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#69435 - 12/07/05 03:32 PM Talking to a friend
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
I was talking to a friend of mine while we were digging a new area in the garden.

It was sort of the 'here's how the early part of my life happened', you know, mom, dad, leaving home and all that stuff.

We've been dating for a couple of months and he knows that I come to the MS site and that I'm somewhat involved with the organization.

Anyway, he had told me quite a bit about his early life- parents, grandparents and all. So I was sort of giving a brief narrative of how I left home at the age of 15.

He asked if I was sexually active as a gay guy when I was a teen and leaving home. I replied that I had become sexually involved with an older man which was part of the how and why I left home so young.

My friend asked me a fairly straight forward question that I think reflects the common attitude towards gay sex with younger guys.

He said "Well, was it a loving type of sexual relationship?".

My response was,

"I don't want to talk about that any more right now."

He was OK with that.

And so was I.

I guess.

Thanks,

Danny

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#69436 - 12/07/05 06:06 PM Re: Talking to a friend
Nathan LaChine Offline
Webmaster
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 5378
Loc: Washington State
Danny,

It still seems that some people view boys as very sexual. That all boys want are sex sex sex. I have heard how lucky 11, 12,13 year old boys are to have sex with their older babysitters, friends, etc. I would have to say they are something other then lucky.

IN time people will learn and change, it is a slow process.

Nathan


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#69437 - 12/08/05 04:28 PM Re: Talking to a friend
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
Wow! Stirring up a lot of old stuff here. "Was it a loving sexual relationship?"
My first response is that the question posits an oxymoron (in terms of teen sex with older men). I tell myself that it can never be "loving" to burden a child with this responsibility and potentially life altering psychological bombshell -- setting aside for the moment all questions of physical (or emotional) force, coercion or violence.
Another inner voice says, "well, sometimes maybe there might be some form of "love" or "caring" involved, but even so, at the very least it sure as hell was irresponsible, exploitative, and grossly inappropriate.
A third voice, very quietly, tries to remind me that as an 11, 12, 13 year old boy, my mind sure seemed fixated nearly full time on matters below the waist.
Where is the "truth"? Probably in a slightly different place for each of us. But I look forward with great interest to seeing other responses.
Love, etc.,

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

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#69438 - 12/09/05 05:38 AM Re: Talking to a friend
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Danny,

I respect your feelings of not wanting to discuss it - sometimes I have the opportunity to say something on ths subject but the time is not right. You were working with flowers, a great love of yours, and you decided that this break was more important to you than plunging into abuse issues yet again.

I can imagine LOTS of situations where I would have done the same. But in a situation where the circumstances were right and I had the emotional reserves for a discussion I would have said something like this (I hope!!!): Love means sharing between two people who know what they are doing. When an adult/child relationship becomes sexual it isn't sharing anymore; it's the adult exploiting the trust and innocence of the child.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#69439 - 12/11/05 03:41 AM Re: Talking to a friend
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Danny that poem I had read as part of my english class, a long time ago.

Good to hear from you, I am seeing someone too.

I hope we get a chance to catch up.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#69440 - 12/15/05 04:17 AM Re: Talking to a friend
cat lover Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 89
Loc: Denver, Colorado
A similar issue came up for me yesterday in a conversation with a friend. She asked me about the show "QAF' on TV, which I have only seen once or twice. I told her that I had issues with a 35 year-old man sleeping with a 17 year-old boy. She said 'but it's a beautiful love story.' I'm pretty sure I don't agree with her.


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#69441 - 12/15/05 05:08 PM Re: Talking to a friend
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
It seems to me that the observation of "It's a beautiful love story" is neither here nor there. That is simply a way of stating the feelings the story evokes in an audience waiting to be entertained.

"Queer as Folk" is only a TV show and not real life, okay, but my questions, where such things do occur in real life and trying to keep to the issue Danny raised, would be these: Would the 35 yo man still have been willing to pursue the relationship if the 17 yo boy was not willing for it to become sexual? Is the boy an equal partner in the relationship, or is he just agreeing to sex as the price he has to pay for friendship, acceptance, support and a feeling of being wanted and safe in the world. Is the boy mature enough to see that there is a huge difference? The adult certainly is.

I think it is possible for two people to genuinely share a true feeling of love even if they are far apart in age. From what I have seen of gay friends it also seems to me that the prejudices and hypocrisy of "straight" society cast teenagers and young men who are gay into the "real world" in a far harsher fashion than their peers who are not gay. That is, they have to face up to a lot of questions and issues, and live with the consequences, when no guy that age - or any age for that matter - should have to deal with such things (name-calling, losing friends, acquaintances giggling and making jokes behind their back, being disowned by parents, etc.).

These are just my thoughts - rambling as usual - where an underaged boy is concerned. Is it possible for him really to see what the relationship is all about and what his role in it is?

Punt.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#69442 - 12/16/05 06:01 AM Re: Talking to a friend
cat lover Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 89
Loc: Denver, Colorado
My thinking has been influenced by a book titled "Love Does No Harm: Sexual Ethics for the Rest of Us" by Marie Fortune. After reading this, I'm sure a relationship wtih a 17 y/o & a 35 y/o could not be a peer relationship. I don't think I can explain it as well as the author does.


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#69443 - 12/16/05 03:48 PM Re: Talking to a friend
george of kent Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 305
Loc: delaware
Oh, Larry! You do go right to the heart of things, don't you!
In QAF, the characters of Brian (30yo) and Justin (17yo) are clearly written and acted so that Justin is the assertive one; Brian the one persued. Does that mean there is no abuse here? It's a fine line and I think must be approached on a case by case basis. In the fictional Pittsburgh of QAF, I never got queasy over the Brian/Justin age difference which was treated in my opinion just as an entertaining plot device.
In real life, however, things are usually messier and much less clear. For example, my "perp" was 10 years older than I (and, in truth, I considered myself the "aggressor") and the SA began when I was 12-13 and "he" eventually became my step father!!
Psychologically, the CSA was very damaging to me, but I'm pretty sure that tons of prior emotional and some physical abuse (all related to me being a "sissy") had "set me up" as a potential victim just waiting for an abuser/exploiter to come along.
I'm not sure where we should draw the line -- but it seems clear to me that 12-13 is way too young to be held responsible for the kind of decisions and judgment displayed on tv by a fictional (and exceptionally mature) 17 yo character.
Gentlemen, any rebuttal?

_________________________
"We are only two and yet our howling can encircle the world's end.
Frightened, you are my only friend.
And frightened we are, every one.
Someone must take a stand -- Coward, take my coward's hand"
Arthur Laurents

Top
#69444 - 12/16/05 05:20 PM Re: Talking to a friend
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
George,

I see your point, and yes, I think the real world gets a lot messier than what we see in a TV show. In the "real world" I would ask what's Jason's family history if he is 17 and pursuing a 30 yo man. But maybe that's just me. I find that almost all TV and film portrayals of abuse scenarios are way off the mark in all sorts of ways.

On the responsibility of a 12 yo, I would be the first to admit that this one doesn't hit home to me because the guy who abused me was 51 and I was 11. I bet this question looks a LOT different to brothers here who were, say, 6-8 and were abused by an 11-12 yo or a teenager.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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