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#66928 - 06/03/05 08:57 PM extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Hi Guize, ***** CAUTION MAY CONTAIN TRIGGERS***

am a little under the influence of some pain meds. I hope u dont mind that I copied & pasted the last couple of postings in the other thread -- I inserted my comments with ****those and placed them in italics**** sorry if it is confusing.
and THANK YOU for not excluding me or allowing myself to work myself into a position of excluding myself with this very TRiggering topic.

Sammy
quote:

I keep going back to the part about WHY a teen wouldnt at least TRY to access help from SOME adult that was "safe" for info if the topic of sex was not made TABOO at home.

Maybe some of the younger members will add their answers here, as these days everyone seems to be that much more open about sex talk.

But back in the 60's when I got interested in sex, and abused, there was nobody.

The BBC wouldn't even show a drama or film where a couple kissed on the lips in those days.
And my father would turn the TV off at the very thought of anything sexual anyway.
I can remember trying to watch "Top of the Pops" in the late 60's as a 14 - 15yo and they had dancers who wore skimpy outfits, for the time, and he would turn the damn thing off! So there was never any chance of the 'father son chat' there then....

Sex education in a single sex boarding school consisted of learning about friggin frog spawn!
"Do women have spawn as well Mr Edwards ?"
That's when I got to stand in the corner for the rest of the lesson.

I sincerely hope that things are different now, but sometimes things come along that tell me "no". ***Your whole sharing smacks to ME of the ADULTS feeling embarrassment and shame, hence harming the kiddoes***

And offenders will take advantage of that ignorance, how often did survivors hear the words "I'm just teaching you about sex"

***I’m sure many far too many heard those words…. And I personally forget as I get “my own” shit mixed in here. What I got to hear was , and I hate hearing this to this day “Your Special, & Your Smile is XXX” – I don’t know HOW or WHY I was able to keep that stupid smile pasted on my face even during the worst of it all, and more embarrassing to me to this day…. Is that I can and often STILL do it no matter HOW mad, sad etc I feel****

****to this Dave I must add that I was an active “Mom” and sat on a “board” for sex ed when my girls were in school. Schools teach so much BASIC stuff now I just cannot accept (maybe this is just MY bullheaded ness) that knowledge is not easily acceptable in this day and age. Yes, there are still the ODD events , remember I shared once of the “foster child” who ended up PG by her Foster dad and that mound of bullshit that I still cant forgive the “ADULTS”… I do concede we still have a LONG way to go.


Hi Sammy

Hope you're doing okay today and everything went well with #22. In fact I hope you're getting the R&R you need and NOT reading this today.

Dave

It's not really the point of this thread, so if you want to talk about it more send me a PM... but there's a lot more to why teens have babies than makes it into the press. It's not about ignorance and greed. But we are a culture that jumps at any excuse to look the other way when the evidence shows that we're not protecting our kids-- and big bellies on middle schoolers is some damning evidence-- so why not blame the victims and their families?

Kids who have babies are hurt kids first and foremost-- I mean if we can accept that other types of acting out are ways of saying "Hey look, can't you see that I'm in trouble here?"-- what louder way is there to say it than to have your name on someone else's birth certificate. The connection between sexual abuse and involvement in a teen pregnancy is high-- higher for boys than it is for girls.
quote:


I keep going back to the part about WHY a teen wouldnt at least TRY to access help from SOME adiult that was "safe" for info if the topic of sex was not made TABOO a;t home.

Why-- because they don't believe anyone can help them. Because they don't have a lot of hope for their future whether they becpme parents or not. Because they already feel "different" from their peers and think of their childhood as something they'd rather be done with. Because they are angry and don't trust adults, period. Because (no offense to our teens here) most kids don't consider long-term consequences of their behavior in general and they aren't magically more responsible about sex than they are about the rest of their lives. (I think a lot of the stereotype of looking for a handout comes from this-- it's not that those girls don't give thought to how they'll support their kids because they expect it will come from the government-- it's just that they don't think about it much at all because everything is fine for the moment, and to adults that translates as "in it for the money".)

THAT is what "no options" means. It doesn't mean that they don't know how to find Planned Parenthood in the phone book.

****SAR, then WHY when I was in H.S. did “I” know to go to Planned parenthood? Why was it ME who took my friends when they came to me with questions? WHAT made me different? I was being SA daily, couldn’t talk about it (tho did try in some cases), yet could help (?) others? Was it perhaps a way to feel some sense of power and control when inside I felt none?? ****


SAR
What I've been getting at, in my roundabout way, is that the culture ( however society has arrived at that ) creates, through legislation rightly created to protect young people of both sexes a danger for people who engage in sex with these young people.

