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#67009 - 11/09/06 10:47 PM Re: whats going on?
Iwanttohelphim Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Norway
Ste-

I agree 100% about your first comment in your last post. And I remarked about it in my own post.

That is different than your second comment and is unrelated.

While it may be hard to be a survivor (as I said, I am one, so I know)and it may seem like "silence" is the only thing a person can do...that really doesn't say much :-D Meaning. It is one thing to not disclose to every Tom Dick and Harry that we have experienced CSA- not because we are ashamed, but for the same reason I do not discuss my mentrual cycle or politics :-D. That is not the same as living life and being a recovered person with a life that is fulfilled in all other ways, daily life that is peaceful and not fraught with krangles.

Just because I was CSA, does not mean in my adult years, I have to sit in silence and make an unpleasant atmosphere- not talk about other things or be available emotionally for my loved one's. That is a choice I make, and everyone makes, to change it. Before recovery it sure seems like it is that way, and I understand why I used to beleive that way, but here on the "other side" I see that this was a beleif system ingrained by my abusers- I was all too glad to get rid of it.

I was all too glad to throw off the last vestiges of their chains - the isolation chains- those were the one's that kept me their victim the longest. Can you imagine that 20+ years beyond the acts, I was still being damaged by the messages they put into my head? I lost a marriage (before recent X) and 2 children (my 2 sons) died because I did something uncontionably irresponsible and stupid while being driven by those messages from my abusers.

Clearly the abusers did not have my best interests at heart. They programmed me to be silent and be isolated. If I did that, whose agenda did that serve?

When I started thinking about it in terms of the abusers interests versus my own....

Then I started thinking - hey! They don't want me to get better- so I did the opposite of everything they "trained" me to do- I was scared, but the only thing I knew was that I had been doing what I had been doing for so long- and NONE of it worked, to anyone's benefit, except the abusers. Not only didn't it work for me, but other people were getting hurt, I lost 2 children in the process. So what left did I have to lose?

There is a way to be where we are, when we are there, and not alienate others. But until we are at least in a place where we are able to be responsible for our emotions and responsible for upholding 50% (on average) of a partnership, we are not ready to be in a partnership. It does not mean we are deffective, it means we are still maturing. It means we are responsible enough to take care of ourselves well enough, before we make a promise to do so for another. "Pull down oxygen mask over your mouth, before assisting children or others".

It is unfair for us to give more than we can because we become depleted and don't restore- it is unfair to promise to give more than we can, because, then we are being dishonest and playing god with another person's life and heart and mind.

think the question is not whether it is easy or hard to find a woman to sit through the silences (I did it with my X and would continue to do it) it is a question of contemplative silence versus emotional withdrawel and puishment when we talk about it being abusive- and the "intention" is irrelevant. I can smash someone on the head with a baseball bat, intending to kill the mosquito sucking blood out of their scalp, or I can say, you have a mosquito on your head.

As a survivor, I know what it is to have flashbacks and feel uncomfortable, or have anxiety, or feelings I can't at all explain or deal with. i get it. But being a fully matured adult means that we find a way to be ourselves, without it being a burden for others to be with us. What I found out that means is a lot more simple than I thought. I thought there were lots of rules and lots of things everyone knew that I didn't and a right way and a wrong way. In fact, that thinking made it worse. I found out that all I had to do was be myself. "I feel uncomfortable, so I would like to sit quietly and think about it for a while. Thank you for being concerned about me. It makes me feel cared for that you asked." etc, etc.

The catch is that I had to learn who I was. And I did it in just that way. Being aware and being mindful of what I was feeling, and what my long term goals were. If I felt angry, but wanted to keep my relationship. I breathed and thought about what was the best reaction I could have for the relationship in the long run (for example). And I had to pretend (at first, until it became real) that I didn't care what anyone else thought.

We are all where we are at when we are there, but there are brighter days ahead for everyone who works their recovery. The sky is the limit, and as you said Ste- when we really look into our situations and go through recovery, one of the "benefits" we can pull out of the horrible experience is deepened empathy. I am so glad you are choosing life, choosing recovery and choosing to understand how deep your capacity for empathy can be. I am glad everyone on this board did. It is a testament to the human spirit and gives me hope in a time where I could otherwise (lean havily toward the negative) feel there is none.


