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#66999 - 11/08/06 08:08 PM whats going on?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
i come to the f and f forum ,cause i want to see what its like for people who have someone to be with instead of having to having to try to deal with this stuff alone. but what i read here sometimes makes me wonder ,most times makes me mad and at this time scares me. cause what i see happening over and over here is people who are good enough to put up with an abuse survivor ,posting things that sound like they come from a survivor! i hear wives and girlfriends saying ,im not good enough,maybe its my fault,i should be more understanding ,i feel betrayed,i feel hurt ,i feel like shit!this scares me because for lots of you its like you have become a victim of the abuse too. but its being done to you by someone who should know better, your survivor.i see family and friends rearranging their whole way of life to try to make it easier for the survivor ,i see people putting up with things that are decietfull ,and sometimes downright mean ,being made to feel guilt and blame and making excuses for the person that hurts them ! being a survivor is hard ,its not like anything non survivors can know ,but it does not give a person the right to say ok i'll do whatever i want to and if you dont accept it then you dont care,and i know you wont abandon me because i have used my abuse to trap you .its obvious to a survivor when someone feels sorry for you ,and that can become something you want and need .i think it can also stop any chance of healing for some people ,you feel sorry for me ,i like it,and if i get better then whos gonna feel sorry for me?one thing i dont see is the guys comming to the site ,you give them posts and show them the site,but they never come here ,why? maybe cause someone like me might tell them to appreciate what they have.
i think the relationship should be treated the same as a normal one the same rules should apply. if he screws around id kick his ass to the curb ,if he hurts you dont just take it . you deserve respect as much as he does right?

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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#67000 - 11/08/06 08:57 PM Re: whats going on?
Iwanttohelphim Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Norway
Thank you shadowkid,

I have just posted a very angry rant on my own thread. I read your post right after- right now-

and I wanted to say to you that all people are not the same. No child deserves or provokes abuse. No human adult does. But human beings are all different and some are couragous and some are evil and some are average and some extraordinary.

You, I suspect fall into the couragous and extraordinary category. i have read your posts for somemonths now- even given one to my survivor.

I think one of the hardest things for me to understand as a CSA survivor myself, who has gone through recovery, was why my X couldn't. I still struggle with this and have decided that since I will never know the answer- I have to stop asking the question.

In trying to find the answer though, I landed on what you said in the last line of your post. To Paraphrase- it is just like a normal relationship. If he is abusive just leave. I have come to realize that my X is not what I thought he was underneath the abuse. I thought that the abuse was responsible for his behavior and attitudes. While in a large part, I still beleive that it is true, I also have come to accept that, even had he not been abused, he is still a selfish and awful human being. I can find no other explanation.

I know the road of a survivor because I am one. I know the denial mechanisms and traps we put people into before we get help- to avoid getting help- out of fear.

But there is something that is broken in my X and he is now evil. There is no other way to say it. he is no one's victim anymore. he is a predator. He is 38 years old so there is no excuse. Denial is no longer an excuse either because he has been confronted about his abusive behavior face to face by me- and several other women. Prior to that, he admitted needing help, asked for help on a few occations and when help was given, he rejected it, in all of it's many forms.

At a certain point, I have to protect my own life. At a certain point I have to stop caring whether or not his self fulfilling prophecy is tragic. All I know is that it hurts me and shatters my dreams.

He is not you and you are not him. You are working your recovery, and from one survivor to another, I can say, I am so very proud of you. I know what it is like. You are stronger than most people will ever have to be. You have been touched by god's hand.

I don't know why you and the other survivors here have been blessed in the ways you have. I am grateful for this post of yours. I am glad to know that people who love you are in the forefront of your mind and so is how you treat them. You are you and you are a unique individual and a marvel.

Thanks for noticing that we are abused by our survivors- because they certainly don't see it that way- and when they deny it, it hurts more. Thanks for this post that says- don't tale it, you deserve better.

The thing that hurt me most about my relationship with my survivor was that he abused me and blamed me for it. he wouldn't have to abuse me if I would behave. And it is not really abuse..I just don't understand how things are done or how he needs to have things done.

The thing that hurts me most about my own behavior was that I bought into the idea that is was all my fault and that I could never do any better than an angry, abusive, violent man who could see nothing but his own controlling needs.

Shadowkid,you are a blessing to this world. You are a tower of strength and you are one of god's "angels", don't you ever forget it and always be proud of the man you are, no matter how unfair and arduous the road for you to get there.

All my best,

Bunny


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#67001 - 11/08/06 09:36 PM Re: whats going on?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
adam, I used to have dialogue with some of the women here, and sometimes you have to think that they are indeed survivors themselves.

Clashes are inevitable, but when you think that most survivors suffer from low self esteem etc., it is not impossible to think that a normal relationship is trying, even to the best of them.

Survivors dont know each other, they put up with it, and what may be strange to F&F is not strange to us, and vice versa.

If you had a gf who was hurt, she would probably do some cookie things that you dont understand, but male v female abuse it totally different just as the difference between different roles of each sex.

