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#66789 - 05/25/05 11:00 PM My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Hi Guize,
First line of importance -- this could be VERY triggering. I also want you to know that I am open to questions and comments that you may have. Above all I am NOT seeking sympathy. *caution probably long*

I have been spending several days attempting to write about this, I get so far and then get "stuck", either comes out with too much unneccessay detail or not enough. So here goes a try.

For those who have been a part of this site for awhile you probably remember the basics but Dave said something in a reply post that got me to thinking.

Quote:
Your hubby has a conviction for a sexual offence, that's a difficult thing to accept and live with, for EVERYONE who's closely involved, the girl included.
But at the risk of offending some people here I strongly believe that there are different levels of offending, and there's a world of difference between a one off, opportunistic offender and a serial offender. I can find a level of understanding, and forgiveness to the opportunistic offender that I can't possibly even begin to imagine for a serial offender, or even for a single offence that is the result of some degree of planning.
Those words above have triggered a tremendous amount of desire to "release" my understanding of what and how my husband offended. I have some simplistic understanding, and thru reading what these brave men share even deeper understanding. I guess maybe I am seeking not only a way to release into the safty of others who can comprehend the intricacies of SA, but perhaps someone to tell me "Sammy, he is truly MORE than what those unknowing wish to lable him".

It has not helped that recently it has been his birthday and this time of year our State sends out a form for him to fill out and mail in stating his current address. Our local County police then do a follow up to verify that he is indeed residing where he states he is. I of course had the joy of answering the door to this Officer who was very polite and kind in talking with me. I was very very frightened that I may say something that could cause suspicion or place my Hubby in danger of the judicial system. The Officer did kindly talk with me about the proposed changes in the law about how far a convicted sex offender may live next to a school or licensed day care. Politics, what a mess!
Before this officer met he made the statement "I spoke with you last year didn't I?" I assured him no, but that I just had one of those "familiar faces". I could not bring myself to tell this officer that I had worked very closely with our Local P.D. and also with him to attempt to develope programs to protect our elderly, he had previously been assigned as a Special Investigator for Crimes Against the Elderly. Truthfully I was just too embarrassed to admit how we had known each other before.
I also had found myself in our conversation about the law changes making statements describing sex offenders as "people with illness's deserving help to not re offend". I also had shared with him in short sentences the harrassment Hubby has recieved at his workplace due to having his picture placed on the S.O. Website without first notifying us.
I asked this Officer if this will be my husbands "birthday present" for the next 6 -7 yrs? As last yr he had to mail in his notification and had a visit from the officer around his birthday also. The officer shared some rather interesting news with me. Initially when a law was passed that convicted sex offenders must register our local state Attny told the officer to not even "try" to enforce this law. Why? Because of the question of legal freedom of information acts & civil rights to live where one wants to live. I myself was aghast at finding this out. Only recently in the past few short years have "some" attempts been made to validate where the Registered S.O's are.

One officer is assigned to verify that over 300 Registered S.O.'s are in ONE county alone. Last year he went in order of last names, this yr he has chosen to go by neighborhoods. ONE officer, for just the one's who REGISTER!!! I question now, what of the S.O's who DON'T register?
The news he shared is that there is in our state one Officer assigned per County to handle the S.O's they will be having a Summit mtg with in a few months to "brainstorm" ideas on how to manage and maintain the info on S.O's and to also PROTECT them from vigilante acts.

Please understand I am in no way making a statement that sex offenders should have a slap on the wrist and let go to rape, pillage and plunder. I am just sharing so that you may have just a little bit of knowledge as we learn ourselves along the way.

As Dave said, there are different levels of sexual offense. I personally believe that while legally they can be designated as minor, major, and or mis-demeanor (my hubby's is a mis-demeanor). The damage done to not only the "Victim", but to the Offender and family, friends and of course our community is ever lasting. I am still at a loss as to how if ever these acts could be healed.

A quick rundown of how my hubby became a S.O. -- He was deeply depressed from his own S.A., my sudden and severe health change, His daughters "leaving the nest" and his sex addiction spinning out of control i.e. porn, prostitutes & masturbation.
His behavior became that of a 20 something, I begged him and our girls to get psych help. I finally had enough and took the advice of my Dr. and left for a long vacation leaving them to "live like hippies". Hubby was consuming alcohol much more than we had ever had before. More and more frequently he was spending time with guys after work that he claimed he disliked. Later I would find out he was also smoking pot something I absolutely abhored in behavior.
He had gone to a work buddies "Bonfire" drank entirely too much, came home to find our 20 yr old having her own drunk fest in which not only did they encourage him to join, but pooled their monies and drove him to buy more liquer for them. (They had cleaned out my entire booze collection that had been in my cupboards for more than 3 yrs.) They all continued to drink.
One young lady who was not a frequent visitor in my group of "acquired kids" was at this drunk fest. She got sick and passed out first, our daughter and her friends cleaned her up and placed her in my daughs. spare bed in her room. Others went onto to continue drinking.
Hubby says the last thing he remembers is finishing a bottle of jack daniels by himself and going to bed at about 8 AM. He remembers waking up with this girl on him. He remembers shoving her off of him and she appeared to be "disgusted" with him for doing so. Apparently she immediately went into our acquired sons bed and crawled in with him. Our daugh. had to be to work and so called to her to get ready to go home. Our daugh would tell me later & in the police report she had woken to go to shower for work and had seen this girl laying on my side of the bed with Dad on his side Cpap on.
A few days later through the coconut line daugh found out that this girl had pressed Rape charges against hubby.
I returned from my vacation some couple weeks later and it took even a couple more weeks for anyone to even tell me the events. I insisted on copies of statements from the PD and each one stated that "No one knew HOW this girl got in bed with my hubby."
I was angry with EVERYONE, especially the PD as I had been working with them for several years and felt that none of them had the balls to tell me face to face what had gone on under my own roof while I was gone.
The girls statement was obviously mostly written by her mother, the handwriting was easy to see. During my hubbys sentencing the girl was not in the court room but had made a "victim impact statement". Hubby admitted to what happened, his attny did not allow for him to speak for himself. Hubby immediately had placed himself in therapy and a sex addicts group. I was amazed to watch the prosecuting attny LIE to the judge when the judge asked was the girl acceptable to the "Plea" the attnys had made just moments before in the hallway. He stated she was well aware and acceptable.
Our coconut line had told us that she had been sent to a "Work Program" by her mother in another state and she had not been in this area for several weeks.

