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#67720 - 09/18/03 06:15 PM Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Faith Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 11
Hello All,
I haven't posted in a while, but always find terrific guidance whenever I do. Here's my question: Is my fiance gay? (he's an adult male survivor - abused by males). I've asked this before, but am having doubts again. Why I'm having doubts: Our sex life has peaks & valleys - currently in a valley. Our level of intimacy has peaks & valleys - currently in a valley (there's not a lot of affection, hugs, kisses, etc.) He can only orgasm through oral sex. He's confessed to homoerotic fantasies but insists he's not gay. I've asked him point blank about this and he again insists he's not gay and is starting to get irritated at my doubts (I don't blame him). I'm confused. I'm disheartened. I'm just generally feeling low. I can try to deal with all the other issues that come with loving an abused male, but if he's gay, what's the point?


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#67721 - 09/18/03 08:06 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Faith
If I was forced at gunpoint to quote odds, then with what little knowledge I have I would say 50 / 50.

It's a minefield that question, and it's one we as survivors struggle with for a long while.

I'm reasonably sorted out, compared to the mess I was, and in that mess I put my odds at about 50% gay, 50% confused to hell, or maybe the other way around.
I was confused big time.

But I don't fancy guys, I fancy women and pretty girls. I now realise I always have.

So why is my fantasy all about giving guys bj's ?
It's nothing to do with being gay, I don't even envision any particular kingd of guy.
But the homo-erotic fantasy is still strong.
And in the end is a 'fantasy' that bad, as long as we have control over it ?

Still a bit confused about some things, but I'm hetero.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#67722 - 09/18/03 08:38 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Hello Faith~
I am married but seperated from my spouse who is a survivor of sex abuse by males. For a long time in our marriage I secretly wondered if he was "gay" - I knew he had been abused but not graphic details until his flooding earlier this yr. I would ask him seemingly out of the blue before his flooding experiences if he was "gay" - he had a "thing" for my butt that I felt was not quite healthy. I dont know how to explain it any other way than that as that is how it "felt" I had no hard knowledge. He would respond a very offended NO!
Since his disclosure of details of his flooding abuse memories -- & I sat & held him much as he talked as he flooded the memories -- he did say that he had the homoerotic fantasy's --- in other words for him to orgasm in & alone of our sex life he had to "replay the abuse" in his head to orgasm -- but it did not nor does it define his sexuality.
His abuse EFFECTED/ AFFECTS his sexuality he really struggled with his sexuality questioning himself more as a child shortly after the abuse ended. But he told me he has always KNOWN HE IS HETERO, -- as hubby2 said: "ya know how XXX told us he has always "just known" he was gay, well I "just know" I am hetero.
I've never questioned him again -- once I understood what he was doing was replaying the abuse in his head it made much sense to me --- he had to feel like a "victim again" to have the physical orgasm his brain was trained to let go with that stimulus at far too young of an age. He & I still work on not allowing the "old tapes to play" for orgasm -- for either of us -- and recently now we struggle with not just staying here we do that great but struggle to orgasm at all -- we have a blank sheet of paper to fill in but are at a loss as to what we are filling it in with for lack of a better explanation.
Hope this helps...
Now I have a question -- if he turns out to be "gay" what or how will that effect your relationship with him? Are you more concerned with having wasted time loving & supporting a "gay male" who happened to have been abused or is there some sort of "time security" by loving and supporting a hetero male who was abused by males?
Peace, Sammy


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#67723 - 09/22/03 09:40 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Hello Faith,

Let me tell you first, I am hetro, not gay.

I have had many gay fantasies, mostly when I am feeling depressed. This would coincide with the valleys in my sexual valleys, as you call it.

While I was being abused, I was depressed. In turn when I am depressed, my sexual fantasies revolved around the sex I was getting at that time, with a guy.

Our abuse gives us many unrealized and realized behavioral, emotional, and mental effects. They are usually not very pleasant. Some may make us to appear gay at times. It takes a bit of soul searching and recovering to determine where we really are.

This probably adds a bit more confusion to the question, but I hope it provides some insight.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#67724 - 09/23/03 12:47 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Not being an expert but being an abuse survivor of a different kind I have learned that during times of stress trauma/abuse survivors resort to those experiences/places in the mind where we were most traumatized - something that the abuse has "wired" into our brains. We often re-traumatize ourselves repeatedly for a long time when we are stressed or triggered until we figure out a) this is a problem and b) how to act or process things differently.