I'll say right up front that it is WRONG for people to have sex with young people, especially when the age gap is significant enough to also include a situation where it becomes coercive and power is also abused.

But if the young person is sexually active from their own choice, and that's becoming more common, then the older person is at serious risk of being branded a sex offender.
That's right and proper, I agree entirely. The older person has a responsibility to abide by both laws and moral standards. If we don't enforce the laws then anarchy rules.

****Dave, one of my daughs male schoolmates IS branded as a S.O. to my understanding SIMPLY because he impregnated the SAME young girl who had been SA by the FOSTER father. He is NOW 22 yo and because the 2 of them went onto have 2 more babies (she was forced to give up her 1st baby) he NOW has “2 offenses” forcing him to legally list for a lifetime. These 2 young ppl were both 16 & 17 at the time. The ‘family” that they made together will forever be effected/ affected because of some crazed area & laws. I think “someone” should be able to UNDO this unfair situation*****

My point is that society is all too ready to pass judgement and brand ALL offenders as wrong and evil. But there's a big grey area that makes no allowances for offences that fall between what I call opportunistic and planned, and I personally don't feel at ease judging every 'offender' in the same manner throughout this range of offences.

Take the case of the female teacher and her student, ( Leternau ? ) they've recently married.
She was rightly sentenced for her offence, but they have consistently proclaimed their love for each other. The cynic in me sees the fact that they've sold their story to a tabloid and reacts badly towards that fact. But should we castigate her ( them ? ) in the same way as we pour hate on a serial offender of very young children?

I think that we should try and understand the crime, make an effort to dig a bit deeper and see how a particular offender arrived at the place they did.
Why ? because we can then begin to understand those individuals that offended against us, that way we can see with a degree of clarity our role in what happened to us. And I think that in 99% of cases we'll see that we weren't to blame.

****I have to say that in my opinion this is IMPERATIVE that we begin to understand and learn about the WHYS not just the HOWS, as this is KEY to PREVENTION. BUT, if an Offender is willing to “share” their stories, then my own distrust falls in as – IS the offender ‘bragging”, is the offender Lying? Is it JUST to get attention or special breaks if they are incarcerated at the time of questioning. Then I wonder is it so that they have time out of the cell? Or Extra food, etc?***
Even if we suffered from a one-off opportunistic episode of sex abuse the offender had a responsibility to NOT offend, and there are no excuses in reality. If the offender is drunk then they should have drunk less. But society can't account for a sexually active, and possibly drunk young person.

That's the big grey area for me, and one that I can find some compassion for the older, supposedly more responsible person involved.


guize i cant seem to get my last comment to add in this posting so am going to add a ps.
Thanks, Sammy


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#66929 - 06/03/05 09:06 PM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Here is my PS to the above posting,

That's the big grey area for me, and one that I can find some compassion for the older, supposedly more responsible person involved.

Dave

***I agree that there is so much grey area in this I wonder if we will ever find some answers. It makes my heart heavy.

I know that my very own Hubby is an S.O. – HE and I will forever need to remain vigilant that he takes care of himself so he never offends again.
Even IF the female he was with HAD been SA’d previously we all know that the average is that if once SA’d more than likely it will happen AGAIN. That if SA’d it is NOT uncommon to become “sexually precocious”, it is part of the grooming and training.

Hubby ultimately IS responsible for having sexual contact with this female. DUE to the use of the alcohol.
Had the situation been that he was completely sober & the female then SA’d him it would be a classic fight of “HOW can a MALE be SA’d , especially if he is a “grown man” on the outside.

What made ME different as I was growing up to be able to remain calm & clinical to help my girlfriends? What made me different to be able to (I think with + feedback from my own daughs) be a parent who could remain calm & clinical about giving Sex info to my daughs? Was it simply that childhood promise to myself “I will NEVER do this to my own children.”

I’m babbling – I value your opinions and feedback so much. And who ever posted that I perhaps was looking for a way to make sense or come to terms with my own Hubbys S.O. status. I wholly agree, & also think perhaps I am seeking some understanding further of my own past & abusers.
May Peace Fill Us All,
Sammy


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#66930 - 06/04/05 12:08 AM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sammy
How many shades of 'grey' are there?

Quote:
I have to say that in my opinion this is IMPERATIVE that we begin to understand and learn about the WHYS not just the HOWS, as this is KEY to PREVENTION. BUT, if an Offender is willing to “share” their stories, then my own distrust falls in as – IS the offender ‘bragging”, is the offender Lying? Is it JUST to get attention or special breaks if they are incarcerated at the time of questioning. Then I wonder is it so that they have time out of the cell? Or Extra food, etc?
How does anyone differentiate between a serial abuser going through "the list of excuses" and the opportunist who's pouring their heart out with genuine remorse and the will to change their behaviours?
How many perp's stand up in court and play the "I was abused" card?