The times that hubby I and could talk without heated emotions we both prayed and hoped that this young woman got the help she so deeply deserved. We had a history with her in the fact that her mother had physically assaulted her & the young girl had called me begging to come live with us. I told her no, that she needed to call the PD and soc. svcs. What I did not know was that her mother was and is a Licensed Soc.Wrkr. The girl had been sent the following summer to live with an aunt and uncle. I recieved a call from her asking if my daugh. could come get her in CO. as her Uncle had been molesting her. Apparently she had contacted the PD and made a statement there. I told her my daugh could if her mother were to call me & tell me she was allowed to come home & live with her. The mother did so, but now I wonder was it mom? or was I duped???
Either way, Hubby said it mattered not HOW this girl ended up having sexual contact with him, he was the adult in the house. It matters not that these were 20 yr old young folks, he illegally provided liquer for other than his daugh. (this state you can provide liqueur for your 14+ yr old children). We knew this girl had at some point in her life been sexually assaulted by SOMEONE at sometime.

The law that my hubby was charged under is a law that is written as: "If sexually contact takes place between 2 people with a 4 year age difference and one is "unable" to give consent that constitutes as a sexual assault". I presume initially the law was written more to protect folks who perhaps have a mental handicap or illness. (i worked in mental health for about 10 yrs and saw how these folks are so taken advantage of by what would seem to be normal healthy adults eerrgghh!!) But, my question to my hubby was this and not being sarcastic but in all honesty.
Each time he and I were out and he was perhaps inebriated and we had sexual contact should I not have been charged under this law? I am after all 5 yrs older than him?
In all of our years of marriage I know that my hubby has NEVER ONCE initiated sexual contact with me. Hubby says that yes it is possible he was so blacked out drunk that he could have inititated sexual contact with this girl. BUT NO ONE, not even the girl in her PD statement could say HOW she got in his room or WHO started the contact.
Is it possible that because of what is very probable an abuse history for her that she made contact with him first? Is it possible that SHE could have actually "sexually assaulted him?". Hubby says no, ultimately as the "adult" he was responsible no matter WHO started what.
I know I have repeatedly heard my hubby say he prays that this young woman gets the help she so deserves. That her life becomes full and happy. We shall never know the answer to that, and my heart breaks that he will never have a chance to tell her how sorry he is for the events that took place that awful night. I myself think tho' that as long as he continues to work his program for sobriety and share to men who so quickly sexualize women into objects he will in some ways be making amends to her. Perhaps that karma will come around and help to heal her damages.

Dave, I have to ask you and anyone else who wants to share can you please explain just a bit further what you mean when you said

"opportunistic offender and a serial offender. I can find a level of understanding, and forgiveness to the opportunistic offender that I can't possibly even begin to imagine for a serial offender, or even for a single offence that is the result of some degree of planning."

1) what do you mean by an "opportunistic offender"?
2) What do you mean by "single offense" that is the result of some degree of planning?


My understanding is that anyone who is going to sexually offend has to build themselves up mentally and emotionally to take the next step to find the "opportunity" to then take action.
So in that line of thinking for me I just am confused that there could be a "single offense" with planning? Isn't there always some form of "practice runs" before the actual offense takes place?
Or Maybe Ken Singer might be able to help me out with these differences also?
Please! please! understand that in no way do I or my hubby seek some form of "excuse for behaviors". But just a better understanding of what drove him "over the line" this time? Of course the alcohol use played a HUGE part in this and it is a topic of discussion that still has contention with it between us. I have faith tho that this will come to an agreement between us.

In facing the next 6 - 7 years of hubby having to register as a S.O. it is very difficult to know that he may never be able to accept a better paying job in a different state because of the Registery laws in constant change from state to state. A great fear fills us both that if he should have an opportunity to take a more fulfilling position the price may be that he would have to start is registry completely over. Although the Officer that I spoke with did say that ONLY multiple (2 or more convictions) force an S.O. to lifetime list, it still carries a great sense of fear. We can Never sell the house we now live in, due to the protection of what is called "grandfathering" in the laws.

I also want to share with you, that not ONCE has my hubby ever complained about his "punishment" for his actions. He fulfills his requirements without so much as a squeek, I see his face though when I got the mail & saw that damn registry, knowing he is so much more than an address and a picture that some cruel unknowledgeable folks can use to hurt him.

I see and know him first during these times, as my partner the MAN who held me & our daughters together during my healing time of my own SA, A BIG MAN who has held our family together as we face my health problems. A man who has not given up on himself and pushes himself to learn and continue to be loving and consistent. A Man who survived childhood sexual abuse.... and here I am ANGRY at the Son of A Bitch who started and created so much pain in such an innocent persons life. I blame that Son of A Bitch for the very actions that happened that awful night.

May Peace Find us All,
Sammy


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#66790 - 05/25/05 11:19 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Guize,
Ok, another what may seem bizarre question. Yet these questions have been long often held conversations in our house for a long time.

At what point does one become an adult and responsible for their actions?
18? a person can sign a contract and be legally held reliable for it. But is not "legal" to consume alcohol. Can legally sign a contract to get their asses shot off in the military, but not legal to consume alcohol even on the military bases.
If 21 is the legal age for consumtion of alcohol are they then adults?
If parents can legally allow and give alcohol to 14 yr old children in their homes, why are parents still held legally responsible for their kiddoes actions until age 18?

What are your thoughts?

Since all of the people involved in our personal "fright night" , were over the age of 18 how much responsibility do they own?
And Men, how many times if any have you been under the influence and felt overly pressured to have sexual contact with a woman? Did you feel violated by them? Do you think you too should have the right to claim "date rape" also?

Peace, Sammy


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#66791 - 05/25/05 11:20 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Guize,
Ok, another what may seem bizarre question. Yet these questions have been long often held conversations in our house for a long time.

At what point does one become an adult and responsible for their actions?
18? a person can sign a contract and be legally held reliable for it. But is not "legal" to consume alcohol. Can legally sign a contract to get their asses shot off in the military, but not legal to consume alcohol even on the military bases.
If 21 is the legal age for consumtion of alcohol are they then adults?
If parents can legally allow and give alcohol to 14 yr old children in their homes, why are parents still held legally responsible for their kiddoes actions until age 18?

What are your thoughts?

Since all of the people involved in our personal "fright night" , were over the age of 18 how much responsibility do they own?
And Men, how many times if any have you been under the influence and felt overly pressured to have sexual contact with a woman? Did you feel violated by them? Do you think you too should have the right to claim "date rape" also?