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#67010 - 11/10/06 04:33 AM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Wow, what an amazing post! shadowkid was inspirational and everyone else's replies were jsut so great.

I have only posted on here a couple of times. I am/was living with my bf, a csa survivor.

I came here searching for answers about his behaviour.

We are a little more than halfway through a month of him being 5,000 miles away. I found out he had been cheating on me the entire relationship a day before he left.

I have felt so unloved and neglected for so much of this relationship dying to love this man and for him to accept mine in return. He says he loves me and yet, constantly tells me that he is uncertain. Always uncertain.

Anyway, before he left (face-to-face) and after he left via email, I told him that I forgive all his mistakes and I would be willing to work through anything as long as I knew he wanted to face it together. I was very hopeful that this was a breakthrough for us.

He told me that I was the best thing that ever happened to him, and many other wonderful things, but STILL doubtful of himself, or his love, I don't know anymore.

But I have been so hurt and for the 1st time in 1.5 years I was the one that needed space and time to myself. So I didn't answer his calls for a few days. He left a message finally that he guesses I've ended the relationship and he's fine with that, he won't call me anymore.

And he hasn't.

So this is probably my last post anyway, but what I have been thinking for months now, especially these past couple of weeks, is EXACTLY what shadowkid said!!

That if I allow him to abuse me, in so many various forms, and continue to 'be here for him' ALL I am doing is allowing him to use me as a crutch and avoid healing.

I am not a csa survivor, but I had my own pretty bad traumas to struggle through, and at 33 I am still actively healing and facing these issues. And I have realized that MY own struggle is what makes me stronger and more able to feel compassion and understanding and patience for another who was abused, and in my bf's case, a person that I loved with all my being and would have done anything to make us both happy.

And yet he refuses to grow or learn or try to come outside of himself and accept my offer of love and kindness and happiness. And is that ok? Acceptable just because he was abused? Hell no. If he really believed that I was the best thing that ever happened to him, then he would SHOW me through his actions.

He was hurt when he was young, but he is not retarded. He is one of the smartest people I've ever met. He is CHOOSING to suffer and continue to let the pain of his past become the pain of the future.

And it's heartbreaking to me, but if that's the place he is in, then I have to accept it with the knowledge that I have no influence over what he decides is his destiny.

It's such a shame because he is a beautiful soul trapped inside the body of a beautiful soul. I thought the reality of having truly lost me would shock him into action.

What a fool I was.

Now I'm off to find happiness elsewhere.

I am a hopeless, idealistic romantic. Either despite or because of MY own pains. And now I realize that I NEED someone who is just as hopelessly optimistic as me! Someone who isn;t AFRAID to tell me he loves me, but who feels truly blessed to be lucky enough to have any love at all!

You know, a week ago I wouldn't have had the guts to write a post like this. But now I see, all this time I wished that my bf would reach into the depths of his soul and find some truth, and hopefully see ME in there, but for the millionth time he leaves me to wallow in the misery he caused me all by myself.

So poo on him! Of all people HE should know how crappy that feels!

Thanks for your inspiring words.

I just hope one day my love would wish to be happy himself. peace.

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67011 - 11/10/06 12:11 PM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
Hi Kat,

I'm sorry things have turned out the way they have for you with this man you so love.......But, at least you've kept some dignity.


Dignity is something I've never really had in my relationship. I have more or less BEGGED for the things I've needed for years. I walked right into it without any of those things there for me. I made a mess of things years ago becaue of my own inability to TALK about those things and work towards some kind of intimacy. I've never felt safe/protected/desired by bf. I've been SO nervous. Even though I made a mistake years ago, I have always passionately expressed my commitment to him. He is beginning to express moderated amounts of it, but it's not enough for me yet and I'm not accepting it anymore in a way which makes everything seem ok. It's not all ok for me. I need to know my partner is SURE of being with me. I need to know the passion behind that. I need to see it and feel it and I need it to come from him without promting or desperation on my part. I think I'm becomming less co-dependant in that way. He always looks sorry for himself if there's things I need, or takes it as some kind of attack. I'm now coming to the conclusion that that's his stuff to sort out. MY stuff is the fact that I CANNOT fully love him and connect with him, or feel safe enough to get too close without those things. I've been like a lap dog for years, following him round, feeling sorry for him, feeling like I've hurt him.