That sounds harsh on you and your hubby I know, but I get the impression that your 'bullshit detector' would see through that, as indeed most people in a close, loving, relationship with someone in that situation would. Judges don't have the benefit of that much personal knowledge.

That's the way the law works, and in a democracy we have to accept that or fight for change within the system.
But that doesn't stop us as individuals from finding our own levels of understanding and compassion.
And that's an intellectual process that we ultimately have control of, as we do our healing.

Our healing requires us to use our intellectual ability to its limits, and that applies to all abilities - whatever we've got, healing will stretch it.
That ongoing process of intellectual gymnastics wont only apply to our healing, the focus is on the healing, but all our thinking and reasoning is bound to be affected.

Don't we owe it to ourselves to make an effort and try to understand those things that have both affected our lives and in the normal course of events repel us?
I'm not talking about forgiveness necessarily, just 'understanding the best we can'?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66931 - 06/04/05 02:41 AM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
puppy Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 129
Loc: earth
ok, i read your post. you wanted opinions of younger people, so i am one and heres what i think.

on the topic of understanding each individual sex offender before making a judgement...well what are laws for? fun? if you dont want to be classified as a sex offender, dont have sex with children. thats pretty simple. i dont think the circumstances matter. its a matter of self control. the school teacher who had sex with her 13 year old student is a sick b**ch and yes, we should judge her harshly. regardless of where they stand now, regardless of her time in prison, she repeatedly had sex with a child while she was in a position of authority. im not into sympathy in cases like that. she made the choice and she has to live with the consequences.

and as for gray areas, i dont believe there are any. if the law states that you cant have sexual contact with someone under X age, then that is pretty black and white as far as i see it.

but thats just me.

_________________________
pUpPy

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#66932 - 06/04/05 09:31 PM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Charlie Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 148
deleted


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#66934 - 06/05/05 01:31 AM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Before this turns into a flame war, can everyone please realize that this is an extension of another long thread-- no you don't have to read the thread but please understand that you may not know all the context coming into this discussion.

Wifey's husband is a survivor of sexual abuse, and he isn't a "guy who gets off on little kids"-- he had sex with a 20 year old while they were both drunk. And the question directed specifically to younger members was from Lloydy, he wanted to know if kids feel that getting help or getting a grasp on abuse is influenced by the fact that sex is more present in media and schools than it used to be.

This next part is a reminder to people of all ages.

IF SOMETHING TRIGGERS YOU PLEASE TAKE A STEP BACK BEFORE RESPONDING. IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO VENT ABOUT IT DO SO IN PRIVATE TO A MODERATOR. IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO RESPOND PLEASE WRITE YOUR RESPONSE AND THEN WAIT 24 HOURS BEFORE POSTING IT. READ AND REREAD BEFORE YOU HIT SEND. CONTROVERSY ON THE FORUMS DISTRACTS US FROM THE HEALING WE ARE HERE TO DO.

Thanks guys
SAR


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#66936 - 06/05/05 02:26 PM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Charlie Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 148



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#66937 - 06/05/05 11:40 PM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I'm glad you guys read this and answered.

To people of my generation we see sexually explicit things on TV, read it in magazines and papers, and assume that there's a far greater level of knowledge and understanding out there that young people have access to, and therefore making it easier to talk about.
Sadly that doesn't seem to be the truth.

Rather than move this topic into another area, let's carry on in the Unmoderated, where we can all join in.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66938 - 06/06/05 03:18 AM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
Kev and CHarlie,

Your are 2 good to be hard on yourself, u both are caring guys \:\) \:\) . We all make mistakes and we kick ourselves to much, we are not perfect, we say stuff that we didn't mean, or it came out wrong, or say stuff without thinking it's impact on others etc..

Where they are 2 people together we have have these problems and where there are a bunch of people watch out. \:\) \:\) They are part of life and we deal with the best way we can.

U handled it like I am glad u did. U stepped up to the plate right of way and said u were sorry. It take a real stong guy -inside to admit it and u should be proud, I am.

U learned something here that I had a hard time learning when i was younger, I got smacked around to learn it, but U learned in the safety net of guys that really care and watch out 4 u. Perfect learning environment.

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#66939 - 06/06/05 04:10 AM Re: extension of my Hubby is an S.O.
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Guize,
I started a post earlier but got called out...
Just wanted to let you know I did not take your postings internally. You have a right to your opinions and a right to express them.
This is a tough subject even for the "professionals" I bet.
Best of Wishes to you,
Sammy


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