Peace, Sammy


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#66792 - 05/26/05 09:45 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 797
Loc: North Texas
Hi Sammy, for a long time I meant to talk to you. But your talk of suicide attempts and the psych ward put me off. I felt that I was unqualified to talk to you, also afraid I mite say the wrong thing.

About your husband, I don't think he did anything bad enough to keep him off this site. That is if you want him to come here.

In case you did not know RangerJ19 is a S.O., you may want to read his messages. I think he is allowed on here because he is being honest with us and is sorry for what he did.

Question did the D.A. have any HARD evidence that sex took place? The reason I ask is from the way you describes this it sounds like due to no evidence that proved that sex had not happened, and a poorly written law. The D.A. had a opportunity to railroad your husband. From what little I understand about that law, it is designed to prevent sex predators who get another person intoxicated and has sex with them with out their consent.

It is likely that a person that has had so much to drink that he has a blackout would not be able to preform. The problem is with both your husband and the girl having blackouts. The DA was able to put your husband into a no win position.
He had your husband, dead to rights for giving alcohol and allowing underage drinking in his house. It is assumed by society that if a man is found in bed with a girl he must have had sex with her, or he is gay! A MAN would not have been able to control himself if he is in the same bed. The DA also had this poorly written law to use! I think your husband did the right thing to take the plea, if it had gone to a jury trial he would have been convicted.

Quote:
Please! please! understand that in no way do I or my hubby seek some form of "excuse for behaviors". But just a better understanding of what drove him "over the line" this time? Of course the alcohol use played a HUGE part in this and it is a topic of discussion that still has contention with it between us.
I don't think "HE" went over the line, the girl maybe did.

Quote:
He remembers waking up with this girl on him. He remembers shoving her off of him and she appeared to be "disgusted" with him for doing so. Apparently she immediately went into our acquired sons bed and crawled in with him.
I think this is what happened. The girl had probably crawled into bed with him during the night, and fell asleep, your daughter did see them asleep there, and discreetly called out on the way to the shower. The girl work up, and for whatever reason climbed on top of him. When he rejected her, she went into your other acquired sons bed and crawled in with him.acquired sons bed and crawled in with him.

When is a person a adult? They are a adult at the age this government says they are old enough to hold a gun and defend this country. They should have all rights, and be held responsible for anything they do.
Here is my personal example. I got out of high school at 18 and joined the navy. When I got to submarine school, we had a beer machine in the barracks, with the understanding that if we misbehaved, we would be dropped from the school and sent to the surface navy with out a school to spend the rest of our time in the navy chipping paint. During the time I was there no one was dropped due to alcohol related problems. I think the reason the drinking age was moved back to 21 was not so much due to 18 year old not being able to act responsibly, but due to 17 and 16 year olds thinking that they were close enough to the drinking age, to start drinking, and they were acting irresponsibly.

I got to get ready to go out and eat. I'll tackle that last question when I get back.

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#66793 - 05/26/05 11:39 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
***CAUTION CONTAINS GRAPHIC TRIGGERS***

LostCowboy,
Let me say thank you for having the courage to respond to what is obviously a very triggering subject.
I apologize if I frightened anyone including you by my free talk of suicide and my psych ward visits. Because I am a survivor also, and pretty much there isnt anyone I know that isnt a survivor of SA it seems to be the "norm" for me rather than the abnorm. I find out all too painfully that my brashness frightens others away from me when I so desperately need others.

*Did the D.A. have hard evidence that sex took place?* - The girl did go to the hospital and have a rape kit done. It did show that there had been some type of vaginal contact. A few weeks later when I went for an STD check up and HIV testing I tested positive for what this girl had also tested positive for during her rape kit. A type of STD that is not always spread thru sexual contact, but can be. In other words she had this "infection" even before she had contact with my husband. And my ever so loving husband (said with sarcasm) shared that with me when he could not tell me what had happened BEFORE we had sexual contact after my vacation.
The attny explained that because the "rape kit" showed some contact had taken place basically it was a he said she said deal and it was ten grand up front to fight the charges. AND because he was a grown adult male, inebriated his word meant nothing no matter any the situation. And yes we were assured that if it had gone to a jury trial he would have been convicted just based on the fact that he is a male. Passive SA survivor or not.
The underage drinking was never even brought into question. Which surprised me as it seems as if that would have been yet more garrunteed monies for the State coffers.

As far as being able to achieve an erection during a black out. I can not say, only thru my own SA with my father. My father no matter how drunk blacked out etc was many many times able to achieve erection. The question of being able to ejaculate however was a very limited ability.

Cowboy, Hubby DID go over the line. He was the ONLY GROWN adult in the house at the time. Which made him basically the Master Chief of the Boat. He was responsible for ALL of those young peoples safty and behaviors. Yes Sh*t may roll down hill, our daughter does struggle with her role in this "fright night", as I am sure so many of the other young people do also. But Hubby will tell you HE was and IS responsible drunk or not for what happened in the house after he returned.

We must be close in age as after reading your opinion on "when is an adult an adult" re: the alcohol I do have to agree with that.
Go Navy!
Peace, Sammy


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#66794 - 05/27/05 12:38 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sammy
Once again you're asking the awkward and difficult questions, but whoever said life was easy and fair was lying. Life can't possibly all neat and ordered, none of us fit nicely into the stereotypes, and it becomes even messier when the law becomes involved with moral issues.

Quote:
Dave, I have to ask you and anyone else who wants to share can you please explain just a bit further what you mean when you said

"opportunistic offender and a serial offender. I can find a level of understanding, and forgiveness to the opportunistic offender that I can't possibly even begin to imagine for a serial offender, or even for a single offence that is the result of some degree of planning."

1) what do you mean by an "opportunistic offender"?
2) What do you mean by "single offense" that is the result of some degree of planning?
"Opportunistic offender" I would class them as someone who finds themselves in a situation where they act out character due to the circumstances they find themselves in.
Sex addicts are a classic example of being at risk in any opportunistic situation.
My own experience tells me that when I was wound up and seeking sex with other men I never even found out their names, let alone how old they were. So it was more luck that judgement that I didn't technically offend by acting out with someone under 16yo.
I know, and many other men here have said the same thing, that when we're in the grip of this urge to act out NOTHING is going to stop us - not until WE make the decision to stop the behaviour in it's entirety, which is why we end up here and in therapists chairs around the globe.

That type of offending doesn't have planning, other than the uncontrolable urge for sex, to actually break the law. The acting-out of sexual behaviour is the most important thing.
Yes, I know 100% that this type of behaviour does account for some one off child abuse cases, but I feel that the offender in those cases is predisposed to that kind of fantasy and desire.