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#67002 - 11/08/06 10:35 PM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Thanks Adam for your insightful post. I have to say - and this may sound crazy - I laughed all the way down the highway after I read it, just thinking of the absurdity of how we all come to sound alike, survivors, all of us. I wish so much I could meet you and all the others in person, just so we could sit around and look at each other, put a face with a name. Here we nonsurvivors are, trying to help survivors up out of the abyss, and some of us are getting sucked down in there ourselves. It's absurd. Your post is very true, I think ,and I realized this morning that I have been walking on eggshells pretty much my whole marriage, just trying to make my husband, who has probably always had some form of depression, happy. And I used to do the same around my dad who had depression....always trying not to make noise or disturb things....keep things neat....Just realizing this today. Walking on eggshells has enabled my husband to continue on without seeking help. I am no longer going to try so hard to please him in those ways - he can't be pleased since he is depressed. It doesn't matter what I do, I can't make him happy. I just realized this! The other day he said, "I don't know, maybe I need to start over, quit my job..." Once again he is looking to change external things instead of looking inwardly at himself, where the TRUE PROBLEM lies. I NOW KNOW THIS AND IT IS EMPOWERING. I hope I can convey it to him but if he never listens then I guess we'll see what his rock-bottom is. That is sometimes what it takes for a person to seek help. Thanks again for your post.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#67003 - 11/08/06 11:00 PM Re: whats going on?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
adam, is trying to say, we have had enough of fighting, and would be so glad to meet someone like you guys, and I do too, but it is like taking in rescued animal.

Without the fuss \:\)

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#67004 - 11/09/06 12:39 AM Re: whats going on?
Iwanttohelphim Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Norway
Ste and Adam,

When you are far enough along in your recovery to be able to be in a committed relationship and it is GOOD FOR YOU, you will find one. The past issues will be under your control and they will not interfere. There will be some little things here and there, but the fact that you will have moved on and into another phase of your lives will absolutely in the most joyus and unforseeable way possible, make the past..treally the past.

It will be your reward for working on yourselves and in so doing, be able to find healthy partners. Women who are in their own right, healthy and individual and strong and bright. That is what is waiting for you at the end of the recovery road. You will get there. I just know it.

You will no longer be "rescue" animals, but decorated warriors returning home.

hugs,

Bunny


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#67005 - 11/09/06 01:09 AM Re: whats going on?
Iwanttohelphim Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Norway
Quote:
Originally posted by reality2k4:
but male v female abuse it totally different just as the difference between different roles of each sex.

ste
Ste,

I want to add something here as food for thought.

I peer counci men who are abused by their wives. They have been hospitalized, falsely arrested, thrown out of their homes, removed from their children, berated, belittled, emasculated, and emotionally and verbally abused in every way that is possible.

The myth that man on woman abuse is different than woman on man abuse, is just that- a myth. It is worse because the men are usually subscribing to the same myth- as are the police- and the courts- women don't abuse. A man can take it. he can just leave. Men are also humiliated to admit it and don't ask for help. Men are turned away from shelters..because they are for women. The local DV gotlines are unhelpful at best.

Abuse is abuse is abuse. It is immaterial why we abuse. If we abuse, we are abusers. Period.

Survivors who abuse us, just like any other type of abuser, have one thing in common: The inability to introspect and no emotion regulation skills. They all- every single abuser (excluding the sociopath)- do it for one reason. To get an emotional fix.

The excuse "I'm scared to lose her" "I have self esteem issues" "I have trust issues"- it's the "abuse excuse" "and all of this is because I was abused". It is BS. Total BS. There is no excuse to treat another human being this way, no matter how badly we were abused as children (I was CSA too).

The idea that we differentiate between the sex or age of the abuser is part of what keeps us trapped in the places we are in. It is time to say, enough is enough. Abuse is abuse and there is no justification. Because that is all this really is, a justification.

Men suffer the same trauma experience as women do. Men lose just as much in terms of self esteem. Men can not "take it" better than women.

Getting our immediate emotional needs met by the various methods which are abusive reflects on one thing only- that we are still emotional children and we have no empathy for anyone else. It is selfish and unacceptable. It is abuse. Abuse feels just as bad to a man as it does a woman and men are at a distinct disadvantage because they are less likely to be believed as well as they can not fight back when being physically attacked- they are conditioned not to do it and they know they will cause more damage then they want to- even just to get away.

It is very confusing for a man to be abused by his SO- because no one ever told him it could happen. How's that for a reality distortion?

Just food for thought.

Bunny


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#67006 - 11/09/06 02:06 AM Re: whats going on?
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Yes, being in love with a survivor is hard. Yes, sometimes, maybe a lot of times, the guy you love canít love you the way you want him to. Yes, sometimes he shuts you out just like he shuts out the rest of the world when he can. No, he is not allowed to be abusive. No, he is not allowed to make you feel like shit. No, he canít hide from you all of the time if he wants to be with you. No, he canít think only of himself if a relationship is what he wants.

I believe that most of the men on these boards and elsewhere know all of these things and try very hard to turn their lives and ways of thinking around so that they can be healthy people, able to be in love with a healthy woman.

