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#67767 - 09/29/03 11:21 AM sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Lloydy:


I think it's a lot less to do with 'actual sex' than I once thought, and much more to do with humiliation.

Acting out does that to me, it makes me feel like shit.
And if I'm absolutely honest - I got pleasure from giving bj's, it's everything that goes with it I hate; and makes me feel so bad.

Dave
Thanks for this candidness - my BF actually told me the same thing this week. He talked about his past sexual experiences - all of them were with women who treated him like dirt.

I always struggled, mentally, with this aspect of his past, especially as being treated with respect is such a big deal for him. I have always wondered WHY then if this is his experience and his "bottom line", could he just go and have sex with those that clearly did not have his best interests at heart. He finally admitted that he felt he didnt deserve anything better, sexually, than that. That it too was about humiliation, about making himself feel as bad as possible about sex, etc (I'm sure the abuse already compounded his fear of sex which was "instilled" in him by his mother who has a very traditional, rigid, Catholic view of sex - hell - even before the abuse he was taught that sex was dirty, shameful, not to be talked about, etc.).

Before now, when I used to want to discuss this issue, he just used to look at me with a blank stare, or get all upset or angry, definitely was not constructive about integrating this aspect of his life.

I am glad that finally he is dealing with this, except it has resulted in the great sexual freeze-out!

I find this most baffling - he's NOT new at dealing with his SA issues. He's been in therapy/healing for quite a while - he first started addressing his issues in about 1997 when he quit drinking and went to therapy for the first time. He continued this work partly but not totally whole-hog.. he quit alcohol but was smoking a lot of pot until about 2001.. still in some very unhealthy sexual relationships until about 1998. WE met in 2001 and shortly thereafter I insisted he quit drugs, and then we went to couples counselling and he sought individual counselling. He then completed a case against his perp (which is pending for a hearing sometime around Xmas) and then returned to therapy in 2001, completed a course in anger management for men and now is in group therapy for male SA survivors.

I know in my mind that he is on the right track - but I guess I need some support - this whole sexual freeze out right after we got engaged, especially considering so many things are going so RIGHT in the relationship is just throwing me for a loop.

And the worst part of it is here I am the big hypocrite who wrote all kinds of wonderful supportive posts on here last week - and I find this situation is making me *really* upset..

So bizarre - he pops the big question to me, we're planning a wedding, working on a really healthy, respectful relationship, we're connecting emotionally so much better, our friendship is on a total roll, and now he barely won't let me touch him at all..

I went to a bridal show yesterday, walked in, looked at all the other happy couples there, and started freaking out.. doing the whole doomsday self-talk "well what a fine marriage THIS is gonna be if we still can't have sex by then!!! And so much for starting a family!!" I know that's totally not the truth but that was what was running through my mind...

I know, MENTALLY this is part of the process and we've had a few down times before in this regard, but this is the most shut down sexually I've ever seen him. Most of our SA issues have been about emotional intimacy, spending time together, anger, control and power, etc...

Just reading all the posts on here about how the sexual response is out of the conscious mind -this totally worries me. I didnt think that after all his therapy, and the fact that we've been totally ok sexually, that aspect of relationships would be a problem.. but this is depressing me more than I thought it would.

For those of you in the know - does it sound like he's really on his way to resolving issues around sex? Its bizarre that he seems to have come so far, that he's done so much work, that we are getting along so much better now, that we are so close and talking about everything, and now he's totally shut down sexually (he even admitted he has stopped masturbating - and masturbation has been a big part of his life for about 20 years). Maybe he was just able to split this aspect off from his life and his healing and now he's finally the point where he can look at sex in an integrated whole... I dont know.

Any sage advice? This week I dont think I can provide any - instead this time I need it from y'all.

PAS


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#67768 - 09/29/03 11:26 AM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Just a follow up - incidentally my fiance doesnt seem to be bothered by this situation very much.... He is convinced deep in his soul somewhere that this is all part of the journey, that this is part of the healing process. He is making no apologies for him being this way - he has said "i'm sorry this is so bothersome to you but I know this will be resolved, and unfortunately its happening at a bad time but it is something I have to do and you will just have to wait it out"...

