Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas - the most famous Lebanese Authors/couple (well in the 20th Century)

\:\)

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69851 - 02/15/06 02:34 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
So, like, if Gertrude and Alice were Lebanese, does that mean Danny Thomas was Lesbian?

;\)

John

_________________________
Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

Top
#69852 - 02/15/06 06:12 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I think he was transvestite

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69853 - 02/15/06 06:13 PM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
:p

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



Top
#69854 - 02/15/06 10:17 PM Re: What does it mean?
Galapogos Offline
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 110
Loc: usa
It was interesting to see this post, I started a similar thread awhile back, 'what does it mean to be gay'? outside of physical attraction. I don't think there's a definitive answer.

Once I chatted with a guy online for awhile about being gay. He emailed me a sort of gay cliffs notes. It included a list of movies to rent ("All About Eve" "Stepford Wives" etc) books to read on art, design, fashion, etc, music to buy, where to get clothes, etc. It was pretty specfic, but I couldn't really relate to it. Judy Garland?? Okay, she had a nice voice, but I don't get the fascination.

And, yes, I've read up on gay history, Stonewall, etc. I get that drag queens were on the frontlines at the time because they were so visible. But (today) I can't relate to the drag queen dressed as a nun with a strap-on dildo riding in the pride parade. I understand they may be expressing who they are, and their feelings toward organized religion, but it seems juvenile.

I think the definition of gay culture, and gay identity, keeps changing over time, if it can be defined at all.

(David Souter, really? ---Also, Sulu, er George Takei, came out recently)

_________________________
Digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
--Peter Gabriel

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#69855 - 02/15/06 10:24 PM Re: What does it mean?
Galapogos Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 110
Loc: usa
Re-reading my post it sounds like a rant about drag queens. Sorry if it came across that way. I think if you had gay men from different generations define gay culture you'd get different de>
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Digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
--Peter Gabriel

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#69856 - 02/15/06 11:24 PM Re: What does it mean?
johnsurvived Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/20/05
Posts: 332
Loc: Arlington, Virginia
Galapogos,

Good ramble. Thanks.

John

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Take for us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards; for our vines have tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

But let justice roll down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

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#69857 - 02/16/06 01:45 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
another cool thing about Canada
besides - gau marriage -

OUT TV - the gay channel - nobody really watches -it's struggling because - gay life is so integrated and normal - there isn't the need for that here -

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"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69858 - 02/16/06 01:46 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
'gay marriage'

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69859 - 02/16/06 01:48 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
also - i am proud - approximately 1/5th the population is gay and lesbian! \:\)

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69860 - 02/16/06 01:49 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
around 600,000!

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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#69861 - 02/16/06 01:49 AM Re: What does it mean?
markgreyblue Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 5400
Loc: Pasadena, CA
I think - I could be wrong - I am tired - and I am taking this thread to a weird place -whoops
mistake

_________________________
"...do not look outside yourself for the leader."
-wisdom of the hopi elders

"...the sign of a true leader is service..." - anonymous



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