My b/f doesnít come here because heís not prepared to. Heís is just coming to grips with what happened to him; he can not deal, yet, with the fact that itís happened to others. He feels the pain of other people much more profoundly than he feels his own. He still isnít comfortable with me coming here because he doesnít feel I should be affected by something so horrible as csa. Thatís silly of course, since I deal with it all the time, in the flesh, with him.

The men here and my b/f are working so hard. They are facing demons that destroyed their young lives. They go to therapy, they read books and they live with lack of sleep because of the nightmares. They are learning that they are men and they are learning how to be men. The perps in their past took a years long learning process away from them when they stunted their emotional growth. Now, they are grown up; they are emotional children in menís bodies. Relationships are foreign because the last one was beyond disastrous and destroyed their ability to trust and caused nothing but hurt.

In we come with our love and naivety. Our guys, the ones who want it, see something beautiful and they want it. A relationships starts, but it quickly gets too deep for them to handle because they plain and simple donít know how. We start to wonder whatís up? At some point we find out and we talk, maybe a lot maybe a little. We decide to learn and we come here. We find that we are not alone in our own feelings and we find that there are many other men, too many, who know exactly what our husbands and b/fs are going through. We all share and we all learn. Some make it; some donít. Some relationships are worth fighting for, others are not. Only the two people in it know which relationship they are in.

My guy can see and appreciate love - it makes him so happy and so sad at the same time because while he sees its beauty, he canít feel it but he wants to, so badly he wants to. Heís cried to me, begging me to tell him what itís like. I tell him I canít do that, but if he looks in my eyes, heíll see all of it directed at him. He wants to feel my love so I stay and keep loving him and he keeps working away at that horrible wall.

Itís all very complicated.

Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#67007 - 11/09/06 04:14 AM Re: whats going on?
sis Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 195
Loc: Arizona
WOW!! great posts. for me no kind of abuse is okay for me. I am in the healing process for my own csa and i won't allow anyone to abuse me. I have done enough self abuse for a life time and if i can't abuse me anymore then i will be damned if anyone else can. No more victim from me. I have had a tiny glimpse of the happiness that i so desperately need and want since my healing started. i am in it for the long hall. i want more, more good. for now i am happy to say that i am selecting to stay single and not even date at this time. reading some of the posts at F&F are full of relatioship pain. I can't do it. Maybe when i can say that i am truly happy with my life and my progress and that i accept me with everything in my past as just another part of me and i am okay, maybe then i'll venture out to the world again. The diffeence will be that i will be wearing different glasses, the world would have changed because i did. Thank you for the empowering words. light and luv, Sis


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#67008 - 11/09/06 02:02 PM Re: whats going on?
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Bunny, men are at a distinct disadvantage in many ways, especially how authorities treat them.
They are not so well equipped as women are to talk about this sort of thing.

Men bottle it all up, and explode sometimes, and you are right, there is nowhere to go when things go wrong.

Abuse taught me empathy, and a greater understanding of life.
Its hard to find a woman who will take you on, with all the long silences etc.

Like it or not, the silence is needed, and not intended to look less emotional,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#67009 - 11/09/06 10:47 PM Re: whats going on?
Iwanttohelphim Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Norway
Ste-

I agree 100% about your first comment in your last post. And I remarked about it in my own post.

That is different than your second comment and is unrelated.

While it may be hard to be a survivor (as I said, I am one, so I know)and it may seem like "silence" is the only thing a person can do...that really doesn't say much :-D Meaning. It is one thing to not disclose to every Tom Dick and Harry that we have experienced CSA- not because we are ashamed, but for the same reason I do not discuss my mentrual cycle or politics :-D. That is not the same as living life and being a recovered person with a life that is fulfilled in all other ways, daily life that is peaceful and not fraught with krangles.

Just because I was CSA, does not mean in my adult years, I have to sit in silence and make an unpleasant atmosphere- not talk about other things or be available emotionally for my loved one's. That is a choice I make, and everyone makes, to change it. Before recovery it sure seems like it is that way, and I understand why I used to beleive that way, but here on the "other side" I see that this was a beleif system ingrained by my abusers- I was all too glad to get rid of it.

I was all too glad to throw off the last vestiges of their chains - the isolation chains- those were the one's that kept me their victim the longest. Can you imagine that 20+ years beyond the acts, I was still being damaged by the messages they put into my head? I lost a marriage (before recent X) and 2 children (my 2 sons) died because I did something uncontionably irresponsible and stupid while being driven by those messages from my abusers.

Clearly the abusers did not have my best interests at heart. They programmed me to be silent and be isolated. If I did that, whose agenda did that serve?

When I started thinking about it in terms of the abusers interests versus my own....

Then I started thinking - hey! They don't want me to get better- so I did the opposite of everything they "trained" me to do- I was scared, but the only thing I knew was that I had been doing what I had been doing for so long- and NONE of it worked, to anyone's benefit, except the abusers. Not only didn't it work for me, but other people were getting hurt, I lost 2 children in the process. So what left did I have to lose?

There is a way to be where we are, when we are there, and not alienate others. But until we are at least in a place where we are able to be responsible for our emotions and responsible for upholding 50% (on average) of a partnership, we are not ready to be in a partnership. It does not mean we are deffective, it means we are still maturing. It means we are responsible enough to take care of ourselves well enough, before we make a promise to do so for another. "Pull down oxygen mask over your mouth, before assisting children or others".

