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#69180 - 08/26/05 12:31 AM Re: Just for fun. How gay are you?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Brothers,

Russ may have in mind that there really are issues that should not be joked about. I certainly agree. Homophobia disguised as humor is just prejudice coming in by the back door.

But I don't think that is what we have here, and Jasper really does have a point. The sort of nonsense one sees in that "Gayometer" is so typical of the bantering rather campy humor that you see gay people enjoying. Personally, I think gay humor is some of the absolutely funniest stuff I have ever heard.

But like anything else, to appreciate it you have to understand it. Gays have to struggle and argue for the respect and acceptance that the rest of us take for granted and demand as our right, and they aren't stupid. They know that many times they will be well received to their face and then be mocked or derided as soon as they leave.

Such problems have led the gay community to develop, as Jasper notes, a whole genre of subtle and sometimes outrageous humor that most definitely has a kind of dark and self-deprecating edge to it. There is an "insider" aspect to it, yes, and it is one way they have developed for relating to a world that most definitely does not yet really accept them. It's just part of what gay humor is.

As to whether this is appropriate here, well, yes, that subject can be discussed. Why not? Russ has reservations, so of course, let's hear them. But if we look at the reactions of gay MS members here, you can see that they are not offended and have taken the joke for exactly what it is. So I really don't think there is a problem.

I also agree 100% with Sophiesdad's comment that there there is nothing wrong with a bit of humor. We already have seen some of that elsewhere: all the silliness about the "mysterious SAR", which she seems to enjoy as much as anyone, and the lovely thread about Gaboogistan. SD, as usual, nailed it:

Quote:
Humor can sometimes be better medicine for us than all of the therapy in the world.
That is so true. There is so much darkness and evil in what we must share here, and I for one welcome the threads that prove that despite all the terrible things that have happened to us, we can still find that playful fun-loving streak in ourselves and share it with others. It isn't easy for the gay members to just be themselves here and "let us in", and I think that deserves to be acknowledged and respected.

I hope I am not offending my gay brothers by weighing in here. I'm not claiming any right to interpret you to the rest of the site, I'm just speaking as a guy here with something to say on the subject. If I have got it wrong please do say so. This is an issue of communication and understanding, and I think it needs to be discussed along those lines.

Love to all,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#69181 - 08/26/05 04:15 AM Re: Just for fun. How gay are you?
Don-NY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 546
Loc: Long Island, NY
Jasper,

At the risk of offending you again, I offer this constructive criticism, and I hope you will get some benefit from it.

I think you have made the right decision to leave at this time. The old saying, "where there's smoke, there's fire", comes to mind.

By this I mean, if you are receiving numerous PM's indicating that what you have said is inappropriate, doesn't that at least give you pause to think that maybe, just maybe, it was? Could that be?

Sure, there are people who take on the role of nanny, for good reasons and not so good, and express their concern for the feelings of others, and perhaps that can be taken with a grain of salt. In my experience these nanny types are often really speaking about their own issues.

But how many PM's are you getting, about how many posts? Doesn't that suggest anything to you?

The points about humor are well taken, but when you are presenting sexual humor in a forum for sexual abuse survivors, you are taking a great risk, on several levels.

In the poetry section, in a reply to a 15 year old Survivor of Sexual Abuse, you made two sexual references: rubbers, and spotted dick.

I don't care how you defend this with cultural and semantic differences, if you think those comments were appropriate, then again I think you have made the right choice to stop posting here.

Your points about Gay culture and needs are also well taken, but, this isn't a Gay forum. You ask why there isn't a private Gay forum. There are dozens out there, probably hundreds. If you want one exclusively for Gay Survivors, the search take longer, and the group may be smaller, but if that's what you really need, don't blame this place, or the people here, for not being that.

This site has a separate Gay Forum, because it was recognized early on that there are concerns and issues which Gay men face, because of Sexual Abuse, that are different or have different meaning to them. It has also always been a place where anyone has been welcomed to post or ask questions and discuss things.

It was also intended to be a place where Gay men (and their friends) could discuss the bigotry and misunderstanding they encounter continuously, even by the well meaning. In my three years here, I don't recall any incidents of bashing in these forums. If there are homphobic people here, they appear to be doing an exemplary job keeping that to themselves. Overall, this forum is one of the most understand and accepting sites I've seen.

I think that to claim that sexual bantering is a need and right of Gay men is just a smoke screen for bad behavior, and serves as well to reinforce the idiotic idea that homosexuality is all about unbridled sexuality.

Sexual bantering is also common in the "heterosexual world", but there is a time and place for everything. I think you are forgetting that. If I were in your living room, or a Gay bar I would know what to expect in this regard, but if you came to a class I was teaching in Networking, or a Town Hall meeting, or Heaven Forbid, a funeral, I would expect you to keep a lid on it.

Yet here you are in a forum full of hurting, damaged people; people you don't know anything about other than they have suffered and are suffering from Sexual Abuse, and you make sexual jokes.

In the "How Gay Are You" thread, you said "I was hoping for 69...percent that is!". Did you ever stop to think this could offend or trigger someone? I know for sure of two men here that were forced to do this. I'm willing to bet there are more.

I imagine you're going to think I'm attacking you. I can't control that, but I am not. I do resent you turning this into a Gay verus Straight issue. You do us all a disservice by doing that. I haven't seen any of your comments deleted, so who is censoring you?

You are leaving again, or have left. Your decision again, but should you return, I hope you will consider what I said here.

It comes down to this; we are not here to find and give help and support from others in our own particular groups, minority or otherwise. We are here to find and give help and support to Men who have been sexually abused. All the rest, all the divisions and differences we have are secondary. And if we must stiffle ourselves in small ways to be sure we do no harm, then that seems like a very small price to pay for what we gain here.

Good Luck, Jasper. I wish you well.

Donald

_________________________
If you understand everything, some things are just as they are. If you understand nothing, things are still just as they are.

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#69182 - 08/26/05 04:54 AM Re: Just for fun. How gay are you?
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
If anyone else is thinking of posting here. I ask you not to do so. I am going to see if one of the mods can lock it down. As it has taken a turn for the worst.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#69183 - 08/26/05 10:24 AM Re: Just for fun. How gay are you?
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I don't think that there is a need to close a thread just because a difference of opinion arises. Japer asked that comments be made here in public and not just privately to him in PM; Donald has done that and has made his point constructively, without being offensive or aggressive about it.

That said, the thread really has swerved entirely off its original course as just a bit of humor. I also think that if we have comments to make to someone about their posting habits in general, that really does belong in a PM and not here. I agree with Donald on how this should be received: if I were receiving a number of PMs I would want to look at what I am doing and ask if I need to make some changes. A criticism isn't necessarily a personal attack.

My apologies, Donald, if I gave you the impression that I think homosexuality is about unbridled sexuality. That was not my intention, and to be honest I don't see in my post any place where that can be read into what I said.

On "a time and place for everything", yes, absolutely. But this thread does begin by clearly stating this is something just for fun. I would not argue that anyone can say anything here, but at the same time we all have to judge our own boundaries and decide what we will and won't read. The point is that anyone who sees this thread would have a clear idea of what to expect and can decide whether to continue or not.

I feel my post here is all over the place and that I am trying to stand in two different camps at once. On the one hand, yes, we are all hurting in one way or another, but I do find it helpful and refreshing to be reminded that sexual abuse was something that was done to me; it isn't the sum total of who I am and what my life is about. On the other hand, also yes, we do need to bear in mind where we are and how our humor will affect others.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#69185 - 08/26/05 04:04 PM Re: Just for fun. How gay are you?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
closed at Cowboy's request

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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