I think I can shed some light on this by drawing a parallel to my own experiences - for me who is not a SA survivor but physical and psychological abuse survivor and recently I've become aware that under extreme stress or when I'm triggered I resort to a certain type of horrific psychological (and on occasion physical torment) similar to/or recreating the feelings that I got when I suffered what was inflicted on me in my abuse experiences. I certainly dont consider myself a masochist even though I resort to self abuse or self-inflict psychological torment, or even when I seek out places where I could be tormented or hurt by others (always by a male). Its what was "given" to me in my own abuse experience and what I do when I'm all stressed and freaked out!

Using that as a parallel it just makes logical sense that if someone's abuse was sexual abuse at the hands of a male then that could easily be a mental place where they would go when they are triggered or under stress (this does not indicate that all men who are SA by men would go there but indeed some would and some do). So it does make sense to me that going to a mental place where someone fantasizes about sex with men would probably not indicate he is gay - it would just mean that it is a signal that he was under stress or triggered.

It's really all about how we were traumatized and how we are now "wired" because of that experience. Hopefully in this context you can try not to look at the sexual part of dealing with sexual abuse NOT as truly sexual - but that its more about re-enacting the abuse, which was sexual, than it is about sex or sexuality at all.

PAS


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#67725 - 09/23/03 01:07 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Faith:
Hello All,
I haven't posted in a while, but always find terrific guidance whenever I do. Here's my question: Is my fiance gay? (he's an adult male survivor - abused by males). I've asked this before, but am having doubts again. Why I'm having doubts: Our sex life has peaks & valleys - currently in a valley.



Faith: My BF and I we're currently in a valley too. My BF has started group therapy for SA survivors and all his old shit is being dragged up, add this to the fact that he is in the process of working through a case to prosecute his perp, as well as we are both under additional stress of planning our wedding. Since our engagement we've barely been sexual at all!! Just the stress of everything! I have to admit it is a concern but I am trying to have faith and put it all in context.

To be fair, I think MOST relationships have peaks and valleys, sexual or otherwise. I know of other friends who are not dealing with SA who did not have sex for five months prior to their own wedding as they too were struggling with relationship issues.

Quote:


Our level of intimacy has peaks & valleys - currently in a valley (there's not a lot of affection, hugs, kisses, etc.) He can only orgasm through oral sex. He's confessed to homoerotic fantasies but insists he's not gay.



Ok I'm going to be unbelievably candid here, and I do not consider myself gay at all and I am not even a survivor of SA but I too have had homoerotic fantasies, group sex fantasies with both men and women, etc. Maybe your fiance is merely bi-curious - our society does not always condone the fact that as humans we do have sexual curiosities and they do not always have to indicate anything at all. We are built to be sexual beings and sexual exploration is all part of it. A lot of what is considered 'normal' is also defined by society and culture. I dont know where you live (USA?) but I have spent time living in Quebec where the culture is very french/european and it really makes your head spin when you see the stuff on TV and listen to conversations and see cultural references to stuff that we in our "english" world find "wrong" or "gay" or whatever.

So.. just to reiterate - just because your bf has admitted to homoerotic fantasies does not mean he's gay!

With respect to him only being able to orgasm through oral sex, there are people who cannot orgasm through oral sex, those that can, for a variety of reasons. However, I would think that if your fiance was abused through oral sex this would be a powerful thing that he's battling and would contribute to this current situation. It may or may not indicate anything about being gay.

Quote:

I've asked him point blank about this and he again insists he's not gay and is starting to get irritated at my doubts (I don't blame him). I'm confused. I'm disheartened. I'm just generally feeling low. I can try to deal with all the other issues that come with loving an abused male, but if he's gay, what's the point?
I think the knowledge whether or not he is gay comes from a deep understanding of what really attracts him - if he is deeply satisfied in seeking out relationships with women.. or with men.. (or even possibly both).. but its really got to come from a deep feeling within him on what feels "right". From what you have indicated I dont think that what you are seeing/concerned about may be an indication of his sexuality at all. There may be other ways (although I am not sure what those would be nor could I guarantee he wouldnt find them hurtful/difficult based on the discussions you've already had with him on this) where you can explore this with him rather than focussing on the fact that he has homo-erotic fantasies and can only orgasm through oral sex.