Having said all that, I poured my love into him/our relationship in a kind of unconditional way for years and I don't regrett that. I did love him that much that it seems I was willing to put up with what was missing, as it felt so right in so many other ways when I was by his side.

If I'd known in words with a whole explanation about all his uncertainty all those years ago, would I have stayed? I really don't know. I don't actually think I would have done to be honest. I would have set a distance between us till he could reassure me I was the ONE for him.

The fact is Kat, you very likely could be the ONE for him. I don't blame you at all for the distance you need and perhaps he will come to you. Perhaps he'll really put his mind to sorting himself out a bit, to get to the point where he can claim what he really wants. Which is what most people really want, which is to be close to someone they love. To lie in their arms and celebrate their love. Just because he hasn't called you doesn't mean he doesn't feel that for you. It's more likely to mean he feels he 'can't' have that. He's nervous he can never give you what you want. He's nervous about other things he wants and what they might mean about him. He's not closely in touch enough with his HEART. I've been in a space like that, except I think I've been lucky enough to have just enough trust in my core feelings to understand what might be right for me.

What were the messages he left for you?
Have you ended the relationship?
If he sorted himself out a bit and could give you some reassurance, would you be prepared to be with him then?
Do you really want to be with him, but are too afraid in case he doesn't really want you?
What if he does want you, but just doesn't know how to communicate in a way which would make a woman feel loved/cherished/adored etc?
What if, in time, he could learn those types of communication skills?


I'm a hopeless romantic too and so many of my dreams have been broken, but I'm fighting for them now. I'm setting boundaries. Perhaps you could also set some boundaries and maybe not totally break off all communication. He might really need to know you do actually want him. If you told him you really do want him, but need to feel he is more certain, that would be something? Perhaps that would give him some kind of goal?

It seems a shame to break off all communication and not reply at all to him......

just some thoughts,

peace
Beccy


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#67012 - 11/10/06 07:23 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Hi Beccy!

Thank you so much for your thoughts and questions!

Here are the answers:

What were the messages he left for you?

He emailed me in response to my email in which I was upset that he has told me, "I've been thinking of you a lot, I guess that means I miss you, I think." I felt he was STILL being so distant and refusing to be vulnerable. His response was lovely at parts, he told me that "...almost every pleasure i get from this trip i think to myself how much i wish you were here with me and then i feel sad and mad, mad at you and my self and then its no longer fun..."

But in the same email he says, "i think that what i have done is unforgivable and trusting me now is impossible, but after taking this monkey off my back, i have no intention to lie to you anymore..." BUT STILL MORE, "i hope that when i am back you will be there and if what i feel now is not only because i miss you, i will see you in your best happiness all the time."

I know that those are some wonderful things, but I can't help but see all the doubt still heavily saturating all those wonderful things. Before I would have not even seen those things, But now I can't IGNORE IT. I need so much for him to come outside himself and his doubt and just tell me that he loves me and needs me, to ASK me to forgive him and tell me that he wants me to trust him!

The voice mail he left me, a day after I did not respond to his email (above) he said that he 'guesses I have decided to end the relationship, which is fine with him, and he hopes when he comes back we can come up with a decent agreement and go our separate ways."

I did listen to it multiple times ;\ and I realized that THAT message was FULL of 'um's and pauses, and sadness. I know he loves me.

Have you ended the relationship?

NO.

I can not call him (his cell isn't working overseas). I can not text msg him. I can only email him and wait for however many days until he is able to get to a computer. I finally emailed him last night after 8 days of shutting him out. I have pretty much spelled out for him exactly what I feel and needed from him. He has known without a doubt for the last year, that I love him and that I want to be with him in a real solid way.

If he sorted himself out a bit and could give you some reassurance, would you be prepared to be with him then?

Yes.

If he told me he was certain of NOTHING except his love for me, and he wasn't even sure HOW we would get through it, but that he wanted too, I would love him my best for as long as possible.

Do you really want to be with him, but are too afraid in case he doesn't really want you?

EXACTLY.

I feel that I am willing to give my life to him, but yet he is incapable of even once saying that he needs me or wants me with any certainty.