That drags up the laws and moral standards of the countries and communities we live in, even the states in the case of the USA.
My argument does fall down a bit here because there are very few ways to differentiate between a 13yo virgin and a sexually precocious 19yo when the law says 21 is the age of consent.

How many guys, say 17yo, have sex with 13yo girls?
It's wrong, both in most countries laws and most societies morals.
But we have to have laws otherwise sexual anarchy would prevail, and the line has to be drawn 'somewhere'.

If we didn't have that 'line' then the serial offenders would do as they please. You only have to read the shit on the NAMBLA web site to see that, and look at the way child porn is obviously becoming more available, or are we just witnessing better law enforcement that catches more users?
Whatever, serial offenders have an agenda - to groom children for sex. That's conscious decision in the face of laws and moral conventions, and with no regard for the effects of their behaviour on the victims. The term 'psychopath' is no longer in favour, but I like the de>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66795 - 05/27/05 02:56 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Dave & Guize,
Thank you for being so Brave to be able to address this posting and my oh so many questions. Your support is invaluable to not only myself but my hubby also.

After reading the posting and the responses aloud to Hubby last night we both cried. Not great sobs, but tears of relief. We've been discussing this topic off & on. A day or 2 before Hubby came & put his arms around my shoulders and asked me what was wrong. I really partially could not put my finger on the "exact" what's wrong button, so I told him as close as I could I just wasn't "feeling like myself".
SAR & Other Partners, you're going to rejoice in this next part as I hope many of you do - "with us". Hubby responded with " I can tell something has been bothering you for a few days, I want to be able to help you." Just hearing those words helped me heal inside so much of the pain & anger that had grown over the years not just between he & I, but it seemed as if it was being spoken for those in my past who I had needed to hear it from too. (i hope that made sense)

Dave, in your first sentence you mentioned the word "lying". I remember when Hubby 1st entered his Sex Addicts group. Apparently one or part of the "creed" taken or perhaps it is a step is about "lying". That because so much of the acting out of Addiction is surrounded by lying & often cannot take place without lying, Hubby had to admit to doing this. What baffled me then, but no longer does after the brave men on this site share, it became a 2n natural behavior for him. He even often shares that many times he could not tell his own truth from his lies. While some of his lies that come to light now may be painful, at least he can tell me "that was a lie Sammy" & perhaps I am hardened? I'd like to think I am more empathetic & understanding instead it passes in conversation as if it is no big deal. He is honest now & that has made the pain worth it and there fore not worth pointing fingers or blaming = a stupid fight for nothing that can be changed in the past.

When you said
Quote:
Sex addicts are a classic example of being at risk in any opportunistic situation.
That summed everything up for me and even Hubby sat on the couch (i read everything to him as he struggles with reading) said very loudly "He is right, as an Addict ANY situation can be taken as an opportunity as the mind does not shut off easily, slowly I have learned and am learning to retrain myself to change thought pattern when I find myself sexualizing a situation. But, I am getting better at it.
I know he is telling truth to me in that as he actually "answers my questions even if he is involved in watching the tube or doing a chore", I no longer wonder as much or ask as much "Did you hear me?"
Hubby wholly agreed much time was spent in "trying to NOT act out, until he could no longer handle the tension again", then when he did act out he spent the next amount of time consumed with thoughts of what a "sick f*ck" he must be. Even to go so far as to think thoughts that he should never have been born, that he was the lowest life form on earth, & that someone should kill him. Those awful thoughts did not surprise me as I have read those very thoughts from some many many brave men and boys on this website. I did not like them, but at least I understood that his thoughts were not thoughts that I should "rush him" to the nearest Psych Ward. Hubby especially agreed when you said, nothing could stop the behavior until "HE" made the decision to stop it. I know it has not been easy, but I do celebrate with him that he has been "Sober" for over a year now.

Quote:
That type of offending doesn't have planning, other than the uncontrolable urge for sex, to actually break the law. The acting-out of sexual behaviour is the most important thing.
Yes, I know 100% that this type of behaviour does account for some one off child abuse cases, but I feel that the offender in those cases is predisposed to that kind of fantasy and desire.
Through Hubby sharing what he has learned in his Group Therapy with me (anonymity is consistently kept) most of the men in this group were court ordered to attend only after being caught "Publicly" offending, whether masturbating publicly in a book store or the Physician caught in the computer "sting" to catch the Pedophiles. Hubby did go on to say that he felt the "True Pedophiles" were not going to be so easily caught in public because they are more likely to get the "buzz" or "High" from the "Grooming Process".
This is where I recognized from my own experiences as a Survivor my abuse took place through long term grooming process, making me an easier target for my "dad's" next "friend" as I had been "trained" that was what I was supposed to do. Many of you here can identify with that behavior. Moreover, this is what prompted us to believe that the "girl/ young woman who was Hubby's "victim" was previously assaulted by someone due to her "precocious" behavior and the coconut line info of her behavior & at home family problems of her own " extreme teen acting out".

As far as being more "predisposed" to that kind of fantasy & behavior, Hubby & I have had more than one heated argument over a Dr. in his group who had gotten caught in an "internet sting". Hubby seemed to almost want to protect this man's behavior, my argument is that had a "real 13 yr old" answered the internet mtg that man would have definetly acted out his "fantasy". Perhaps it would have been a one time behavior, but I personally think it would have only fueled his acting out into making him into a full blown Pedophile.

You went on to share an example of a 17 yo having sex with a 13 yo. I do have to share at this point my best GF found out by going thru her son's back pack that he was having sex @ about 13 yo with a girl who was 16 yo. Not only did my GF contact this girls mother to let her know her daugh. was being sexually active (not accusatory, but to alert her), the mothers response was one of anger and a who gives a sh*t kids do what kids do. My GF absolutely did NOT want her son to be a "father" before he was prepared. She (my GF) contacted an attny in her State to find out if her son was in any danger should this angry mother decide to try to press any charges against her son (even tho they had written evidence the girl was the one "pushing her son to have sex". Needless to say we ALL were aghast to find out that no matter her sons age he could have been held legally responsible for "rape" of this girl. Why? How? Simply because he was a "Male". That info did nothing to ease our pain as parents and of course instilled even more fear into us, as it seems young teen boys seem to be "targets" for the blame of trouble far too often.