It is unfair for us to give more than we can because we become depleted and don't restore- it is unfair to promise to give more than we can, because, then we are being dishonest and playing god with another person's life and heart and mind.

think the question is not whether it is easy or hard to find a woman to sit through the silences (I did it with my X and would continue to do it) it is a question of contemplative silence versus emotional withdrawel and puishment when we talk about it being abusive- and the "intention" is irrelevant. I can smash someone on the head with a baseball bat, intending to kill the mosquito sucking blood out of their scalp, or I can say, you have a mosquito on your head.

As a survivor, I know what it is to have flashbacks and feel uncomfortable, or have anxiety, or feelings I can't at all explain or deal with. i get it. But being a fully matured adult means that we find a way to be ourselves, without it being a burden for others to be with us. What I found out that means is a lot more simple than I thought. I thought there were lots of rules and lots of things everyone knew that I didn't and a right way and a wrong way. In fact, that thinking made it worse. I found out that all I had to do was be myself. "I feel uncomfortable, so I would like to sit quietly and think about it for a while. Thank you for being concerned about me. It makes me feel cared for that you asked." etc, etc.

The catch is that I had to learn who I was. And I did it in just that way. Being aware and being mindful of what I was feeling, and what my long term goals were. If I felt angry, but wanted to keep my relationship. I breathed and thought about what was the best reaction I could have for the relationship in the long run (for example). And I had to pretend (at first, until it became real) that I didn't care what anyone else thought.

We are all where we are at when we are there, but there are brighter days ahead for everyone who works their recovery. The sky is the limit, and as you said Ste- when we really look into our situations and go through recovery, one of the "benefits" we can pull out of the horrible experience is deepened empathy. I am so glad you are choosing life, choosing recovery and choosing to understand how deep your capacity for empathy can be. I am glad everyone on this board did. It is a testament to the human spirit and gives me hope in a time where I could otherwise (lean havily toward the negative) feel there is none.


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#67010 - 11/10/06 04:33 AM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Wow, what an amazing post! shadowkid was inspirational and everyone else's replies were jsut so great.

I have only posted on here a couple of times. I am/was living with my bf, a csa survivor.

I came here searching for answers about his behaviour.

We are a little more than halfway through a month of him being 5,000 miles away. I found out he had been cheating on me the entire relationship a day before he left.

I have felt so unloved and neglected for so much of this relationship dying to love this man and for him to accept mine in return. He says he loves me and yet, constantly tells me that he is uncertain. Always uncertain.

Anyway, before he left (face-to-face) and after he left via email, I told him that I forgive all his mistakes and I would be willing to work through anything as long as I knew he wanted to face it together. I was very hopeful that this was a breakthrough for us.

He told me that I was the best thing that ever happened to him, and many other wonderful things, but STILL doubtful of himself, or his love, I don't know anymore.

But I have been so hurt and for the 1st time in 1.5 years I was the one that needed space and time to myself. So I didn't answer his calls for a few days. He left a message finally that he guesses I've ended the relationship and he's fine with that, he won't call me anymore.

And he hasn't.

So this is probably my last post anyway, but what I have been thinking for months now, especially these past couple of weeks, is EXACTLY what shadowkid said!!

That if I allow him to abuse me, in so many various forms, and continue to 'be here for him' ALL I am doing is allowing him to use me as a crutch and avoid healing.

I am not a csa survivor, but I had my own pretty bad traumas to struggle through, and at 33 I am still actively healing and facing these issues. And I have realized that MY own struggle is what makes me stronger and more able to feel compassion and understanding and patience for another who was abused, and in my bf's case, a person that I loved with all my being and would have done anything to make us both happy.

And yet he refuses to grow or learn or try to come outside of himself and accept my offer of love and kindness and happiness. And is that ok? Acceptable just because he was abused? Hell no. If he really believed that I was the best thing that ever happened to him, then he would SHOW me through his actions.

He was hurt when he was young, but he is not retarded. He is one of the smartest people I've ever met. He is CHOOSING to suffer and continue to let the pain of his past become the pain of the future.

And it's heartbreaking to me, but if that's the place he is in, then I have to accept it with the knowledge that I have no influence over what he decides is his destiny.

It's such a shame because he is a beautiful soul trapped inside the body of a beautiful soul. I thought the reality of having truly lost me would shock him into action.

What a fool I was.

Now I'm off to find happiness elsewhere.

I am a hopeless, idealistic romantic. Either despite or because of MY own pains. And now I realize that I NEED someone who is just as hopelessly optimistic as me! Someone who isn;t AFRAID to tell me he loves me, but who feels truly blessed to be lucky enough to have any love at all!

You know, a week ago I wouldn't have had the guts to write a post like this. But now I see, all this time I wished that my bf would reach into the depths of his soul and find some truth, and hopefully see ME in there, but for the millionth time he leaves me to wallow in the misery he caused me all by myself.

So poo on him! Of all people HE should know how crappy that feels!

Thanks for your inspiring words.

I just hope one day my love would wish to be happy himself. peace.