What if he does want you, but just doesn't know how to communicate in a way which would make a woman feel loved/cherished/adored etc? What if, in time, he could learn those types of communication skills?

If he asks me to stay with him and work through it, i will. But I cannot agree to staying with him just because I love him, while he continues to ignore these issues, and refuses to be vulnerable or assure me of his love in anyway.

*****

I'm a hopeless romantic too and so many of my dreams have been broken, but I'm fighting for them now. I'm setting boundaries. Perhaps you could also set some boundaries and maybe not totally break off all communication. He might really need to know you do actually want him. If you told him you really do want him, but need to feel he is more certain, that would be something? Perhaps that would give him some kind of goal?

It seems a shame to break off all communication and not reply at all to him......


So, like I said, I emailed him last night finally. With him being 10 hours ahead of me, and not having easy access to a computer, I don't know how long it will take for him to see my email, or when, if, or how he will respond.

Sometimes I feel convinced that although I have no doubts that he loves me (in fact I feel more certain of his love than he does) that THAT is NOT going to be the catalyst to propel him into action and healing. I know he must find this desire in himself! And I can love him unconditionally for all eternity, but if he doesn't want to grow, and I don't insist that he does, than that is NOT good love after all.

It's up to him now...

Thank you SOO much for your concern and time.

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67013 - 11/10/06 09:12 PM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
Katherinew,

I read what you wrote and thought how right you are. If your love has been well expressed, indeed the point now would be for him to be willing to express the same back to you. It sound to me like he most probably will. He sounds like he's being defensive in order to not seem 'bothered'. I see your point about the unwillingness to be vulnerable........

wishing you all the best with him, or without him \:\)


peace
Beccy


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#67014 - 11/10/06 10:54 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
Thank you so much Beccy!

I still havr unending hope for him and for us.

It's amazing to me that I love this man enough to feel that I long for his happiness, truly, even if that is without me. And that I long for happiness for myself enough to realize that if it IS with him, it has to be mutual.

I don't know if this issue of feeling CERTAIN and also willing to express vulnerability stems from the csa or not, but if this beautiful man found the courage to break through these barriers, my goodness, the sky's the limit!

I have learned:

Doubt Kills

Hope Inspires

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67015 - 11/10/06 11:02 PM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Trish, you said, about your bf wondering what feeling love is like, "Hes cried to me, begging me to tell him what it's like." -- all I can say is, this is heartbreaking and yet it sounds so hopeful too. Sometimes I wonder if it'd be better if just some catastrophic happened to them to FORCE the wall down, force them to feel everything, would be better than them trying to take the wall down themselves, which is so hard to do.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#67016 - 11/10/06 11:34 PM Re: whats going on?
katherinew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 16
Loc: lala land
BH~

what you said, "Sometimes I wonder if it'd be better if just some catastrophic happened to them to FORCE the wall down, force them to feel everything, would be better than them trying to take the wall down themselves, which is so hard to do."

is EXACTLY what I am hoping will happen for me and bf. That somehow he will see the light on his own.

The hard part about this is allowing what will happen to happen, and accepting, 1. that I have no control, and 2. that it might not work out in my favor.

But love is a risk regardless. As long as I have a clear conscious that I have loved him good and strong, and stepped back enough to let his love come out of his head and into MY reality (I think beccy may have said in another post something about her bf never comes into her space, she always has to go into his) then maybe we have a chance.

If you ask yourself honestly if your mate is loving you well, and truly being your partner, and the answer is no, then continuing in the same way is only going to bring more of the same.

Sometimes the shock of reality can truly be an epiphany for some.

Sorry to go on and on but I have 1 more thing to say. All my life, in dealing with my OWN struggleS I realized that NO ONE ever demanding more from me. If someone saw my weaknesses or faults, they would just turn the other way. But to have someone that loves you ENOUGH to demand that you try to be the best that you can be, and ASK you to grow, to treat you as if they believe that you can, and to stick by you side all the while, that is something I have never had and long for. Maybe that is why I see now that I must offer the same to my bf. To push him, lovingly and gently, but push him nonetheless, toward the truth that it does get better!

