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#67172 - 07/25/03 10:36 AM Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
Hello All,

I understand all the comments to DF-specific issue and for the most part I agree. Your advice is good for where the situation seems to be at the moment.

Here is another slant from my own experience though. I have been "thrown out" of my CSA friend's life enough times to have lost count. It has been a rather seesaw experience - dealing with CSA that has affected him. (By now I have figured out that it happens when something goes wrong in his life and usually does not have anything to do with me. This is how I find out about it although I still do not know what went wrong.)

However, I followed my instinct and kept in touch anyway striving to keep balance between who I am and where he is so that I do not overreact. It has been a tough balance to keep. After nine months of no face-to-face contact, he suggested we meet to talk. We did meet and talk - more openly than ever before - and one of the comments he made was that it could not have happened except for all the things we shared so far. I read it that, if I did not stick around this would have never happened.

It was a good moment. Now we are back to some old patterns but they do not seem as intense/destructive as in the past. It still feels like progress and it still feels like a test.

HERE IS MY QUESTION: Have any of you seen/experienced this type of behavior: asking someone to leave while you pray to God they stay? Testing and retesting their "loyalty"?

Overall, it has been incredibly hard for me to stick around because as a rule I believe that people mean what they say so I take them at their word.

Thank you for your time.

Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

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#67173 - 07/25/03 02:50 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
stpbb Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 103
Freedom,
Yes, it is constant with my bf/ex. He definitely will push away & ask me to be there at the same time. Very confusing for me. I try to back off & respect the request for space & be available in a caring way as much as is possible for me. It is difficult, however. Not only do I generally take people for what they say, I think it is very important to respect what is said even when I know it isn't what he means.

What he says is a reflection of what he is feeling when he says it. To say 'he doesn't really want me to go' is disrespectful. At the same time, I have my own wants & needs & I have to respect those. Finding the balance is what is so hard.

Right now, he is pushing away again. We had some very close moments in the past week or so. When that happens, he seems to push away harder. I get discouraged because I am eternally optimistic, so when we have those close moments, I become hopeful. Then I am very disappointed when he pushes away again, even though I know on some level that it will keep happening while he is going through this.

The reaction to difficulties in his life definitely comes into our relationship. He still seems to put some kind of expectation on the realtionship to 'cure' him or help him overcome the pain. On one level that is good. In this case, however, it turns into a projection. So when things are bad he may come to me & seek out closeness & caring. Then if the problems permeate our relationship -- he says or does something that impacts me -- then the relationship is a part of the problem & no longer the cure. In effect, he blames me for not keeping total serenety & taking the pressure off of him. Of course, often I don't even know what it is & the stuff that comes out at me is upsetting so I can't not react. Sometimes I feel like I am supposed to be the mother that his wasn't: set bounaries, make room for growth, give unconditional love, let him leave & always be there for him to come back to, keep my problems out of his life as much as I can, but offer ideas & solutions for his life that will eventually allow him to stand on his own two feet & leave me behind. But I'm not his mother, so the relationship gets really muddy & unclear at these times. How many times can he push me away before I am too far to come back? Sometimes I think that is part of the scenario, a test to see if I'll still be there.

-BB.


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#67174 - 07/25/03 03:13 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
BB,

Thank you. Parts of what you write is like looking at something I have already experienced.

What I was talking about though is pushing and pulling at the same time. That is what I find difficult to deal with. The same email may have push elements as well as pull elements. For instance, "I do not think I am good for you, you are better off moving on." and "I thought you were going to call me on Friday."

Quote:
_________________________________________________

How many times can he push me away before I am too far to come back?
__________________________________________________

I have thought the same thing many times. I do not think about that any longer though.

As you said, you, or I, cannot know what we are not told. So I make decisions based on what I know and will have to live with the consequences.

Thank you again for your response and best of luck to you as you "muddle through".

Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

Top
#67175 - 07/25/03 03:21 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
BB,

Thank you. Parts of what you write is like looking at something I have already experienced.

What I was talking about though is pushing and pulling at the same time. That is what I find difficult to deal with. The same email may have push elements as well as pull elements. For instance, "I do not think I am good for you, you are better off moving on." and "I thought you were going to call me on Friday."

Quote:
_________________________________________________

How many times can he push me away before I am too far to come back?
__________________________________________________

I have thought the same thing many times. I do not think about that any longer though.

As you said, you, or I, cannot know what we are not told. So I make decisions based on what I know and will have to live with the consequences.

Thank you again for your response and best of luck to you as you "muddle through".

Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

Top
#67176 - 07/25/03 03:40 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
doctorfrau Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 60
Loc: West Virginia (NOT western Vir...
Freedom,

I have wondered about this "flip-side" of the situation as well. At least I know now that I am not the only person who has had to deal with this. Where I really struggle is, in "sticking around", how do you figure out what is being a friend/keeping in touch, and what crosses the line into being a clingy/stalker type? If he cuts you out of his life, but you (or I) keep making occasional contact, can that be misconstrued? If you give him what he says he wants (go away), then he thinks that you aren't loyal. But if you stick around (don't leave me) then he feels like his space is threatened. It seems like a no-win situation. I appreciate your frustration.

That is one of the reasons that I asked if I should "warn" Geraldo that I was coming. It seemed like the least threatening of the options -avoiding a surprise that might throw him for a loop. But then again, if he has tossed me from his life, then I don't owe him the courtesy.