..its so weird he almost seems giddy with joy these days.. that he's addressing things.. he was so excited he was on the right track he played hockey last night and scored a hat trick!!!

But so... if he's so confident about things, so why do I feel so scared? Maybe that this is a "ME" thing for him and its not a "WE" thing??

PAS


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#67769 - 09/29/03 03:05 PM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
stpbb Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 103
PAS,
When my ex first started having sexual issues, my therapist said it was a good sign regarding the healing process. She said that it was integrating the stuff he was learning & dealing with in therapy. It was hard for me to see that way, especially because we weren't moving toward a committment, but rather away from the relationship altogether. I think that 'going through the motions' rather than being really connected sexually can come from the emotional reactions attached to sex in the recovery process. My ex did that for a while, too. We went from real comforatable intimacy to distance & that distance was really hard on both of us. We finally agreed that it was better for us to back off completely, rather than creating problems that would just amplify what he was worrying about already.

It sounds like you two are really committed to each other. Preparing for a wedding is a stressful process in itself & there is so much pressure surrounding that event to feel or want certain things. In my experience with myself & my close friends, it is a huge amount of work, negotiations with all the in-laws & friends, pressure to look right, follow the 'right' rules, etc. And of course, the real reason people are getting married can get lost in the white dresses and seating arrangements.

I guess what I am trying to say is trust yourself, trust your fiance. It sounds like you are doing this for all the right reasons - don't let your own or others' ideas about how it 'should' be get you down. And know that it is 100% normal to get freaked out at bridal shows!

All the best to you -- what an exciting time!

-BB.


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#67770 - 09/30/03 08:47 AM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
PAS ~ it took some time to re read your posting for some of it to sink in to my thick skull. First I thot it was the title that tripped me up.. it expressed so much of what I am feeling for my own self right now. I dont have a sex drive & dont really care too much if I ever regain it. (it started even b4 detox 4 me) I know that my "healthy brain" tells me that I will Want to have sex again, I just am not in a push mode for that part of myself & yea, like your BF is convinced this is all part of his healing path.
It's really hard NOT to internalize WHAT our partners are feeling / thinking / doing etc even in the "healthiest" of relationships.
you said (i still havent figured out how to quote) "And the worst part of it is here I am the big hypocrite who wrote all kinds of wonderful supportive posts on here last week - and I find this situation is making me *really* upset.. "
dont be too hard on yourself... YOU need to feel connected to your BF too & that includes sexual expression YOU'RE NOT A HYPOCRITE!! let me say that again for you.. You're Not A Hypocrite ~ by far...
I read the list of ALL the things the 2 of you and HE have done to Heal & become a Couple. WOW! and I mean WOW!WHOO ZEE!! I Aplaude BOTH of YOU!
Maybe you should Re Read your list?... THAT is A LOT of work for any ONE person, & then to add an additional person is even MORE! BE PROUD of Yourselves... You're on a great path & have done a tremendous amount of work!
PAS just from my own 17 + yrs of marriage I know that often we went thru periods of "sexual freeze out". It sort of comes & goes depending on the surrounding influx. sometimes it's something so simple as just being really truly physically tired. (i know you can identify with that busy person! \:\) )
The desire to be intimate & close sexually will resurface. Not necessarily WHEN & HOW you want it exactly , but it will. (for example hubby2 went "sober" to clean up from his sex addiction now I am the one who isnt interested?)
I reckon what I am saying is all that you have put into words & I am sure there is Waaaay More that you didn't list -- Be kind to Yourself, planning a wedding makes even the sanest insane. Watch your mom in law thru this ;\) \:\)
and I think you probably summed up A good portion of this in saying this " Maybe he was just able to split this aspect off from his life and his healing and now he's finally the point where he can look at sex in an integrated whole... I dont know."
that little statement is HUGE! take a good look at how GREAT your INSIGHT IS! Sharing your experience & using your wonderful expressing talents & words to describe surely DID put to explanation a way to sum up what even I am feeling right now... So Thank You for that Mucho Grande !
I send hope & prayers that this will be short lived for you & passes as quickly as possible.
Peace, Sammy


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#67771 - 09/30/03 10:09 AM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Sammy and STPBB (dont think I spelled your nickname right)?!?!