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#67726 - 09/23/03 06:32 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Faith Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 11
Wow. Thank you everyone for your posts. It means a great deal to me, and I imagine for all the partners, to have this resource and insight available. Life with a survivor is a tough one, but also extremely rewarding. Sometimes it's hard to know how to react or feel about what your partner is saying or doing (or not doing). Regarding the issue I originally posted, deep down I know he's not gay. I've read just about every single post on this site as well as a ton of books on this issue and I understand that this is a common effect of past abuse. But like most, I have my moments where insecurity reigns supreme and I start doubting everything. Again, I can't thank you enough for replying to my post.


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#67727 - 09/24/03 12:06 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Good that this discussion helps - (and I'm writing this as much for you as for me) but its very important to keep in mind when you're struggling with this is that that folks suffering from the after effects of SA are confused with respect to sex and sexuality - and that our society has a very narrow definition of "acceptability" when it comes to sex.. that narrow definition i'm sure probably further stigmatizes SA survivors as they not only have a difficult time accepting what happened to them but the ways they have acted out or the ways that it still affects them now sexually. It must be really really hard for them.

Faith - for the record I too have TOTALLY been there with respect to being totally freaked out about the sexual effects of SA on my fiance.. last thing *I* wanted to know was all about his sexual acting out right after his abuse with a number of women he barely knew. Because he was molested by a man he was firmly convinced he was gay so he acted out with a lot of women to "compensate" for his erroneous convictions - (as he says "the only problem I thought I had with sex was that I wasn't getting enough"), and most of his encounters he was drugged out or drunk.... yeccch!!! I've had a brutally hard time dealing with that aspect of his sexual past, and I still do, and I still do struggle with the on again off again intimacy that happens (however this is fuelled by both of us from time to time). Safe to say that his sexual past still scares the SHIT out of me even though I'm wearing a shiny diamond engagement ring...

I've done a lot of soul searching and therapy on this over the past few years since I met my fiance and have realized that a lot of my insecurity comes from within me - the overwhelming NEED I have to have all kinds of PROOF that he's not going to leave me like my mentally ill alcoholic father or all the other jerks I dated (I've run all kinds of insane scenarios through my mind like "what if one of these women got pregnant during one of these past encounters, and she shows up on our doorstep in our newly married "happy home" with his kid and the pull of his love for this kid tears him away from me.. yadda yadda..) also for the record I've come to realize that this difficulty in accepting this aspect of his past has also found a place in my own psychological abuse re-dramatization as I explained before (during times of stress I have very obsessive graphic thoughts of him with these women - a way to psychologically torture myself and to keep him away, to destroy intimacy, and to prove that I am not loveable - to recreate the psychological torture I had for years in my past -how truly awful...)

Its one of those things that we have to be ready to handle when being with a SA survivor that it is totally part of the deal to love and accept them and not judge them even though they may be struggling with some sexual things that may make us really scared or uncomfortable. And for my situation anyway my fiance is not able to comfort me about his sexual difficulties and his sexual past as he has yet to make peace with these things. So we have to lean on each other and have to be sensitive to the fact that the last thing these guys need is for them to percieve that yet another person may not love and/or accept them...

Its hard because these are things that are difficult to talk about and get reassurance from -I mean as women we tend to talk to our girlfriends or moms or sisters about a lot of stuff - but there are just some things that you just cannot talk to these folks about (I mean can you imagine talking to your girlfriends - "hhm.. gee I was talking to my fiance the other day and he was talking again about his job stress and his difficult relationship with his boss and how that is triggering his homoerotic fantasies or how much it hurt him when he was involved in sexually acting out with that drug addict roommate he was sleeping with before we met who wound up pregnant with another guys' baby...... and I got really scared and insecure.. what do you think.. does he really love me......" and your friends who have no experience with this world would either stare at you with mouth open, be speechless, change the subject or strongly insist that you "dump the jerk"... which is totally not the right answer...

There just are few places where you can discuss these things in a frank and non-judgemental forum, which is why I totally love this board and the frank discussions that we have here. It just allows me to discuss those things that are almost un-discussable in the "mainstream of life"!!


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#67728 - 09/24/03 01:03 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Faith Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 11
Pas, thank you so much. You have such terrific insight into life with an SA survivor. You hit the nail on the head about not being able to discuss some of these things with my friends and family. Not only would it sound completely bizaare, but I feel it would be a breach of confidence with my partner, who struggled so hard in telling me. Thank goodness for this site and for partners like you who are going through the same things.