It has taken this long for me to finally convince myself that it is HIS problem not mine. The thing that finally convinced me was this... I realized that he is the ONLY person ever in my life that has cut me off and refused to speak to me - whereas, for him I am just the latest in a long trail of relationship destruction. When we were still friends he told me about some of the people in his life that he had cut off and walked away from. What I am mad at myself about is that I didn't see it coming and thought I might somehow be immune to his pattern. I was wrong :rolleyes:
Anyhow, I'm learning to get over it and move on, even if he can't.


Kathy

_________________________
"...your choice, is what to DO with the time that you are given."

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#67177 - 07/25/03 05:08 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
Kathy,

Oh we, the eternal optimists! \:\) But seriously, I think you are doing the right thing but doing your thing and leaving the rest to chance. it does not pay to overthink it. I think it is the healthiest for you. Who knows where is is? You cannot read his mind. And even if you could it would probably change anyway.

I am beginning to suspect that it has something to do with an attempt (or desperate need?) to maintain control. I experience some of that but ever since I decided to follow my instincts, the whole thing is more bearable.

I hold myself responsible for my feelings only. Amazingly, this helped me realize the extremes he has been going to in trying to live his life. And when all is said and done, it does not make a difference what I do; it seems to be what he wants to see in it. I cannot control that and I do not try.

Lucky for me I am not romantically attached. So I can maintain certain level of objectivity.

Have fun with the biking event. Keep it simple and just enjoy the heck out of it.

I think you are a marvelous person for doing the things you do. You should be appreciated and not made feel guilty for trying. You have lots to be proud of!

Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

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#67178 - 07/25/03 09:46 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
stpbb Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/03
Posts: 103
I think another aspect of this is also the push pull that comes from testing on his part. I was really surprized to find out how much analysis he puts into his friendships, acquaintences, etc. Every experience is a test for him or a test for them. Every action is evidence.

I think the stuff about 'go on with your life, I'm not good enough' that I get from him is partly what he believes because he doesn't think a lot of himself, but also a check-in to see if I've finally figured out that he isn't good enough & that I've been wrong to think that I would want to be associated with him. So the insecurity comes out at the same time. (like, 'you need to move on & get a real boyfriend....are you going to cook me dinner tonight?')

At any rate, the advice to not overthink it is great. I try to understand, but not overanalyze. I am getting better at letting it be and realizing that his reactions are NOT due to my behavior.

-BB.


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#67179 - 07/26/03 12:16 PM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
Freedom Offline
Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 164
Loc: US
BB,

Understand perfectly. Sometimes I get the impression that if I did move on, I would get the reaction that says "See, that is the way it always happens." It is amazing how complicated these situations get.

The best way of dealing with it I found so far is to be true to myself. I also try to point out the discrepancies when the moment seems full of receptivity. It is a definitely a whole new way of communicating for me.

But it has also been a lesson in how to care about someone unconditionally.

Have a good one,
Freedom.

_________________________
Life is moving on. AM I?

Top
#67180 - 07/28/03 11:28 AM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
This is an interesting discussion - BOTH myself and my BF do the "come here go away" thing - we both crave intimacy but fear it... we both test each other's loyalty as we've both been abused (him sexually, me emotionally and verbally and physically) and betrayed (we've had previous partners who have cheated, I have been dumped in some stupendous and royally cruel ways, he was sexually abused by a male authority figure) We both battle for control and hurt each other majorly in the process on a regular basis (it is easing up however as we both continue our indivdual therapy)

For me, I do that kind of crap for sure as a test - its a way to egg out of him how much he really loves me and what he would do if he was faced with losing me. To shake him out of his comfort zone. However, the problem is that I should probably be looking for some security and peace and self-esteem within my own head and soul and not from him. I gotta find other ways to feel better about myself instead of solely from him. For him, he has told me he's so afraid of losing his own space, losing control over his own life and his own feelings (before he was abused sexually he was very controlled by a very bossy mother) that he pushes me away from time to time.

The key for us has been for him to learn to ask for space from time to time in a mature and adult way and not act like a baby or a spoiled brat jerk teenager in his asking. Besides, even healthy relationships have to have some space - and me being away from him for awhile from time to time (I'm not talking a long time but a few days here and there per month) is very healthy for me. And I have to be mature and not freak out and assume that every time he's asking for space he's not using that time to plan his escape from me nor does it mean that he doesnt like me anymore.


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#67181 - 07/28/03 11:29 AM Re: Spin Off from DoctorFrau "... from Pain in the Butt" Question
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
This is an interesting discussion - BOTH myself and my BF do the "come here go away" thing - we both crave intimacy but fear it... we both test each other's loyalty as we've both been abused (him sexually, me emotionally and verbally and physically) and betrayed (we've had previous partners who have cheated, I have been dumped in some stupendous and royally cruel ways, he was sexually abused by a male authority figure) We both battle for control and hurt each other majorly in the process on a regular basis (it is easing up however as we both continue our indivdual therapy)

For me, I do that kind of crap for sure as a test - its a way to egg out of him how much he really loves me and what he would do if he was faced with losing me. To shake him out of his comfort zone. However, the problem is that I should probably be looking for some security and peace and self-esteem within my own head and soul and not from him. I gotta find other ways to feel better about myself instead of solely from him. For him, he has told me he's so afraid of losing his own space, losing control over his own life and his own feelings (before he was abused sexually he was very controlled by a very bossy mother) that he pushes me away from time to time.

The key for us has been for him to learn to ask for space from time to time in a mature and adult way and not act like a baby or a spoiled brat jerk teenager in his asking. Besides, even healthy relationships have to have some space - and me being away from him for awhile from time to time (I'm not talking a long time but a few days here and there per month) is very healthy for me. And I have to be mature and not freak out and assume that every time he's asking for space he's not using that time to plan his escape from me nor does it mean that he doesnt like me anymore.


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