This usually works for me - while scary and hard to "sit by" and watch unfold, it can result in the desired outcome you want with your partner.. however we have to accept that there is always the possibilty that it might not (as in anything in life there are no guarantees) but even in that case at least this helps US as partners stay sane and not lose ourselves!!!!!

Dear all

Thank you for bringing all these different opinions on sabotage.The last time V tried to do it, he drove me into a huge panick attack because what he said came as a big shock and made absolutely no sense.
I had made the terrible mistake to tell him I wanted to be close to him and spend the night in his arms. It backfired with him saying he had no feelings for me. It was only a few days after I returned from South Africa and after he had truly showed me he really cared(he had written to me nearly every day while I was away, sometimes worrying sick when he did not receive a mail because I was in the middle of nowhere).
I think he did not expect at all that I would be so affected. I had a near death experience and I told him when I was finally able to speak, that I was feeling much better "over there" and that I did not want to come back into my body !
I wrote to say I wanted to break up with him because I was so hurt. After a few weeks, we saw each other again at the website parties where he was looking guilty and ashamed. He checked how I would behave with him, whether I was angry or not, if I hated him...At one point he deliberatly walk all around a long table to sit next to me and he started talking about his studies. I slowly began to recognize the sabotage pattern. What Mary says is very true. Sabotage comes when we get to close. Everytime I feel that it makes the relationship grow. We are both trying to heal so we have to be flexible but I am now trying to take the relationship from the point we ended it at. We don't have to start all over again because I have his trust (at least more and more of his trust) and we have a "history" that make our couple something. The hardest is to not really knowing what we are or what we will be. I think I will be able to truly support him the day he will be able to say: "I care for you, I love you and I want you into my life".
For now, I am confused,especially when we meet in public, because I simply don't know how to behave.
It is also true that for V. it has been difficult to admit that he could have a wonderful friendship and at the same time sexual desires. He told me once that getting support and tenderness scared him to death because that was taking him straight back to his mother and triggered memories. I had to remind him that I was not his mother, that I would not hurt him and that tenderness and support were normal and natural in a relationship. I told him he would miss a lot if he would base his relationship without these elements. I told him that what was really wrong is that his mother had used tenderness and care to get sexual. He thanked me for these words and I guess it takes time to fully integrate them.
I am trying to fight against the sabotage patterns by giving him confidence in himself and reassurance that I care for him. He hurt me but I am still holding on. I am sure I will have more to say about that in the near future. I am prepared for more attempts. It gives me comfort to know that this is part of the way survivors build relationship. So it is a sign that V and I have a relationship ! In a way it makes me proud for the two of us and also for all of you who have been succeeding in "making things work".
Much blessings to you all
Caro

Re: Sabotage: check out this site:

http://lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html

Does this raise any interesting observations? It has for me!

P

PAS,

That site was actually so helpful that I don't even know what to say about it yet. Not so much for our relationship but in terms of me understanding where he comes from. I don't usually pay attention to that "typical feminine/mother" "masculine/father" kind of stuff, but that is TOTALLY his mom and dad.

I think my boyfriend and I have a different shame/guilt dance. If you had to draw lines between our interactions, the lines would just end in the middle somewhere, with this gap in between, and two people kind of looking over the gap at each other, and running next to the gap and then running back but nobody's jumping. It is like, we both hurt inside so much, each time we hurt each other, and we're both so afraid to hurt each other that neither one of us is doing anything and then that hurts too.

Oh, I sound pessimistic but I can't actually tell you how nice it is even to say sad things! At least I have something to say and someone to say it to. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Sar

I've just read a terrific book by Penny Parks - "Rescuing the Inner Child"
( probably on sale in the US as it has the price $12-95 on it.
ISBN Number. 0 285 65089 0 )

There's a good chapter on "Sabotage" , if you'd like to read it PM me.

Dave

I have been blown away by this model too. It was introduced to me at my "real life" partners of SA survivors group and I am seeing it in all parts of my life - from my work reltaionships to my parents and me, to my partner and I. Interesting.. very interesting.

I see a lot of "victim-perpetrator" swings at work, a lot of victim-helper swings in my parents (mom as helper, dad as victim) and victim-helper-perpetrator dances in my relationship. INitially we both try to "help" and then get pissed off when we can't and then we go into "poor me victim" mode and then to perpetrator. Pretty sad!!!