_________________________
Kat
* *** *

"You come to love not by finding the perfect person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly." - Sam Keen

"To love a person is to learn the song that is in their heart, and to sing it to them when they have forgotten." - Anonymous

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#67017 - 11/11/06 01:10 AM Re: whats going on?
beccy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 449
Loc: england
I am feeling really nervous again about how my bf really feels about me.....

I feel like my bf's resistance to showing any vulnerabilty causes me a lot of worry. I find I am endlessly paranoid and nervous and I'm fairly sure that's not just down to my own problems.

Yet a lot of the rest of the time he tells me he loves me and is lovely to me. I feel he's covering up a lot of himself and it does make me worry about wether or not he is comfortable enough with me as a partner. Actually sometimes it's quite like if I express my own vulnerability to him (inecuritys ect), he is quite mean to me. He said this directly relates to the csa. In the recent realisation of this and other similar things, I am now trying to just concentrate on my side of things, which is I feel hurt when this happens. At the moment, I'm really feeling very much like he doesn't really want me at all. It just doesn't make sense because of how lovely he is towards me the rest of the time.

I don't know, I'm just in a permanent state of anxiety I think,
peace
Beccy


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#67018 - 11/11/06 01:59 AM Re: whats going on?
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
MAYBE WE'RE JUST NOT BEING PATIENT ENOUGH. MAYBE THIS IS JUST GOING TO TAKE T I M E . Our posts change day by day, but how can we really expect much to change in a week, or even a month? Today I am reminded of when I myself had a wall up in high school, just depressed, but it looked like I had a big chip on my shoulder, I was angry, etc. My parents could NOT get through to me. This has to be similar. And I remember their long lectures only made me put more of a wall up. If only they had perhaps been more aware of my depression, my sadness, than treating me harshly because of my anger, if only they had been more patient and tender and perhaps given me some space and understood when I needed to be off by myself... I thought of all this today.

That hard time in my life finally ended, but I think it took about 3 years? Something like that, anyway, it took a while, I never sought counseling, I just had to let it run its course. And actually sometimes today I am still angry inside about some of the stuff. I notice it mostly when I'm stretched thin, and my patience is running low and I'm tired, and I hear myself inside my head saying like, "Stupid b----" when a lady pulls out in front of me. Then I realize, wow, where did that come from? And I know it's still from way back when.

I almost think of approaching it as if the men are a depressed teenager, resistant, withdrawn, a lot of similar stuff......only they would advise parents to even call on the teen's friends to assist....as teens listen to their friends better than their parents....so should we try to enlist help of any of our men's few shallow friends? Probably not, right?? I'm only saying if we should, we would only mention that our men are depressed, can you help him come out of his shell a little....I know we should never mention the abuse to others....anyway, you'll probably say, no, they're grown men, and if we go trying to enlist others to help them they will probably only retreat more and get angry at us.

But it IS kind of like we're the parent in a way sometimes. And their behavior is so juvenile, even childish, at times.

Anyway, it helped me a little to remember when I myself had a wall up against my parents in high school - my dad had lost his business, he was depressed, my mom was stressed, she suggested I might have to go live with relatives if they couldn't afford to keep me, my grades plummeted, I worried about us losing our home, etc., etc. So I remember being depressed/angry for a VERY long time. And my solace didn't come from my parents, it came from hanging out w/ friends, who didn't ask what was wrong, they would just commisserate or just let me be quiet if I wanted to, and I felt comfortable with them.

I think right now I need to just try to be quiet maybe, and let my husband have his space, his alone time, not pressure, but react more to the fact that he is sad rather than take offense at any of his anger....just let him be, if you will, and gently let him know I'm always available to talk, and all the while though still reiterating that we need to be "real" with each other, so that the WALL is acknowledged maybe rather than the problems.

It's just hard when you wonder how depressed they ARE, like are they suicidal? Then what is the correct thing to do? If we let them retreat too much they might think we don't care or don't notice that they're in trouble. So here we go again, it's such a delicate balance.

I know we all write daily, sometimes several times a day, so the updates are very often....and I know I wouldn't be able to write only monthly, but maybe we should try to take assessments of how things are going only about once a month, rather than once a day, since progress is so slow we're not going to notice it at that rate, and we get frustrated. What do you think?

Sigh.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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