I also agree with your statement about how lots of these insecurities come from within ourselves. In all my relationships I've always had a fear of being abandoned which usually manifests itself with my sabotaging the relationship or just calling it quits without a fight. So living with an SA surivor just pushes those buttons sometimes (ie - when we're in a valley with little or no intimacy or sex, I think "of course it's me. I'm not sexy or lovable" or "he just doesn't love me anymore"). Now, I try to fight off those impulses to feed my insecurity and realize that it's not about me. In some ways this is the hardest relationship I've ever been in, but in so many ways it's unbelievably rewarding. The fact that it pushes all the buttons of my issues actually turns out to be a good thing because it forces me to address them. As corny as it sounds, I guess it's helping me to grow and be a better person and partner.


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#67729 - 09/24/03 02:31 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Whoo this is a great thread...

I totally understand about the confidence thing - for me in a few cases when my BF and I were not so close I have breached his confidence not because I wanted to but the pain and confusion and pain from his anger was so awful that I needed to talk to someone, anyone... he knows that I have breached some of his confidence a few times but he does not know exactly to whom I told things and what I told them... and I feel horrible and rotten and disloyal and guilty about it but so many times when things were going so wrong I just didnt know where to turn. Thankfully I only confided in a few very close friends who have been supportive but I do feel awful and guilty NOW knowing that they know, and that my fiance does not want them to know.

I am *so* there about the hardest but most rewarding relationship. I have found this so hard because of all the soul searching with MY life I've had to do to be comfortable with HIS past. It is very hard. I've had start to grow up a lot, learn a lot, cry a lot, I'm learning how to stand up for myself, learning how to stop acting like a scared baby, starting to figure out how to believe that somebody actually and truly loves me, to do things on my own when he is down or when things are going wrong, and to believe that everything will be ok and to do it without someone telling me that I will be ok. We are so in the same boat, sister!


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#67730 - 09/24/03 06:28 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Faith, PAS & Guize ~
Sheese! Super thought processes! and soooo on TARGET couldn't have said it better myself -- so I wont. One thing I noticed about myself in the relationship to Hubby2 is that I am like a damn LIONESS with her CUB when it comes to HIS issues! Thro in a healthy dose of MY ISSUES sa, physical etc... and we're on a good road to hell some days. Was just in today to see the crayon master about HIS issues vs MY issues & sex. BLECH what a messy weave of EVERYTHING in there.
I know its important to ask MYSELF some questions many times before I ask HIM. One is DO I NEED THIS INFO TO LOVE HIM & SUPPORT HIM? No it's not about DENIAL for me... for me its about am I triggering MY OWN SA or other abuse issues -- I've found my little codependant self is always more willing to "work on HIM than my own" after all WHO knows BEST ? how to take care of XXX because I LOVE HIM... silly when its said that way but I know my FEELINGS are NOT SILLY FOR HIM. And that is all that really matters. I am thankful I have a great therapist of MY OWN to confide in when its stress times, THANKFUL he has HIS OWN, ... and more thankful we aren't together so much right now or one or both of us would have hurt each other worse than we already hurt.
PAS - you said you broke confidentiallity a few times with some "chosen friends". Forgive yourself, .... there are so few of us & yep its not exactly lunch date topic to discuss with the "girls", but we DO need others for supporting us other than our therapists 24/7. I know there have been a few times I broke confidentiallity with Hubby2's issues. Did I feel guilty? Yes, about the first 3 times -- but then again I was disclosing to a girlfriend of 15 yrs also. WHO ALSO happens to LOVE hubby2 as much as she can. So, we need to live some LIFE I think in reality as we go along supporting our Partners. THAT means being HUMAN and having some urgent needs to just blurt and blab and not have it held against us in a court of law.
Hubby2 has dealt with supporting my SA issues for the past 15-16 yrs & I know he has told me he has told others of my SA -- I forgave him without a blink each time as each time it was someone HE trusted, and besides at the time I was in a mode of "TELL THE WHOLE DAMN WORLD I"VE BEEN HURT!" basically I was at a point of rage & anger @ those who hurt me so wanted everyone to know WHO it was who was so awful, I felt that I GAINED ALLIES when the "dirty secret" came out. HIS issues tho'.. well, they are different I am careful about WHAT & WHO & HOW I disclose and have asked if I can more now than in yrs ago as he is actually WORKING on his issues and I am not going to LIONESS CUB him too hard (Lord I pray everyday to NOT do that) I actually HARMED HIM from healing by doing this. Sad that it took so long to figure this out eh? -- alas we are forgiving people and more forgiving of each other. So forgive yourself of your indescrepancy if he can forgive you if it came back to bite you in the hiney... you are human. WE ALL ARE..
You're a SUPERB BUNCH HERE, its good to come here and know I am not alone in this part of our lives as his Partner.
Peace ~ another Sister in Healing, Sammy