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67011 - 11/10/06 12:11 PM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
Hi Kat,

I'm sorry things have turned out the way they have for you with this man you so love.......But, at least you've kept some dignity.


Dignity is something I've never really had in my relationship. I have more or less BEGGED for the things I've needed for years. I walked right into it without any of those things there for me. I made a mess of things years ago becaue of my own inability to TALK about those things and work towards some kind of intimacy. I've never felt safe/protected/desired by bf. I've been SO nervous. Even though I made a mistake years ago, I have always passionately expressed my commitment to him. He is beginning to express moderated amounts of it, but it's not enough for me yet and I'm not accepting it anymore in a way which makes everything seem ok. It's not all ok for me. I need to know my partner is SURE of being with me. I need to know the passion behind that. I need to see it and feel it and I need it to come from him without promting or desperation on my part. I think I'm becomming less co-dependant in that way. He always looks sorry for himself if there's things I need, or takes it as some kind of attack. I'm now coming to the conclusion that that's his stuff to sort out. MY stuff is the fact that I CANNOT fully love him and connect with him, or feel safe enough to get too close without those things. I've been like a lap dog for years, following him round, feeling sorry for him, feeling like I've hurt him.

Having said all that, I poured my love into him/our relationship in a kind of unconditional way for years and I don't regrett that. I did love him that much that it seems I was willing to put up with what was missing, as it felt so right in so many other ways when I was by his side.

If I'd known in words with a whole explanation about all his uncertainty all those years ago, would I have stayed? I really don't know. I don't actually think I would have done to be honest. I would have set a distance between us till he could reassure me I was the ONE for him.

The fact is Kat, you very likely could be the ONE for him. I don't blame you at all for the distance you need and perhaps he will come to you. Perhaps he'll really put his mind to sorting himself out a bit, to get to the point where he can claim what he really wants. Which is what most people really want, which is to be close to someone they love. To lie in their arms and celebrate their love. Just because he hasn't called you doesn't mean he doesn't feel that for you. It's more likely to mean he feels he 'can't' have that. He's nervous he can never give you what you want. He's nervous about other things he wants and what they might mean about him. He's not closely in touch enough with his HEART. I've been in a space like that, except I think I've been lucky enough to have just enough trust in my core feelings to understand what might be right for me.

What were the messages he left for you?
Have you ended the relationship?
If he sorted himself out a bit and could give you some reassurance, would you be prepared to be with him then?
Do you really want to be with him, but are too afraid in case he doesn't really want you?
What if he does want you, but just doesn't know how to communicate in a way which would make a woman feel loved/cherished/adored etc?
What if, in time, he could learn those types of communication skills?


I'm a hopeless romantic too and so many of my dreams have been broken, but I'm fighting for them now. I'm setting boundaries. Perhaps you could also set some boundaries and maybe not totally break off all communication. He might really need to know you do actually want him. If you told him you really do want him, but need to feel he is more certain, that would be something? Perhaps that would give him some kind of goal?

It seems a shame to break off all communication and not reply at all to him......

just some thoughts,

peace
Beccy


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#67012 - 11/10/06 07:23 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Hi Beccy!

Thank you so much for your thoughts and questions!

Here are the answers:

What were the messages he left for you?

He emailed me in response to my email in which I was upset that he has told me, "I've been thinking of you a lot, I guess that means I miss you, I think." I felt he was STILL being so distant and refusing to be vulnerable. His response was lovely at parts, he told me that "...almost every pleasure i get from this trip i think to myself how much i wish you were here with me and then i feel sad and mad, mad at you and my self and then its no longer fun..."

But in the same email he says, "i think that what i have done is unforgivable and trusting me now is impossible, but after taking this monkey off my back, i have no intention to lie to you anymore..." BUT STILL MORE, "i hope that when i am back you will be there and if what i feel now is not only because i miss you, i will see you in your best happiness all the time."

I know that those are some wonderful things, but I can't help but see all the doubt still heavily saturating all those wonderful things. Before I would have not even seen those things, But now I can't IGNORE IT. I need so much for him to come outside himself and his doubt and just tell me that he loves me and needs me, to ASK me to forgive him and tell me that he wants me to trust him!

The voice mail he left me, a day after I did not respond to his email (above) he said that he 'guesses I have decided to end the relationship, which is fine with him, and he hopes when he comes back we can come up with a decent agreement and go our separate ways."

I did listen to it multiple times ;\ and I realized that THAT message was FULL of 'um's and pauses, and sadness. I know he loves me.

Have you ended the relationship?

NO.

I can not call him (his cell isn't working overseas). I can not text msg him. I can only email him and wait for however many days until he is able to get to a computer. I finally emailed him last night after 8 days of shutting him out. I have pretty much spelled out for him exactly what I feel and needed from him. He has known without a doubt for the last year, that I love him and that I want to be with him in a real solid way.

If he sorted himself out a bit and could give you some reassurance, would you be prepared to be with him then?

Yes.

If he told me he was certain of NOTHING except his love for me, and he wasn't even sure HOW we would get through it, but that he wanted too, I would love him my best for as long as possible.

Do you really want to be with him, but are too afraid in case he doesn't really want you?

EXACTLY.

