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#69236 - 09/10/05 01:28 AM A rant
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Talk about stereotypes.

I had a conversation with a friend who told me that gay men need to be locked up because they're all predators. Of course, that person, whom I have known for years, did not know I am gay, and even thought I would agree with him.

I managed to contain my adrenaline rush and asked him why he thought that way. He said it was because some guy had hit on him, and it freaked him out.

I asked him if he knew any gay men, and his response was, "Why would I want to know any fags?"

At this point I was extremely angry. How I kept my cool that long I don't know.

I picked up my things, and looked at him.

"You don't want to know any gay men at all, huh?"

"No. I don't want anything to do with them," he said with obvious distaste.

"The feeling is mutual. Good bye, Ray."

"I don't..."

"I'm gay, Ray. Thank you for being clear in how you see me. Tell your wife good bye, and I'm sorry."

I walked out, ignoring him and his calls.

I lost a friend, but that is a good thing- he was never a friend to begin with.


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#69237 - 09/10/05 04:40 PM Re: A rant
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Hi Dewey,

Sorry you got that kind of response from your friend. I'm not gay, so may not be the most objective person to talk about this, but here are my thoughts. I went through a class at our church earlier this year called "Wild at Heart" which is generally about what drives men. One major aspect that it covered is called "posing" - how men posture and pose around other men. To think of it in terms of the animal kingdom, it's like how two dominate males in the herd will compete to be the head of the herd. Please don't take any offence at this analogy, it's all I can really think of to describe what the course was talking about. I've seen that kind of posing amoung men a lot, the desire to prove their manliness, prove they "have it", prove that they are worthy. For many men, proving that manliness includes their sexuality and that they are virile, straight, and everything "manly". In doing so, they assume all men would have that perspective of manhood as well. I wonder if that is why your friend seemed genuinely surprised that you didn't share his views of it when he didn't know you are gay. I'm sure he probably feels terrible now in retrospect, realizing what his words have done. I would just urge you to talk to him about it if you still value your friendship with him. Good friends are few and far between, and if his friendship is valuable, I would try to restore that if possible. I'm not trying to discount the hurt you felt at what he was saying, but I feel that most men talk that way in general about things that threaten their manhood until they find out that it affects someone close to them personally.

_________________________
Eddie

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#69238 - 09/10/05 05:18 PM Re: A rant
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
I hadn't considered that, and I'm not certain I accept that reasoning anyway.

What is the difference between what he said and making a racial condemnation based on a stereotype? If you need examples I can supply them.

I'm asking because I do not see the difference. If you do, please explain it to me.

In any case, I don't have the emotional energy to deal with him now.


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#69239 - 09/10/05 05:37 PM Re: A rant
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I'm not saying it was reasonable or acceptable what he did, just trying to show what might have been behind it. And you're right, it is making a condemnation using a sterotype, and a big part of it is simple ignorance and not thinking. Too, I think part of it is conditioned thinking from the environements we grew up in. In my own family, my grandmother was raised in rural Mississippi where the blacks outnumbered the whites. Yet I know she considered herself superior based upon comments I heard her make all her life when she was alive. She tossed around the "N" word in casual conversation as though it were a normal part of the English lexicon. When I was younger, I admit that I used the word as well when I was younger, but it was because it was so freely used amongst my family. I guess the point I'm trying to get to is that your friend's behaviour in talking like that could be coming from a lot of different sources. His background, as well as his own need to feel "manly". Again, doesn't make it right, but I know with my grandmother I just kind of had to consider her background and the environment she came from to understand her prejudice. Don't know if any of this helps or not. Again, I know his words hurt you deeply, but I hope you can think on the fact that he didn't do it knowing you were gay. I thnk that would have been a much more hurtful experience.

_________________________
Eddie

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#69240 - 09/12/05 02:14 AM Re: A rant
Bobby Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 1287
Loc: Arizona
Dewey,

