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#68118 - 01/19/07 10:36 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
Just thought of something else....


I suppose as each partner learns to realise then communicate their expectations/needs, both are given the opportunity to find out if those needs can be met. Then I suppose, if certain expectations can't ever be met, and depending on how fundamental they are to either person, each one has to consider if they can live with that reality. If not, perhaps that's the point when both have to decide if the relationship can continue?


peace
Beccy


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#68119 - 01/20/07 01:50 AM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Quote:
Unless you are a hindu or similar you had total freedom of choice in choosng a partner. Don't try to blame them for your poor choice. To me making demands and being 'reasonable' is just acting out your own resentment.
after re-reading this statement, and comments from others, i can't help but wonder if this is part of the "i'm so unlovable so anyone who loves me must be crap* also" attitude... (or *crazy, mixed-up, neurotic, pick your favorite psychosis).

i certainly hope not because one can take that sort of thinking and stick it where the sun won't shine.

and i'm not going to apologize for being blunt; i think a lot of people are trying very hard to understand survivors, as well as survivors themselves; to bare their feelings and the difficulties, sometimes insurmountable, in this regard.

so the last thing anyone needs to be told is there must be something wrong with US because we care about YOU

indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#68120 - 01/20/07 04:04 AM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
we just wanna be like everybody else ,but we dont know how

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#68121 - 01/20/07 07:01 AM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hi Ash,

Quote:
Originally posted by AshSurvived:
I find myself reading through earlier posts about to erupt with righteous indignation at the audacity of partners who actually sincerely believe they can issue a list of demands. But, thanks to your wise words I've calmed down.
Well it's always nice to be called wise \:\)
To be honest with you it makes me more curious than indignant; I just see issuing a list of "I need you to..." as a bad strategy. I mean, demands in most contexts do not make people eager to please you. Most of the time they don't even work.

I have to believe that partners know this from experience. Forget about relationships even-- the above is true for all kinds of human interactions. Children, coworkers, siblings, customer service reps-- the best bet is generally to make an honest, polite request, to provide some motivation for the person to accommodate you, and then to step back and give the other party room to respond.

In my opinion it is RIGHT AT THIS POINT-- the survivor's response-- that things break down. I sometimes see a lack of trust/acceptance in partners where the survivor's actions are concerned and this is where I think your "invalid" comments have merit.

I think some partners cannot or will not separate

1. Needs that the survivor does not understand or know about
2. Needs that the survivor recognizes, but will not meet
3. Needs that the survivor is trying to meet, but can't.

I am using an example that is not an issue in my relationship:

It might be that my partner really does not understand my deep need to have a relationship and home which are relatively calm and free of anger and shouting. But once I express that to him, how much trust/respect am I really giving to him if I continue to act like "maybe he just doesn't GET it?"

And what if he continues to get angry and shout? I think I owe it to both of us to evaluate things correctly. If he is cursing and walking out of the house in a rage, and doesn't apologize or show any effort to use other coping methods, I am TOTALLY stripping him of power to assume that he is just doing the best he can. Do I really believe this guy is that incapable of doing something he wants to do? That he is unable to grow and change? If I really do believe that, maybe there is something abusive in our relationship dynamic. Maybe I get something out of being with a person who has no personal power or ability to do for himself.

Then again, if he does seem to be working on this, but he wakes up late one morning, smashes his shin on the desk and snaps at me when I ask him if he's okay, is it fair of me to react as though he's not trying? Should I punish him and myself by dragging out the whole long list of needs again, and by getting upset at him for other angry incidents in our past, all over again? Maybe in that case I should consider that he IS doing his best, and that I am putting unrealistic expectations on him if I want him to protect me from ever experiencing someone's anger.

And in either case it is totally up to me to decide what level of anger is non-negotiable in my relationship-- not to continue in a relationship that has been shown to be unacceptable to me and then blame the other guy for it. Am I willing to accept life with someone who will NEVER greet me with a smile in the morning, as long as he is cheerful after breakfast? Am I willing to accept the name calling and storming out of the house if things are improving in other areas? etc.