I feel that I am willing to give my life to him, but yet he is incapable of even once saying that he needs me or wants me with any certainty.

What if he does want you, but just doesn't know how to communicate in a way which would make a woman feel loved/cherished/adored etc? What if, in time, he could learn those types of communication skills?

If he asks me to stay with him and work through it, i will. But I cannot agree to staying with him just because I love him, while he continues to ignore these issues, and refuses to be vulnerable or assure me of his love in anyway.

*****

I'm a hopeless romantic too and so many of my dreams have been broken, but I'm fighting for them now. I'm setting boundaries. Perhaps you could also set some boundaries and maybe not totally break off all communication. He might really need to know you do actually want him. If you told him you really do want him, but need to feel he is more certain, that would be something? Perhaps that would give him some kind of goal?

It seems a shame to break off all communication and not reply at all to him......


So, like I said, I emailed him last night finally. With him being 10 hours ahead of me, and not having easy access to a computer, I don't know how long it will take for him to see my email, or when, if, or how he will respond.

Sometimes I feel convinced that although I have no doubts that he loves me (in fact I feel more certain of his love than he does) that THAT is NOT going to be the catalyst to propel him into action and healing. I know he must find this desire in himself! And I can love him unconditionally for all eternity, but if he doesn't want to grow, and I don't insist that he does, than that is NOT good love after all.

It's up to him now...

Thank you SOO much for your concern and time.

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67013 - 11/10/06 09:12 PM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
Katherinew,

I read what you wrote and thought how right you are. If your love has been well expressed, indeed the point now would be for him to be willing to express the same back to you. It sound to me like he most probably will. He sounds like he's being defensive in order to not seem 'bothered'. I see your point about the unwillingness to be vulnerable........

wishing you all the best with him, or without him \:\)


peace
Beccy


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#67014 - 11/10/06 10:54 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Thank you so much Beccy!

I still havr unending hope for him and for us.

It's amazing to me that I love this man enough to feel that I long for his happiness, truly, even if that is without me. And that I long for happiness for myself enough to realize that if it IS with him, it has to be mutual.

I don't know if this issue of feeling CERTAIN and also willing to express vulnerability stems from the csa or not, but if this beautiful man found the courage to break through these barriers, my goodness, the sky's the limit!

I have learned:

Doubt Kills

Hope Inspires

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67015 - 11/10/06 11:02 PM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Trish, you said, about your bf wondering what feeling love is like, "Heís cried to me, begging me to tell him what it's like." -- all I can say is, this is heartbreaking and yet it sounds so hopeful too. Sometimes I wonder if it'd be better if just some catastrophic happened to them to FORCE the wall down, force them to feel everything, would be better than them trying to take the wall down themselves, which is so hard to do.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#67016 - 11/10/06 11:34 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
BH~

what you said, "Sometimes I wonder if it'd be better if just some catastrophic happened to them to FORCE the wall down, force them to feel everything, would be better than them trying to take the wall down themselves, which is so hard to do."

is EXACTLY what I am hoping will happen for me and bf. That somehow he will see the light on his own.

The hard part about this is allowing what will happen to happen, and accepting, 1. that I have no control, and 2. that it might not work out in my favor.

But love is a risk regardless. As long as I have a clear conscious that I have loved him good and strong, and stepped back enough to let his love come out of his head and into MY reality (I think beccy may have said in another post something about her bf never comes into her space, she always has to go into his) then maybe we have a chance.

If you ask yourself honestly if your mate is loving you well, and truly being your partner, and the answer is no, then continuing in the same way is only going to bring more of the same.

Sometimes the shock of reality can truly be an epiphany for some.

Sorry to go on and on but I have 1 more thing to say. All my life, in dealing with my OWN struggleS I realized that NO ONE ever demanding more from me. If someone saw my weaknesses or faults, they would just turn the other way. But to have someone that loves you ENOUGH to demand that you try to be the best that you can be, and ASK you to grow, to treat you as if they believe that you can, and to stick by you side all the while, that is something I have never had and long for. Maybe that is why I see now that I must offer the same to my bf. To push him, lovingly and gently, but push him nonetheless, toward the truth that it does get better!

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67017 - 11/11/06 01:10 AM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
I am feeling really nervous again about how my bf really feels about me.....

I feel like my bf's resistance to showing any vulnerabilty causes me a lot of worry. I find I am endlessly paranoid and nervous and I'm fairly sure that's not just down to my own problems.

Yet a lot of the rest of the time he tells me he loves me and is lovely to me. I feel he's covering up a lot of himself and it does make me worry about wether or not he is comfortable enough with me as a partner. Actually sometimes it's quite like if I express my own vulnerability to him (inecuritys ect), he is quite mean to me. He said this directly relates to the csa. In the recent realisation of this and other similar things, I am now trying to just concentrate on my side of things, which is I feel hurt when this happens. At the moment, I'm really feeling very much like he doesn't really want me at all. It just doesn't make sense because of how lovely he is towards me the rest of the time.