I understand what you're going through. I was in the closet for years hearing the things my good friends said about gays and pretending it didn't hurt, and pretending that it was all right that they said those things because I hadn't been completely honest with them about who I was. But then I would think, "But why would you think that they'd change their opinion just because you told them you were gay? They just wouldn't say it in front of you...maybe."
So, at one point, I came roaring out of the closet...and then went roaring back in after about six months. Most of my friends heard neither roar, but the information seems to have made some of the "rounds", so that now I don't know who knows I'm gay and who doesn't. About six months ago, a friend just said to me out of the blue, "So how are we handling this thing you've announced? It doesn't make any difference to us. We've known for quite awhile now. We just don't know how you want us to handle it." I had no idea they knew. Part of the trouble is that I've decided to stay with my wife, and she thinks it's tough explaining why she's staying married to a gay guy.
Don't know why I'm telling you all of this,except that it puts me in a lot of crazy situations. One of my friends who doesn't know said one day, "I don't mind gay guys. I just don't want one standing beside me at the urinal." I wanted so badly to just calmly say, "Too late." But I held back. On the other hand, when I told our best friends, the man of the couple hugged me, and while he was hugging me, he pinched me on the ass. Another friend I told unfortunately no longer considers me a friend. It's a little sad, and surprising, but I'm not sorry she's gone, if that's who she is.
I have a complete case of the guilts, especially as we here in Arizona approach a vote for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. I see my straight friends fighting publicly against the amendment and wearing the rainbow "equality" bracelets, and can't make myself come out completely yet. I know that, if ever there was a time to speak up and make myself heard, this is it.
Also, I know that, if I ever do come out completely, I will have so much pent up anger that I won't be fun to live with for quite some time as I say all of those things I didn't say while I was in the closet for 35 years. I think my favorite phrase will be "And furthermore....."
I know...really know...how much it hurts when a friend says those things about being gay and you're standing there a gay man trying to decide if it's the moment that you're going to say it finally and walk out. Please don't be too hard on your friend. Yes, it's sad that he thinks that about gays, but he didn't know you were and all of those opinions are really based on ignorance. I truly believe that opinions about homosexuality are changed mainly through knowing and appreciating/loving someone who is gay. "If he's gay and a great person, then it has to be true of a lot of others." I've met several people whose minds were changed in just that way.
That's so easy for me to say. If I could only take that step and tell my friend....

Bobby

_________________________
I'm healing now, and I wasn't sure I would.




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#69241 - 09/17/05 06:44 AM Re: A rant
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
We aren't going to change the world in any drastic manner. It has to be done 1 person at a time.

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#69243 - 09/17/05 10:26 PM Re: A rant
jimrh Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/22/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Roswell, GA
Dewey,

I can tell you that a similar situation occured with me some time ago with a co-worker. To make a long story short, after hearing him blaze on about how he has no idea how to let his sons love his aunt (who he discovered is a lesbian) knowing that she is gay, I came out to him. He was in shock.

In the end, he is still my friend and I think we're even a bit closer for some reason. I think he respected me for having the guts to tell him my truth.

The truth can be revealed, one person at a time. It's not always pleasant, but at least you are true to yourself.

Always be true to yourself.

Jimmer


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#69244 - 10/01/05 09:59 PM Re: A rant
Galapogos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 110
Loc: usa
Dewey,
I can relate, I've been in similar situations, but I didn't have the courage to come out, I just let it eat me up inside, which is probably worse.

Good for you for confronting your friend and standing up for yourself.

I've always been in the closet, except for a couple of people who I sort of confided in. But I think clued in people, coworkers, etc, figure it out after they know me awhile. I haven't come out for a lot of reasons...shame is probably a big one... Sometimes I wonder if people voice their homophobic opinions to see how I'll react, like they won't ask me if I'm gay, but want to know.

Recently I had some friends making fag jokes and it was triggering memories of being beat up in 7th grade and having that name shamed into my synapses, I stewed about if for days and didn't say anything. I don't know if those guys would care that I think less of them now that I know how they feel about gay people. Is it up to me to take a stand? I guess in a way it is, I don't know.

_________________________
Digging in the dirt
Stay with me I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt
--Peter Gabriel

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#69245 - 10/03/05 02:10 AM Re: A rant
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Here are a couple of letters I wrote to a couple "friends" that I never intend to send to them. Since this topic is entitled RANT, they would be appropriate here. Possible Triggers in the lower letter.


Dear R,

I've been wanting to say this for a long time.

When we first started communicating, brother, I thought we had something. I thought we really had a friendship that would grow to be something special, and it did, right up until I realized that I could stand on my own two feet and not be bound by the emotional baggage from the past. You helped me get there and for that I am grateful.

Now, however, you have apparently outgrown our friendship. I'm tired of having to initiate any and all contact we have. It makes me feel like a beggar, and I refuse to do it any more. If you don't feel that I am worth the five minutes it would take to call to say hello, then that's fine. Don't expect me to beat down your door anymore.

I won't even go into how you conspired to keep P's secrets from me, his secrets, his manipulations, his outright lies... No, you aren't worth the effort, brother. Not any more.

D


--- Possible triggers below ---
P,

You rotten son of a bitch.

I thought you and I had a friendship, but I found out you used me to further your own agenda and achieve your goals. It doesn't matter that your aims were noble and good. The point of the matter is you took advantage of my generous nature and my desire to help people come to terms with themselves. You called me brother, yet you didn't trust me enough to ask for my cooperation. Instead you manipulated me into the actions you needed. You put me and my family in legal jeopardy. You used something I created out of my heart and twisted it for your own use. For all of that I can not forgive you.

And as if that were not enough, you lied to me about what happened in January. You told me the kid was 18 when the film was made when he was actually 16. You got off lucky with just 3 years.

And then I found out you were arrested and charged with molesting a 14-year-old boy ten years before. You failed to divulge that little tidbit, and if you had I would never have gotten mixed up with you or your schemes.

You are no different than the pervert who r***d me when I was 10, you sorry sack of sh!t.

Good bye, good riddance, and rot in hell.

D


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