Which brings me to yet another assinine "law" on our books here. In this State & County it is legal for a 14 yr old girl to "give consent" for sex. Provided the male is not over the age of 18 , yet the "State" may take any information they recieve (say from a pissed parent) and press charges against the young man even IF the girl refuses to make a statement or file a complaint. The "State" does not even have to have the evidence of a "rape kit" , just statements from others. What I and probably many others (lord knows i only have daughs so this has been a HUGE learning experience for me) wonder 1) why would the State waste money on a "hearsay" trial, 2) How could they even bring a trial into place just upon "hearsay"?
I understand the implications if it was a case of a young person who was accosted unwillingly. BUT? For 2 teens with "normal" sex drives & experimentation? That to me stinks of "Big Brother being too much in my own house.

I look back through my own healing process from SA and think these thoughts. For a long time my "peers" assumed I was a "slut" because I easily flirted, many young men took me on dates "expecting" to get "sex". Only a very few that I felt I had an "emotional connection with" did I choose to have sex with. Of those young men, one shared many yrs later with me that "You were always more sexual than I was". I could never tell him "Why". It took a great many years for me and of a course yrs of therapy to "forgive myself" for being "precocious" (i really dislike that word for some reason it seems to place sexual responsibility upon a child? just my opinion tho). Even though I knew I had the "power" to bring those young boys to their knees in weakness sexually I never did so. In my own mind it would have verified I was what the "adult males" already made me feel I was. Hell Dave one of my long time abusers I even told myself we were "having an affair", to try to make some sense of the terrible shit I & my Sister suffered & survived. (sh*t i;m off topic again sorry)
You're right though, a "line" must be drawn somewhere. As a parent I hope that our daughters know their Dad's and I tried our best to instill with in them "Free Choice" about sexual activity. I also hope that my education in the health field helped to ease "clinical" knowledge with "Moral beliefs". Moral beliefs that not only we as Parents wanted them to have, but ones they themselves developed for themselves. We think it worked. Lord knows at times they have shared the "waaay toooo much info" stuff with us, to verify we did at least a decent job.

You said "Is child porn becoming more available, or are we just witnessing better law enforcement." My opinion of your statement is this. I would like to think that through the hard work of many many people it has become much easier for not only adults like myself & my Hubby & the many Brave men & women speaking out about their atrocities. Ground breaking has and is occurring. That is why perhaps it seems there is less support for male survivors. Finally, through so many of the brave men who speak out slowly but surely Help and Support specialized for men is happening. It did not happen over night for women, though it may seem so. But I have faith that soon through the struggles of not just men, but even the prestruggles of women Support and help could happen faster and be even more improved.
Laws are constantly changing, some for better some for worse. Yet there is hope in my heart that it is somehow "easier" for those who are being abused to have a voice now. Law enforcment surely is overwhelmed with the constant changing. I believe that the "same amount" of abuse is occurring, but we now have better equipment to "catch" the bad guy. Better knowledge of what to look for in signs of potential sexual abuse. AND even better trained medical personel to handle such cases. Perhaps I am too optimistic when it comes to eliminating this horrific crime against our humanity. Yet through it all I want to believe change can happen for the better, the journey will be painful but worth it in the end.

As Hubby & I talked about this subject last night we both gained new insights. But I believe I gained more of his trials and pain than he did of mine. We had argued earlier about how I was concerned that he was slipping back into old behavior with drinking alcohol again, that it set off my "red flags" & "alarms" that he was gaining speed to set himself up for re- offense. It hurt me to bring this up, but I owed myself, and him, and any unsuspecting person he may hurt should he not work his program. He was angry that I felt as long as I was with him when he drank a beer I was more comfortable, I could see & hear if he was "crossing appropriate boundaries". He was angry that I could even begin to think that he could ever injur again.
I pointed out to him the red flags I saw. 1) His ever increasing stress level at work 2) His ever increasing stress level at school 3) A HUGE increase in stress due to my health 4 ) The new "added" stress of us both learning to live together again. He was so angry we had to stop the conversation, me with an attitude of "fine, I just wont alert you to what I see, I'll just keep my mouth shut and let what ever happens happen. I know for myself how I would handle myself if you broke the law again". (ahhh sarcasm a wicked early learned weapon of anger and defense). But he was tired and so was I when I brought the subject up. After sharing with me my words only said to him "I will never trust you again". I assured him that I trusted him with many things, but this was NOT an area that I felt I could completely trust him. An area that while he may work his program I must be allowed to process and given lots of time to "learn" to trust again. AND given the fact that still even some 3 yrs later I am finding out about sh*t he did that is new to me I must be allowed to process it for the FIRST time. That it was all NEW to me... this he understood.
Later he came to me to tell me that he had been invited to a birthday party of an ex coworker (female that he knows i have jealousy about), he had thought about our previous conversation and declined the invitation.
Do you know, this is one time that I can say that I feel "cherished and respected" perhaps for the "first time" in our relationship? I told him that, it seemed a tad sad, yet it was a moment of joy also. For us it was growth.

Quote:
Part of my understanding has led to a degree of ....I hate to use the word 'forgiveness' because it implies that I am letting abusers get away with their offences - I'm never going to do that.
But I will spare compassion for the opportunist as long as they stand up and be counted.
I do that because I recognise that my behaviours were driven by the same triggers, and followed the same patterns, as the opportunistic offenders. The final outcome was different, I acted with men because boys didn't interest me. But it's a fine line.
This proves the fine line I think. For me I don't have to forgive the "act", but I cannot carry the burden of the energy it takes to hate and be angry. This is the part I forgive myself for not putting HUGE amounts of energy anymore into not only the pain I suffered, but that others suffered, and others will surely follow our suit to some sufferage.
It is about empathy. The only way I can develope empathy, is to understand the "drivers" that create the actions. We know it is not as simplistic as "i was abused, so there fore I just went onto repeat what had been done to me". For if that were the case, what then of us who NEVER go on to repeat the behaviors done to us? Yes, some us act out our abuse with consenting adults, but with child like minds and souls and the pain from those acts. Yet, if it were so simple the terrifying degrading thoughts would not follow. Those god awful thoughts of, I want to make this stop, I am nothing but a big piece of shit, I wish someone would kill me so I no longer have to keep living this. (those are thots my hubby shared with me last evening) No matter how much I may dislike that he is a sex addict & that he may develope a "crush" on some female who was or is kind to him, I must seek to understand and have true empathy not just for the horrors of what that bastard did to him. But, because I have chose to continue to be his life partner I too have chosen to accept his weakness's, thereby making me responsible to be "alert" to what could be triggers for him to act out again.
I take that job and obligation to our society very seriously. I am obligated to him to ask him the rotten tough questions and risk getting hateful comments back, to risk seeing the horrible pain in him knowing he will forever live with the after effects of his behavior.
And as he said to me last night "Forever I will look into the faces of the very people who have kept me alive, and love me in spite of myself and know that I have hurt them in the worst way possible. It is my obligation to work to make the amends, like it or not."
That came from a man who says he struggles to communicate and sucks at english? I wonder WHO he is comparing himself to?