I don't know, I'm just in a permanent state of anxiety I think,
peace
Beccy


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#67018 - 11/11/06 01:59 AM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
MAYBE WE'RE JUST NOT BEING PATIENT ENOUGH. MAYBE THIS IS JUST GOING TO TAKE T I M E . Our posts change day by day, but how can we really expect much to change in a week, or even a month? Today I am reminded of when I myself had a wall up in high school, just depressed, but it looked like I had a big chip on my shoulder, I was angry, etc. My parents could NOT get through to me. This has to be similar. And I remember their long lectures only made me put more of a wall up. If only they had perhaps been more aware of my depression, my sadness, than treating me harshly because of my anger, if only they had been more patient and tender and perhaps given me some space and understood when I needed to be off by myself... I thought of all this today.

That hard time in my life finally ended, but I think it took about 3 years? Something like that, anyway, it took a while, I never sought counseling, I just had to let it run its course. And actually sometimes today I am still angry inside about some of the stuff. I notice it mostly when I'm stretched thin, and my patience is running low and I'm tired, and I hear myself inside my head saying like, "Stupid b----" when a lady pulls out in front of me. Then I realize, wow, where did that come from? And I know it's still from way back when.

I almost think of approaching it as if the men are a depressed teenager, resistant, withdrawn, a lot of similar stuff......only they would advise parents to even call on the teen's friends to assist....as teens listen to their friends better than their parents....so should we try to enlist help of any of our men's few shallow friends? Probably not, right?? I'm only saying if we should, we would only mention that our men are depressed, can you help him come out of his shell a little....I know we should never mention the abuse to others....anyway, you'll probably say, no, they're grown men, and if we go trying to enlist others to help them they will probably only retreat more and get angry at us.

But it IS kind of like we're the parent in a way sometimes. And their behavior is so juvenile, even childish, at times.

Anyway, it helped me a little to remember when I myself had a wall up against my parents in high school - my dad had lost his business, he was depressed, my mom was stressed, she suggested I might have to go live with relatives if they couldn't afford to keep me, my grades plummeted, I worried about us losing our home, etc., etc. So I remember being depressed/angry for a VERY long time. And my solace didn't come from my parents, it came from hanging out w/ friends, who didn't ask what was wrong, they would just commisserate or just let me be quiet if I wanted to, and I felt comfortable with them.

I think right now I need to just try to be quiet maybe, and let my husband have his space, his alone time, not pressure, but react more to the fact that he is sad rather than take offense at any of his anger....just let him be, if you will, and gently let him know I'm always available to talk, and all the while though still reiterating that we need to be "real" with each other, so that the WALL is acknowledged maybe rather than the problems.

It's just hard when you wonder how depressed they ARE, like are they suicidal? Then what is the correct thing to do? If we let them retreat too much they might think we don't care or don't notice that they're in trouble. So here we go again, it's such a delicate balance.

I know we all write daily, sometimes several times a day, so the updates are very often....and I know I wouldn't be able to write only monthly, but maybe we should try to take assessments of how things are going only about once a month, rather than once a day, since progress is so slow we're not going to notice it at that rate, and we get frustrated. What do you think?

Sigh.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#67019 - 11/11/06 02:04 AM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Hi Again,

Well I will chime in with my .02 cents since you were so very helpful with me.

I think this thing you said is very revealing:

Actually sometimes it's quite like if I express my own vulnerability to him (insecurities etc.), he is quite mean to me.

It sounds like YOUR vulnerability makes HIM feel vulnerable, which I would guess he feels very uncomfortable with. (Didn't we already figure out that our bf's shared the same 'type' of abuse?) So because he is uncomfortable with it, he lashes out at you and is mean. This is just a guess.

You also said, I feel he's covering up a lot of himself and it does make me worry about wether or not he is comfortable enough with me as a partner.

I felt almost my entire relationship that my bf was 'covering up a lot of himself'. When I would mention anything about it he would always either deny, or say HE DOESN'T KNOW. When in fact he DID know and there WAS a ton of things he was hiding. But I know now that none of that was because he didn't love me or not feeling comfortable with me, but more about his own doubts about him self, and not feeling comfortable at all with all the pain inside him. At times he seemed to be lost in an abyss of blackness and pain, but totally vague, with no beginning, end, or definition. I think THIS is the thing that he was covering, this inexplicable pain.

You sound like a really great woman. And you also seem to finally be ready to grow yourself. I know that you have been with bf for 12 years (right?) and that to change things now will be an uphill battle at best. But maybe the more you are able to remove yourself (in your mind) from his issues, then maybe you can begin to see more clearly what his issues really are, and how best for you to function in that reality, without taking the burden of the feeling bad on yourself.

Almost as if you are a parent with a child that has some disability (in bf's case emotional disability) and you can see from the adult point of view that when your 'child' is being hurtful toward you, or doing/saying something destructive, you can see it for what it is and not get caught up in 'whoa is me'. Maybe in some way you need to do that w/bf so you can remain detached in a sense.

You detach your own understanding of self worth from his actions and behaviours because you recognize that he is coming from an unhealthy place. Does that make ANY sense?