You both rock!

Thanks so much for writing right away. I am sitting here at my desk at work with big crocodile tears in my eyes... things are so damn awkward between my fiance and me. Its like all the flirting and playing that we used to do is now off limits, has taken so much of the fun and the sparkle out of our interactions. I cant even touch him on his skin anywhere, when we kiss its like there's a ruler between us (like a junior high dance) he does not want to touch me.. i have spent this morning getting ready with the words "ok so now our entire sex life was a total lie?" yes I guess I am internalizing this..

I am thinking too that perhaps we will have to back off completely rather than keeping trying and getting angry and frustrated.. that is what keeps happening anyhow...

Quote:

(i still havent figured out how to quote) "And the worst part of it is here I am the big hypocrite who wrote all kinds of wonderful supportive posts on here last week - and I find this situation is making me *really* upset.. "
dont be too hard on yourself... YOU need to feel connected to your BF too & that includes sexual expression YOU'RE NOT A HYPOCRITE!! let me say that again for you.. You're Not A Hypocrite ~ by far...



Yeah - I feel anything *but* connected right now - our engagement was such an amazing turning point and now he's a million miles away? He used to keep me at distance through anger, we finally resolve that and now its physical distance.......

I do feel like a creep with him sometimes now.. last night I was looking at him and feeling horrible and guilty and scummy for feeling turned on even in his presence - he attracts me a whole lot and I just feel no better than the bastard who molested him when I find myself being sexually attracted to him, wanting to kiss him, touch him, be touched by him....

Quote:


just from my own 17 + yrs of marriage I know that often we went thru periods of "sexual freeze out". It sort of comes & goes depending on the surrounding influx. sometimes it's something so simple as just being really truly physically tired. (i know you can identify with that busy person! \:\) )


Yeah - I can.. but it was never because he didnt turn me on, it was the fatigue and preoccupation that would just kill any desire I had at all.. but a good night's sleep fixed me right up.. But for us now.. it is hard to know that he still does get sexually aroused but instead of seeing me or feeling me all he thinks of is the bastard who molested him... quite the different story...

I guess its just easier when I'm the one in control of it \:\( .. hard to let others be "in control".. especialy with my background. However I realize this is one area where I definitely will NOT start a power struggle.. I just wish he could be more definitive about what is off limits and what is ok.. I *really* need him to define his boundaries right now.

Quote:

The desire to be intimate & close sexually will resurface. Not necessarily WHEN & HOW you want it exactly , but it will.


Thats good to hear. Although I can identify with a lot of aspects of being an abuse survivor, the sexual aspect of things is the one way that I cannot relate. I have to admit that I dont have a CLUE about this part of things - and its good that you can be reassuring that things will improve.

Quote:

planning a wedding makes even the sanest insane. Watch your mom in law thru this ;\) \:\)


Thank god his younger brother is already married with a baby daughter.. more for her to fuss over there \:\) Also good that she lives 3.5 hours away!

I'm more worried about what this is going to do to my dad.. he's a loose cannon at the best of times and the source of my abuse.. already instead of being happy he's been all over me for "how much this is gonna cost HIM"... what a jerk. But that's not the topic of this thread. Thats for another time.

Quote:

and I think you probably summed up A good portion of this in saying this " Maybe he was just able to split this aspect off from his life and his healing and now he's finally the point where he can look at sex in an integrated whole... I dont know."
that little statement is HUGE! take a good look at how GREAT your INSIGHT IS! Sharing your experience & using your wonderful expressing talents & words to describe surely DID put to explanation a way to sum up what even I am feeling right now... So Thank You for that Mucho Grande !