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#67731 - 09/24/03 07:09 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
Quote:
you said you broke confidentiallity a few times with some "chosen friends"
Partners,

As far as breaking confidence goes, my approach was to tell my wife that I trust her to pick someone trustworthy if she needs to talk about how my sexual abuse affects her life today. As far as I know right now, she's only mentioned it to her Mom (a wonderful lady herself), but she (my wife) shouldn't have to deal with this by herself. I know if our roles were reversed and she were the survivor, I would want to have someone I could talk to.

Thanks,

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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#67732 - 09/25/03 06:32 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
just to go back to the beginning again-
I get a strong sense of the real reason I ( and probably many others ) use homo-erotic fantasies.

I think it's a lot less to do with 'actual sex' than I once thought, and much more to do with humiliation.

Some of you partners here have mentioned that you were physically and psychologically abused, and when you're under some kind of stress seek some kind of behaviours that bring you down even more.

Acting out does that to me, it makes me feel like shit.
And if I'm absolutely honest - I got pleasure from giving bj's, it's everything that goes with it I hate; and makes me feel so bad.

So if I enjoy doing it, but hate the 'acting out' scenario, why haven't I ever sought out a nice co-operative casual partner for some 'fun' on the side ?
Because there's no shame and guilt attached to it, that's why.

It's not the sex act, it's the feelings and emotions that I have associated with it that I seek , and like you have mentioned before, it's when we're down - we make ourselves worse. Drink, acting out, self harming, promiscuity, drugs and every self destructive act we can think of comes back to one thing I believe; they told us we were shit and we believed them.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#67733 - 09/26/03 10:52 AM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Faith Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 11
Just gotta say, I love this site. Unbelievably helpful.

Back to my original post regarding homoerotic fantasies and if that means the person is gay. I have done a lot of research on this, read books, talked to therapists. You name it. But what really helped put it into perspective was a private message that one of the amazing men here sent me. While I won't divulge the entire content of his message to me, the part that stuck and really made a whole lot of sense was the following:

It's not the gender towards whom you are sexually attracted, rather the gender towards whom you are relationship attracted. Sexual orientation is more about relationships than sex.

Wow. Pretty powerful and right on the money. Hope this helps all the other partners out there struggling with some of these issues. Not only was that message to me very helpful, but this entire thread, no make that, this entire site and all the incredible folks on here, are an absolute blessing.


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#67734 - 09/27/03 01:11 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Faith
Quote:
Sexual orientation is more about relationships than sex.
Spot on the money !

Our sexual acting out and fantasies are just the vehicle of choice for our self abusive re-enactments of our childhood abuse.
There's no sexual desire at all, no buzz like we feel in the presence of some who lights our fires.

I got 'A' buzz from acting out, but as someone said in a PM - that was also a feeling of fear and adreniline, it's close to the same feeling - maybe it even is the same feeling biologically ? but it's born in a diffewrent place from different parentage.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#67735 - 09/27/03 01:59 PM Re: Same Old Doubts & Insecurities
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Ya Ya Dave! ~
The "buzz" even for me in re victimizing myself -- whether so simple as NOT being around my parents vs being around them.
Most of it I bet if we could actually do a scan of our brains (i think this has & is done with pedophiles to find out if they are high risk to reoffend?) we would actually find that our brains ARE hardwired to our abuse. That physiologically & not just psychologically neurons chemical releases etc. occur with certain stimuli, whether we "conciously" like the the stimuli or not.
So the BUZZ is real, the adrenaline, or dopamines which ever chemicals are released in our brains that help us feel... calm, depressed, anxious, sexually stimulated etc.
So we battle with not just a psychological torture process but with a PHYSICAL torture process ... and if any of what I am saying is slightly close to reality.. well hell its no wonder I , "we" , anyone struggles with reprogramming... I cant even get my email to work properly 50% of the time! :p
Peace, Sammy


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