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67020 - 11/11/06 02:16 AM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Like when my 3 yr old throws a terrible, angry tantrum, I never wonder, "Oh, no, it looks like she doesn't love me anymore..." Instead I know that she is hurt or tired and needs TLC and rest.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#67021 - 11/11/06 02:49 AM Re: whats going on?
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
I've been trying for days to think of a way to turn this thread around. I thought maybe my original post would do it, but it didn't so I've stayed silent because I just didnít know what to say. BH and Kat your thoughts here are on the money and BH your last post especially hit the nail on the head. While our guys are certainly not 3 year olds, the analogy is perfect.

When we're hurt, any of us, we want to lash out at whatever is causing the pain. If the hurt is bad enough and the cause isn't readily accessible, then whoever the poor soul is who may find themselves closest gets the lash. The old saying "you always hurt the one you love" is very true in this situation because the one you love is the one you hope and pray will not to turn away.

We are the closest to our men. That probably causes as much fear as it does comfort. Like it or not, we see them for what they are and we love them. They don't know why and can't even believe it because they don't love themselves and they are constantly trying to "prove" how unworthy they are. Sometimes, as in my b/f's case, he comes right out and says "Why do you love me, I don't deserve it." That's heartbreaking. Other times, they deliberately try to push us away, almost challenging us to keep loving them, but not letting us in on the fact that there's a confrontation underway that we need to deal with. All we see is an undeserved shove so we want to strike back and protect ourselves. Thatís a natural reaction thatís as difficult for us to unlearn as it is for our men to learn not to do it.

Yes, it does take years. My b/f was first in therapy for this mess 12-13 years ago. His life at the time was a horror that was only made worse by trying to deal with this, so he didn't. Now he's confronting it again. I believe that this time he will be successful, but he's not picking up where he left off, he's starting all over again.

There are years worth of hurt to undo. It doesnít happen quickly for our men or us.

ROCK ON.........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#67022 - 11/11/06 03:43 AM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Trish-All we see is an undeserved shove so we want to strike back and protect ourselves. Thatís a natural reaction thatís as difficult for us to unlearn as it is for our men to learn not to do it.

AS much as I feel each time that I visit this site that I need to stop, since I'm not even speaking to bf right now, and not knowing what is going to happen, I keep coming here anyway because I need some understanding.

Then I read things like this quote of Trish's, and ALL of the things you all say here are SO true for my situation its shocking.

At times I feel so alone here, with bf 5,000 miles and my own family 2,000 miles away, I am left to deal with ALL this completely alone.

This is a quote from my own journal that I keep from about a week ago's angry rant to myself, "I hate loving him and feeling constantly brushed aside with an angry shove but then held down and forced to watch my own heart be ripped apart. UGH JUST SHOVE IT DOWN MY THROAT!@!!"

Somehow you ALL reach so deeply into my own feelings and somehow sharing (and reading) your own very similar experiences makes me feel less crazy and less alone.

And the fact is that whether or not things work out with me & bf, I AM in love with him, I AM going through all this too, and I need a way to find some comfort and solace. So thank you, all so much, for not even knowing me but helping me through by sharing your own experiences.

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67023 - 11/11/06 08:32 PM Re: whats going on?
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hi shadow,

My partner is a member here and I think he would agree with most of what you are saying.

I did not stay with him because he disclosed. I stayed with him because he was working on himself and getting better. If he hadn't disclosed abuse to me, though, I would have had no explanation for some of the things that had hurt me, and I probably wouldn't have been able to put that past behind me and move forward with him.

I hear what you are saying about survivors liking people to feel sorry for them and then not moving forward. But I do believe that it takes two people for that pattern to develop in a relationship. As partners we need to look at ourselves too and figure out why we allow or excuse some things.

SAR


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#67024 - 11/18/06 03:15 AM Re: whats going on?
weepywife Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 57
Hi Shadow,
Your post really got me thinking and I felt it deserved a reply. You seem to want to know the good side of being in a relationship with a surviver. I think it is probably frustrating for you to read our posts because this is where we go to vent and complain. This board is our therapy and a lot of stuff gets dumped here.
I haven't been posting in a while because I have come to some conclusions about my own relationship.
1) It was unhealthy for me to be coming to the site too much because it made me dwell on the things in my relationship that I was unsatisfied with and wanted changed (namely intimicy) Unfortunately I can't change this.
2) I began blamming everything in our relationship on my husband being a surviver....granted there are problems that come with this but every relationship has problems
3) I was holding a pitty party for myself poor me who isn't getting intimacy and is married to a surviver

Well, my husband is still refusing to go to therapy. But he needs to deal with things in his own way. My wanting to change him was not helping the situation. And really the only thing that is missing in our relationship is the physical intimacy. The rest of the relationship is great. And he's trying I know he is. Will he ever be able to overcome this...I hope so. If he doesn't.....well at times I still get sad and think I want kids. But I am also realizing that no relationship is perfect. I have a great, funny, smart husband who I love dearly. I have never met any one else I would rather be with ever....and why don't I just appreciate what I have and not continue to be unsatisfied with what I am missing.


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#67025 - 11/18/06 04:33 AM Re: whats going on?
shadowkid Offline
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437
thats what im saying to the survivors !!exactly!my point was that we dont know what we got till its gone ,or we never had it at all. your last line says it all. the good side of being in a relationship with a survivor would be having someone like you . shadow

_________________________
its not hard to fall
when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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