I guess then is it ok for me to ask you the types of questions that I can't ask him? Can I ask you how you know that you feel your sexual desire will come back? Do you think you're on the verge of integrating things and ready to become a sexual being again? If so -what gives you that confidence? Do you have hope that this will resolve itself? Do you think that your way of relating to someone sexually will be different after you "integrate"? Is there any hope that my BF and I will have the same kind of interactions that we had before?

I hope you dont mind me asking. If those are too tough for you then please dont feel obliged to answer.


Quote:

I send hope & prayers that this will be short lived for you & passes as quickly as possible.
Peace, Sammy
Thanks Sammy. I just am really confused. Not sure if my whole sexual relationship with my fiance was a total lie, a total fake.. or if there was some reality in there.. I really liked the way we played, flirted, not talking about when we were in bed but just say, in the kitchen, we flirted, we danced around the kitchen when we were cooking.. now all of that appears to be out of bounds. That part of our life together just brought so much spark and life to my life, to our relationship.. and now that has just died.


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#67772 - 09/30/03 10:31 AM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by stpbb:
PAS,
When my ex first started having sexual issues, my therapist said it was a good sign regarding the healing process. She said that it was integrating the stuff he was learning & dealing with in therapy. It was hard for me to see that way, especially because we weren't moving toward a committment, but rather away from the relationship altogether. I think that 'going through the motions' rather than being really connected sexually can come from the emotional reactions attached to sex in the recovery process. My ex did that for a while, too. We went from real comforatable intimacy to distance & that distance was really hard on both of us. We finally agreed that it was better for us to back off completely, rather than creating problems that would just amplify what he was worrying about already.

It sounds like you two are really committed to each other. Preparing for a wedding is a stressful process in itself & there is so much pressure surrounding that event to feel or want certain things.

Yeah.. and combine this therapy with the fact that during our engagement he will be testifying against his perp.. (everyone keep your fingers crossed - he testifies sometime around Xmas) some days we are wondering what the hell we are doing. At least we have taken some of the pressure off and not decided to move in together until the spring or summer (we are planning a wedding for 12 months from now).

Anyhow with this sexual shut down - I think somewhere deep inside me I knew this might happen, somewhere on an intellectual level, but now that its actually happening its harder than I thought it would be. I guess that's why I was calling myself a hypocrite.....

Good that I'm not the only one who has experienced this.. I am glad this is a good sign.. therapy is weird isnt it when you are on a "roll" and really healing things on the inside, things appear to get worse on the outside.. When my fiance made great strides with his anger work, things got really bad then they got better... so hopefully things will get better in this area too. However with the anger I *knew* there was a problem and I had a vested interest (my own sanity) in his anger work.... but with sexuality its different - I didnt know there was a problem -we were close sexually.. but with the anger it was like we were stuck at a certain distance and could not get closer. Resolution of the problem made it worse a bit anyhow initially but it allowed us to move closer to each other and really form a commitment, get engaged and be sure of it, etc.

But with this - I thought we were already close or so I thought... Damn I feel so selfish writing this crap because I think what the hell he must be going through and what he has already gone through..... but I can't help it - I see it as having the wool pulled over my eyes.. that things were bad for him but I didnt know.. and I got used to and happy with a comfortable sexual intimacy and a pattern of relating with him sexually, that I was really happy with, only to find out that it wasn't real. Or maybe that's just my perception of it. Maybe it was real, but anyhow I am just finding myself questioning it all...

And I know this is again pushing all my own abuse-triggered buttons of feeling accepted, feeling attractive, feeling sexy.. feeling wanted.. augh.. Good thing I have a T appointment tomorrow.