When I shared your line of having "rightous rage" with hubby, that placed a huge amount of perspective for BOTH of us. I believe we must have this, and are more than "due" the rightous rage, how else Dave can we turn something so ugly done to us into change to impact such an ugliness in the world.
For my own healing process I used (& yes still use) a lot of anger to make change. I have to make many steps of processing it so that it can be acceptable to "society". But anger is a powerful tool, and it does not neccessarily have to be one of negativity. Sometimes it is ok to scream and yell to get attention.
May we all find Peace,
Sammy

PS, as Hubby & I spoke last night one thing that we discovered in well at least myself. Before all of this "fright night bullshit", it was very easy for me to say about those accused of S.O. - shoot them, kill them they dont deserve another chance. Through our own trials and tribulations we / I now see the gray areas. AND what I have learned sadly is that a Judicial System that I had more than every faith in but Touted and Proclaimed its Greatness I now hold more FEAR of than any of my abusers I ever had.


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#66796 - 05/27/05 04:52 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
It takes a lot of courage to participate in a discussion like this.

Sort of like walking on eggshells, but under each egg is a claymore mine!

Kablooey! and there goes a leg or both perhaps.

Very treacherous travelling here if you believe in eggshells and land mines; in everything being black and white; that there is simply a dividing line between good and evil and everyone is on one side or another.

There is quite a rarified atmosphere in that idealized place were men (and women) either do Good or do Evil and the twain never shall be commingled.

So rarified in fact, that it is hard to breathe there, hard to be human.

Victims of sexual abuse, like me, after a lifetime of blaming myself for what someone else perpetrated upon me, are so glad to shed that burden of misappropriated responsibility, that I am afraid to let anyone else lay their burden down; perhaps for fear that I be asked or tempted to pick it up again.

Maybe that eggshell and landmine world with its air so thin that nothing much can grow or move seems safe after the dirty, ripe places we have been unwillingly thrust.

It's not.

Sterile and void of nuance its dry, lifeless, motionless emptiness is full of mummies; dried out lifeless, wrapped in bandages of self preservation.

What you are writing about is the reality of sexual abuse, the down and dirty, the mixed up, confused, scary and difficult places it takes us and the people around us. It is life, at least a part of it, and seems unrelentingly mixed with the joy, hope, love and connection that we all seek.

I'm glad that you all are here to hold my hand as we walk through this together. It feels real--too real--and much like the complex, fecund, organic, transient, precious state of being called life.

My heart goes out to you, Sammy and to your husband and family and to us all as we struggle and fight to remain human and loving and fallible creatures seeking our way through.

To those who would judge and condemn, I would say only "There but for the grace of God, go I or you or anyone of us."

It takes a lot of courage to enter into a conversation like this--more courage than I have. Yet, here I am; in it anyway. You guys must have lent me some of yours and for that I am grateful.

As I am grateful for all of you.

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#66797 - 05/27/05 05:28 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Sammy

Your de>

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#66798 - 05/27/05 06:47 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Danny & Guize,
First Danny I must compliment you on your beautiful poetic writing style. The subject matter may be of the most horrible, yet your abilities with words made reading this a soothing journey in itself.
You said so much,(paraphrasing) that we were here holding hands walking through this battle field filled with land mines and as I read through I could see the dried out lifeless mummies. Mummies of only what I can imagine of those who have gone before us and did not survive long enough to thrive in spite of losing limbs and parts of heart & soul.

Quote:
we struggle and fight to remain human and loving and fallible creatures seeking our way through.
My God Danny, the BEAUTIFUL POWER in that sentence alone moved me to tears of hope and joy! For far too long too too many of us have not felt human and did not believe that we could or ever made it through. We are a Testimony to ourselves and our brothers and sisters with our strengths we've used to survive.

Quote:
It takes a lot of courage to enter into a conversation like this--more courage than I have. Yet, here I am; in it anyway. You guys must have lent me some of yours and for that I am grateful.

As I am grateful for all of you.

Danny, you have had courage all along. Perhaps because your strengths were being used to protect yourself along the way you were unable to recognize this. But please Celebrate yourself too... for many of us, myself many times have drawn strength from you also. We do lend to each other all sorts of needs that were not met when we needed them during our crisis times. So as we travel back now and talk sitting on our eggshell seats balanced precariously on landmines we now have the ability to receive and share the support, listening, understanding, hugs, the ability to cry now, and the most important unconditional love. There is no price to pay anymore, we are paid in full.

Thank You & Much Peace, Sammy


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#66799 - 05/27/05 07:31 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
SAR & Guize,
SAR you did answer that question I asked, can guys claim date rape also? I knew all along of course they can. I know and have met females who have bragged of their exploits of "using men" for sexual pleasure.
"Broken children" - yes I felt that way and to this day the only time I feel as a "Whole person" is when I am with my little family of 4, my chosen family and of course my Siblings who survived in spite of everything.

My own Hubby shared with me that he & a girl that was the daugh of his babysitters family sexually experimented frequently. Only thru trying to process my own SA did he come to say "She HAD to have been molested herself, no 6 yr old could EVER have had the knowlege she did to try to do those things". He went along with the experimentation as he was just a 6 yo himself.
What sadness for these young teen boys, they are our "Men" now. Yet, I am sure that like me when your sweetie talks of his pain, it is the little boy that you can see. No longer does the large well muscled man appear before you. It is the child he once was, the child who forever remains in each of us. Sometimes the child comes out to laugh at nice happy memories, and other times the dark, shadowed shamed child appears. We attempt to soothe this childs pain, and it feels fruitless and empty when we reach to touch them and we feel in the palms of our hands or filling our arms adult muscles tightened and too large for us to pull onto our laps and cradle as a small boys voice weeps or screams in anger. Yet SAR we go on trying, because to NOT try is to abandon yet again the very person we love as unconditionally as loving our own children.