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#68122 - 01/20/07 07:06 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Quote:
I just see issuing a list of "I need you to..." as a bad strategy. I mean, demands in most contexts do not make people eager to please you. Most of the time they don't even work.
with all due respect, sar, i cannot fathom at all what you are thinking both in someone stating their needs to another person as well as whether or not it works.

case in point: the ms website clearly states 'guidelines' for posting - these are needs that are meant to keep this site running smoothly and minimize harm to users

every day of our lives we interact in situations where certain needs are expressed and we are expected to follow them if we wish to accomplish whatever it is we are wanting to do at that time - to use a library, we need to return books we borrow, follow the rules, etc. so others might enjoy the same privileges.

in personal relationships, people are often unhappy simply because their biggest failure is NOT expressing their own needs to the other person - this can be in any relationship, friends, social, family, work, academic.

however, in order to express our own needs we first must identify those needs - clearly, succinctly and realistically as is possible between those individuals.

women in society have (almost always) been brought up to put their needs second to those of their male partners, friends, family, virtually every man in their life. to break through this pattern is not easy and yet break through they must in order to find their own fulfillment as individuals. one of the first steps is identifying their own needs. the second step is expressing those needs to their partners, as expectations in the relationship, how he might meet those needs.

how on earth can the survivor-partner ever grapple with the complexities of a relationship - much less be successful at it - if he doesn't even know what's expected of him? :rolleyes:

to tell someone, or worse yet, to be angry, turn away, even cry - and not tell your partner why - ! that's downright as dysfunctional as one can get.

it also seems that disclosure comes about when the survivor is at the point where he wants to express a certain need to his partner/friend/family and is taking steps to do so, however difficult it might be.

i believe if one is interested in an honest relationship one must be forthright about it first, then work on what can and cannot be accomplished second.

if i cannot abide by what's requested of me, then i have a choice to say no. we owe it to our partners to let them know our needs so they can also have that choice. what comes next is between the individuals to work it out from there.

Quote:
we just wanna be like everybody else ,but we dont know how
when we express our needs to you, and asking you for what yours are, we are also teaching you how to understand yourself and become whoever it is you want to be. \:\)

all the best,
indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#68123 - 01/20/07 09:54 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hi Indy,

You are not so far off from what I was trying to say. I posted late at night and maybe wasn't as clear as I could have been.

I am not saying there's anything wrong with expressing your personal desires in a relationship. I am a big advocate of identifying and being honest about our personal needs, and of letting people know what we expect from them. I am certainly not saying it's better to be silent and resentful or expect people to guess.

But it is as you say-- expressing your needs is one step in a process... identifying needs, then expressing those needs AND boundaries (not just "I need my partner to speak to me with courtesy" but also the boundary "I will not remain in a room with someone who is yelling"), and then giving the other person room to choose how to act, and then responding to the other person's actions in a way that communicates your boundaries.

I see a lot of folks who just get stuck on expressing the needs and do it over and over instead of moving forward in the process. There is a disconnect between their words and actions that ends up negating some of the message of NEED, and messes up the balance of power.

This is where expressing becomes demanding, and they are different. One is effective, and in my experience, the other is only effective where there is an imbalance of power.


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#68124 - 01/21/07 05:37 AM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
AshSurvived Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 167
Loc: Australia
I read the replies and I'm so confused. But I'm glad some people had a think and are looking at these issues in their lives. By now I've forgotten all the replies but I pretty much stand by my concept that you get what you pay for.

Righteous indignation is something well bred children probably do best, so I can't relate to it at all. If you picked a partner with no idea of what you were actually picking, that's a reflection on you. And the righteous indignation confirms that to me, lest you should examine your own motives overmuch because you want to insist they are pure. To use another cliche: "birds of a feather...." I'm just stating the obvious, because it's not something everyone seems to factor in to their relationship equations. Maybe it's the mothering conditioning in you, maybe it's the ideological programming from Uni, maybe it's a lot of things, but your surviving partner will pick up on every nuance of your shortcomings before you even know about it. They've got you pegged, labelled and filed away.