And I do feel really ashamed to even bring this up and I feel selfish because this is HIS issue - I think being in his shoes must be worse than being in mine, except maybe that he is the one in the drivers seat on this.. then again he seems right giddy about his recovery right now - that he finally can put his finger on what the problem is he's got so much energy, he's happy, he's confident, secure, and centered in a way I've never seen him. So strange that all that is happening for him and he is just so shut down sexually!


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#67773 - 09/30/03 02:28 PM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
PAS ~ YOU ROCK TOO!! \:\) because of so many of your postings I came to understand so much!

Quote:
I do feel like a creep with him sometimes now.. last night I was looking at him and feeling horrible and guilty and scummy for feeling turned on even in his presence - he attracts me a whole lot and I just feel no better than the bastard who molested him when I find myself being sexually attracted to him, wanting to kiss him, touch him, be touched by him....
Aww damn PAS THAT is STRONG --- YOU ARE NOT HIS MOLESTER IN ANY WAY , SHAPE OR FORM !! Damn, that brings TEARS to my eyes -- Hubby2 said the same exact thing to me and hearing you say it, makes it that much more humongous -- What a shitty feeling! Can you tell him that? Or do you think it would be too soon for that powerful of a statement? I know when hubby2 told me he was afraid he was "being my molester", I reassured him to the best of my ability he wasn't because my molesters never CARED if I was in PAIN emotionally or physically. Maybe even right NOW that is WHY I am not all that interested in sex with hubby -- I dont WANT to feel like a molester, because I have sexualized him too. By sexualizing him, I am NOT protecting him -- I know in my healthy brain he has to choose what protection he needs or doesnt -- maybe my unhealthy codependant brain is in overdrive & killing my own desire too?
Quote:
But for us now.. it is hard to know that he still does get sexually aroused but instead of seeing me or feeling me all he thinks of is the bastard who molested him... quite the different story...
Are you sure for a FACT that the ONLY way he sees or feels about your sexual contact is that he is being molested again? Yes it IS quite a different story -- it PUTs a Hell of a LOT of pressure ON YOU to NOT BE his MOLESTER! AND that is NOt fair to EITHER of you. I know for me PAS that when I am more likely to be triggered from any of my abuse issues, I tend to want to pull the wool over my own eyes, or not interact with what has been trigger points in my past.. thru time I have learned tho that one day it may be a trigger another day it may not be -- sucks for both hubby2 & I , but we keep working on it -- talking as much as possible helps. Sometimes talking about ANYTHING BUT the abuse is best too -- we re connect on that other level of laughing together & before we know it turns out we are dancing in the living room to some silly rock song.
Quote:
I guess its just easier when I'm the one in control of it .. hard to let others be "in control".. especialy with my background. However I realize this is one area where I definitely will NOT start a power struggle.. I just wish he could be more definitive about what is off limits and what is ok.. I *really* need him to define his boundaries right now.
Yea it is easier when I am the one in control too -- I get to be the one who "chooses" for me & it feels DAmn GOOD to be selfish a lot since I didnt get to be very selfish as a kid. Ya know , about defineing WHAT I "need".. shoot, I dont even know... most times I wanted HIM to PICK SOMETHING for me to START with... then from there I had to write out my thoughts or talk to my T about them... But just getting the "goose" from another persons view seemed to break my mental freeze out... ? I hope I explained that well enough -- maybe he could start a list for you? It might even help him to break out of his own sexual freeze some too (?).
Quote:
I'm more worried about what this is going to do to my dad.. he's a loose cannon at the best of times and the source of my abuse.. already instead of being happy he's been all over me for "how much this is gonna cost HIM"... what a jerk. But that's not the topic of this thread.
PAS perhaps it isnt a subject to make different -- Dad is a button pusher for you, How does that make YOU feel? Do you need your BF to be stronger & more "connected to you" so that you feel you have his alliance during the process of HOW much this is going to cost Dad? If you are feeling vulnerable against your enemies (those who hurt you even now) perhaps the close connection even thru sexual contact is comforting - - Women release hormones during sexual contact the same as men do. So to me it would stand to reason that we need to have sexual contact for the chemical reassureance as much as the emotional reassurance. (i may be way off base here).
Quote:
I guess then is it ok for me to ask you the types of questions that I can't ask him? Can I ask you how you know that you feel your sexual desire will come back? Do you think you're on the verge of integrating things and ready to become a sexual being again? If so -what gives you that confidence? Do you have hope that this will resolve itself? Do you think that your way of relating to someone sexually will be different after you "integrate"? Is there any hope that my BF and I will have the same kind of interactions that we had before?
How do I know it will come back? = because in 17 + yrs it always has, this is NOT the first time so just thru my own experience.
the FIRST time scared the crap out of me, then when I began to "integrate" the Positives into my brain with out having to force think I.E. I'm only good for oral sex into I like to Please Myself and Honey. When I was doing that & didnt even realize I was doing it (it took a lot of failed attempts on my behalf) then I realized "Hey Sammy you just Stayed in the momentum" .. I somehow had a sense of celebration about my growth & was able to stay more in the positive light of the situation. the cup half full as opposed to half empty ... I still have those trigger times when I "Fight" with what I know better than to do tho, and I slip like a quick oiled eel into a fast abyss.
Just my Not so Humble Opinion there is MUCH HOPE to look forward to returning to some of your same loving sexual contact that you had before -- Because in what hubby2 & I have experienced we seem to some how incredibly pop back into the happy stuff more and more and more and more and quicker and quicker and quicker over the passage of time and experience. Like I tried to say in the post to Justice's Angel about how LONG 12 days is in real time.. it depends on which side of the coin one is at the time. It's strange to think of it now, but just in this past year I really took SOME time to explore my own body & thoughts about what my "core beliefs" are about it. I was surprised to find so much negativity even after all these yrs in therapy. Now I have masturbated before, but this past year was entirely DIFFERENT than before. Because I concentrated on ME more than trying to find out what my "physical likes & dislikes" are. What I learned is I pretty much "LIKE" everything, but it depended soley on what mental space I was in BEFORE I began sexual contact of any type. I did define ONE thing very solid and fast for me.. I absolutely DO NOT in ANY FASHION have a desire or interest in anal sex. I was horrified at first to find how deeply I am attracted to my same sex. Reading the guys postings here it made me feel waaayyy normal tho'. So hubby2 & I talked about that mental tape loop I have to play some times to get an orgasm -- when I came clean to him about that damn tape that played he reassured me it was ok he didnt take it as an offense as I did or thot he would. I've also discovered that since I shared that info with him I no longer can get my orgasm, and have no REAL desire to masturbate either. Perhaps its more de>