Quote:
In many ways I was easier to influence as a teen than I was as a young kid, because I was so willing to "act the part" of any label that I feared might fit me-- whether that label was one I wanted or not.
I too can identify with this. I went along so willingly mostly driven by fear that I would be "found out" that I was that shameless slut I was told I was. I forgive myself for those actions now, only with understanding the drivers. Understanding that did not come without huge misguided anger, or inappropriate sexual contact thinking "I am "choosing now", I am in control of who". I was not in control nor choosing I was seeking to find some sense of Power over the reality that I am powerless more than I want anyone to know.
SAR, do you notice in our society such as in commercials or Advertisments how men are "dumbed down"? Shown as an inability to know how to clean a toilet, or microwave a meal? Let alone operate a stove & cook? Heaven forbid hand them a baby and expect a diaper to be able to put a diaper on the child? Shown as having an inability to do laundry or "hear" anything but the tv?
Does this make you angry? Does your Sweetie get angry at this shit? Even newspaper reports or magazine reports & Ads expound this attitude. That men can only work outside on the lawn, or get dirty drinking beer ogling women & playing as children. That the females are shown with a look of disgust of cleaning up AFTER the male.
Look thru your local newspaper, can you find an article about crime that is HUGE of a female committing some horrible act? I bet you can find several long columns and follow up stories of the men who have committed even the slightest of crimes i.e. DUI, ... even the MEN reporters are given the "gory story", while females get to write about nice historic homes, or neighborhood activities and recipes, or how to make some damn stain come out of a piece of clothing easier.
Hubby and I call this the "dumbing down of our Men". ANd if perhaps we should find a man who is successful at his job he is quickly labled as either a workaholic or a stoic unfeeling bastard who only thinks of the almighty dollar.
Even the stupid movies are guilty of this same thing. Our society demeans the very people we EXPECT to protect us, take care of us, and yet we give no credit to the single parent father. Quick to lable the men as Lousy non supporting if they dont pay child support. WHY is it our men are expected to ONLY be the bread winners?
We unfairly put pressures on them that are almost humanly impossible for ANYONE to reach -- and Heaven forbid they cry... then the comments come out about questioning their sexuality.
I have to admit I never have been able to really reach inside myself and try to find out WHY I dislike women so much. I never have liked working with them, I find them catty and irritating to have to throw these damn "parties" whether its tupperware or some baby shower? Who gives a shit? People have babies all the time, WHY is it the marriage tradition it is the WOMAN who gets to pick the "colors" and china patterns?
I know I am rambling, but I feel that as females we are our own worst enemies, but we want to blame the men for "keeping us oppressed".
Does any other woman besides myself think that perhaps men have given up on us simply because we treat men with such little respect?
Growing up I know that behind my fathers back my mother never had a nice word to say about him. She degraded him and his friends constantly, and her friends whispering the same shit at the table when the men were outside trimming trees and such. Truly it is a wonder at all I even like to cook or paint my nails.
My husband takes more than his fair share of cooking meals, is a better cook at many recipes than I am. Many Many of his Auto Tech co workers cook as hobbies and provide. AND my hubby does not do it because I am working or not well enough to do it... he does it because HE CAN and he likes to. I didnt have to teach him to do laundry, & if he needs it done now and I havent gotten to it, there are no comments on me not doing "womens work", he just does it.
I know I am rambling and it doesnt make much sense, but it seems to be just an extension of WHY and HOW men are so mistreated and mislabled in this society. I still am scared to seek the answers as to why I have so little trust or respect for women as a whole? Afraid of myself perhaps.
I know that when the time comes that you and your sweetie begin to face the changes in your relationships that deal directly with his abuse you too will be strong and loving and supporting. I hope too SAR that you will share bravely with us here. I think it is the only way perhaps that we can learn from each other, and find those small ways and big ways to be supportive, not just of our partners but more importantly supportive unconditionally of each others trials and tribulations.
May Peace find Us All,
Sammy


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#66800 - 05/27/05 11:10 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I came in tonight and wanted to add to my last post, so I haven't read a thing between my last post and this one, but I did notice that this is a busy post.

What I wanted to add is this-
I think a lot of what I said comes down to engaging a degree of common sense, something that we all feel we do anyway, and also a cause for dissention between people. But 'my' common sense tells me that we are human and we have our failings. God knows I have my fair share of them.

"try telling that to a survivor!"
I agree, we as survivors do have more cause than many people to dismiss anyone using "human failings" as an excuse.
But to me the important thing is the word "excuse", it is wrong to make any excuse, totally wrong.
But if someone admits to their human failing and then does something positive about it, such as ensuring that it doesn't happen again, respecting the damage that they have done to their victim / survivor ( although that alone isn't going to 'cure' the ills of the survivor ) then I personally can find compassion for that person.

To make any excuse for our / their dysfunctional behaviour is wrong, and it does a bigger disservice to the offender than the survivor. ( why the f**k should we care ? ) Well I care because an opportunistic offender that accepts their offence and deals with it is very unlikely to offend again, so to me the effort on my part to accept their efforts is worth it.

I haven't ever dealt with a repeat offender face to face, other than my own abusers, so I don't know if I could extend that level of understanding and compassion to such a person; I honestly don't think I could at this time.
But I have sat and talked honestly and openly with opportunistic offenders - they've done the honest talking - and I can deal with that, yes it's difficult, but I see so much reflected from them that I recognise in my own behaviours that I can't do anything but empathise with certain aspects of their behaviours.
I scares the shit out of me, I realise how fine the line is between what they've done and what I did.
Maybe it was a tiny degree more conscience and morality that made me fantasize about men rather than boys?
I really don't know what made the difference, and I would dearly love to know what made me choose my direction over theirs.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66801 - 05/27/05 11:47 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Well, I've read the replies inbetween, and it's going to take all week to reply...

But this cracked me up, I had to leave the room, have a smoke and return to it once I'd stopped crying.#

Quote:
I must seek to understand and have true empathy not just for the horrors of what that bastard did to him. But, because I have chose to continue to be his life partner I too have chosen to accept his weakness's, thereby making me responsible to be "alert" to what could be triggers for him to act out again.
I take that job and obligation to our society very seriously. I am obligated to him to ask him the rotten tough questions and risk getting hateful comments back, to risk seeing the horrible pain in him knowing he will forever live with the after effects of his behavior.
And as he said to me last night "Forever I will look into the faces of the very people who have kept me alive, and love me in spite of myself and know that I have hurt them in the worst way possible. It is my obligation to work to make the amends, like it or not."
That came from a man who says he struggles to communicate and sucks at english? I wonder WHO he is comparing himself to?
Sammy, I think he's comparing himself to the 'old hubby'.
And you must surely be on the very brink of seeing the 'real hubby'?