I'm trying unsuccessfully to show that a catalyst for change in the survivor is honesty, a bit of good old introspection on the part of the healthy partner, a bit of acceptence of complicity in the relationship and in the furtherence of the abuse. They wouldn't be with you if it wasn't working for them. Harsh words I know, but that's what I like about this place, we talk about the really big things and peoples lives are changed, it's all real.

No one replied to the bits I thought were important, which I notice happens a lot, and I assume it's because the brain blocks out the bits that hurt to avoid trauma in the same way the brain blocks out painful memories. And I wonder further if partners who block out things that scrape against their ideology which they are forcing on their relationship are acting out here as well, or acting out in their actions to their partners. Protecting themselves from change by putting up a big ideological front or a big front of demands, anything to maintain control, cos it's scary looking into lonliness and thinking' that could be me tomorrow. They might leave, and I might wake up alone, they might decide they are gay and stay the night'. It must take real courage and real character to weather that. I do think for all the terrible years we've been together I have built charcter in my wife that wasn't there before. Not wholly intentionally, but the trauma for her has built that character. She went through a hoity-toity 'I'm the boss of the world' stage too, and she went submissive, and other things, and then she started to grow.

That's why I have plagued her to read Victims No Longer. I think it's crap, but I also think it will help her recall and make sense of the awful past and move on, because it catalogues the demands that survivors make on their partners.

On reflection, I want to post>
_________________________
"It's your world Dave, I'm just livin' in it"

- Harvey Pekar to David Letterman
(American Splendour)

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#68125 - 01/21/07 06:53 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
indygal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 439
Quote:
I do think for all the terrible years we've been together ...
??? is this an honest evaluation of your relationship?

ash, i can't help but wonder if you are trying to convince yourself all survivor's relationships are "terrible" so you might justify your own.

no doubt the survivor/non-survivor relationship is difficult and sometimes does end in separation but not always. a healthy relationship in any situation promotes growth and well being, being a suvivor is no exception, it just takes more time and effort.

i'm sorry you are so negative and see so little hope because it is there, it is possible, for you as well as everyone else.

all the best,
indy

_________________________
my avatar is one of the Battle Angel characters, fighting the good fight.

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#68126 - 01/21/07 08:26 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
I just wrote a load of stuff, then deleted it. I'm not sure I'm one of the 'healthy partners'. I am learning about the differences between my bf's problems and mine and have come to wonder why either of us has stayed with the other. At the same time, I can see a number of things which must have made sense enough for both of us to stay.....

Over the past year, I have come to see some of
my own ideology come to fruition with my bf. I have seen changes which are monumental for him/me/us. These are ideologies which I had long ago forgotten/learned to live without, never mind realise/ask for/hope for. I have also seen myself change in ways which have proved some of my own beliefs about myself to be not necessarily 'stuck' that way. Because of these things, I will not underestimate either my bf, or myself and our capacities to grow and change. (It has taken both of us seeking (good) proffessional help to begin to change these things) Whether we grow and change in the same direction and still want to be with eachtoher is yet to be seen. That is a reality. But maybe that's always the reality really......


Ash, are you saying your wife didn'thave any character originally?

Also, you say you don;t do feelings, but in one of your other posts, you said you love your wife. Is that love a feeling? I read other feelings too in your posts. Do you mean you feel numb a lot of the time?


I hear your feelings of indignation about partner's expectations. I also know the reality of having expectations and the absolute importance of learning to realise what they are, expressing them in a constructive way. What happens after that will be particular to each individual relationship and no-one can predict that future. Do you have expectations in your relationship with your wife?


I'm just going to post this now, before I delete it again...


peace
Beccy


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#68127 - 01/21/07 10:40 PM Re: Survivors: What We Would Like You to Know About Us.
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
I've just re-read what I posted, and I don't know if I was very clear...


Ash, I am not doubting your experience/feelings after reading about some of the partner's expectations on this board. They are your feelings and no-one has the right to doubt or invalidate them. But some of the things you said made me feel like you were invalidating and ridiculing those expectations.


peace
Beccy


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