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#67774 - 09/30/03 03:37 PM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
wifenneed Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 91
Loc: Michigan
This is a great thread. I too get a sexual freeze out, about every few months it seems. Things just get too much for him and away he goes. Only it's everything that goes away, no real joy from him in any situation, and I relly struggle at those times. With your fiance and his case coming up against his perp, your engagement and all the planning involved, well, my husband would have shut down completely if put under all those stressors.

I also feel like a creep, especially late at night, we are in bed together and I wake up just wanting to be touched, and knowing it's out of the question is so very hard.

I think you will be fine, and sounds as though you are making great progress, even though it doesn't feel much like it right now!

Sincerely,
Wifenneed


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#67775 - 09/30/03 08:49 PM Re: sexual freeze-out (spin off from "doubts and insecurities")
Justice's Angel Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Va, USA
I think we all feel like the molester at some point. Sometimes I feel bad about feeling sexual about my boyfriend too cause I know what he's going through. I feel bad for wanting it. I try to focus on the things that I know are ok. Atleast lately he seems to be better about me holding him in his sleep and that makes me a lot happier. Affection isn't a bad thing but anything getting too close to sex seems to bother him. I've seen a slight improvement over time and although this is all frustrating maybe with more time it will get better.

I know this contradicts some of the stuff I've been posting in my own thread but I feel both ways about things at differant times


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