I'm lost for words, I really am. All I can say is I'm so glad guys like me have partners like you around.
I can see bits of all of you in my wife, and her in all of you, and I just don't know what I'd do without her.

thank you ALL.
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66802 - 05/28/05 12:41 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Danny, Guys.

Quote:
What you are writing about is the reality of sexual abuse, the down and dirty, the mixed up, confused, scary and difficult places it takes us and the people around us. It is life, at least a part of it, and seems unrelentingly mixed with the joy, hope, love and connection that we all seek.
And it is also mixed up with dysfunction, pain and despair.
I'm ( and I think that you'll agree Danny ) certain that this just doesn't apply to Survivors, everyone goes through life in a series of these ( and many other ) states.

How can we possibly draw lines in the sand, pass laws and make moral judgements when we're dealing with the variety of humanity? Logically we can't, but we have to try otherwise anarchy prevails. So what we arrive at is compromise.

Compromise is good, even if we don't personally accept that the particular compromise arrived at suits us as an individual, we accept that our role in society means that we have to accept the compromise or be a lawbreaker.
That works for the huge majority, but on the fringes there are messed up people who aren't able, or just plain don't, accept the compromises. That describes the two groups I've talked about before as well.

SAR and Sammy have had a heartbreaking discussion here about teenage sexuality, and how the whole 'sex' thing can and does become a weapon. A primitive abuse of power, something survivors are familiar with.
But teenagers can and do use it amongst themselves, it's what I experienced as abuse as my main abusers were barely three years older than me.
They were boys, if they had been girls would I be here now? I have no idea, but SAR and Sammy have described actions that are so close to my experience that it's scary. And in the early 1960's there probably weren't laws that covered my abuse, much less moral conventions. A bit of 'buggery' at boarding school was accepted.

So I have to accept what happened as "the down and dirty, the mixed up, confused, scary and difficult places it takes us and the people around us." What option have I got?
I have no practical or official option open to me, so I am forced to accept my position and concentrate on whatever is left. Actually it's not 'whatever is left'; it's where I started.

I have to concentrate on 'ME'.
To many people that's a messy option, mixed up and scary. But it's the option that I have arrived at on my own, and in doing so I have to accept that 'life' isn't black and white, there's a complete rainbow of colours inbetween.

Opening our minds to these rainbow coloured thoughts can only help us as individuals.
When something that offends us initially falls, upon closer examination, very close to our line in the sand we owe it to ourselves to go back and look again, and keep looking until we truly understand what we see before us. Then we can act and think with clarity; it might not be the majority view, but if we're happy with it then that's got to be good for us, or at least a good starting point.

It's way too easy, and lazy, to just push people and problems into nice easy compartments.
Life isn't that 'nice and easy' - hell, we're not that 'nice and easy' sometimes!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66803 - 05/28/05 01:38 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Dave,

You are so right. It is not easy.

Your words moved me to remember some poetic words of another man.

A famous man who is intimately familiar with the most horrible abuse had this to say.

Quote:
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Alexander Solzhenitsyn (1918 - ), The Gulag Archipelago
Thanks, all.

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#66804 - 05/28/05 06:26 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
((((((((((((Sammy))))))))))))

First off, I'm so very glad to see you back here, and so very sorry I haven't kept in contact with you. There's been some heavy s**t going on in my life, but that's not an excuse.

You raise some very difficult, challenging, and relevent concerns, not the least of which is: can men be victims of date rape?

Simple answer - yes. Anyone can. If the victim is forced, either by alcohol, threats, manipulation, or any other coercive method, then it is rape.

What constitutes "force" and coercion? Most of the time, this is pretty black-and-white. This is easy. But what if there's more ambiguity?

************TRIGGER WARNING!************

What if there was sexual activity, and one of the participants says to stop? If the other person continues, is this rape? Is it traumatic?

What if there's consent between people who are legally UNABLE to consent (namely, statutory rape)?

WHat if there's some form of psychiactric condition that impairs rational consent (i.e. disassociation/MPD)?

These are the hard questions, and I'm afraid there's no hard, fast answer to any of them. I know what my gut-level response is, but my view may be affected by my experiences. This was brought up to me recently when I discovered, thanks to an article on my favorite topic of scorn, pre-teen modelling websites, a site dedicated to "girllovers." I knew this sort of thing existed for men who "love" boys (i.e. NAMBLA), but this one took the cake by talking directly to young girls in language that was WAAAAAY to sophisticated for them and even using concepts (i.e. a "mutually agreeable covenent") that could be very seductive without taking into account how naive children are.

Not all children are unaware of sex. Indeed, most are, thanks to the media. But their awareness is countered by their basic impulsiveness and immaturity. And yet, there are some people who think it's possible for children to "willingly" engage in sexual activity with adults.

Is it so farfetched an idea? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's so far off the frigging scope of rationality there should be NO arguments about it. But people who are experts debate about it.

************END TRIGGER WARNING************


There can be a debate on ANY of these issues. My personal view of this is - if it has a negative impact on you and there was a question of coercion AT ALL, it was rape.

So, yes, men can be date-raped. And they can be date-raped by women.

The question remains, Sammy, and I have no view into the situation but yours and what you've spelled out here, though; was what happened to your husband date-rape with him as victim or the woman in question as victim?

I can't rightly say. I don't know what was in either of their heads. Only they do. I guess the hardest question is what you think. Was it mutual, was HE coerced, or was SHE?

I wish I had the answers. I'll help with any perspective you want, bu this is what you have to answer for yourself.

((((((((((((Sammy))))))))))))

Love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#66805 - 05/28/05 10:01 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SAR posted this -

Quote:
I don't care how old you are, you can only ever exercise the options that you know about-- and as teens, even as older teens, our knowledge of the options was very limited by our experiences. If I "knew" that other choices were out there, I thought of them as "out there" but impossibly separated from my life-- sort of how I "knew" how people lived in the past or I "knew" that I would weigh something else on another planet-- not relevant, not part of my daily decision making. In many ways I was easier to influence as a teen than I was as a young kid, because I was so willing to "act the part" of any label that I feared might fit me-- whether that label was one I wanted or not.
And it makes a lot of sense, there's a whole section of society that remain ignorant about sex and all it's other responsibilities.
That ignorance is due to many different influences ( or lack of them ! ) AND the wrong influences, from using sexually explicit talk in front of kids to actually abusing them.

All of these give the kid the wrong ideas about sex, but they seem to believe that they "know it all" ; then they end up in this situation, if they're girls, or in what a boy might think is a a gay 'relationship'

This story hit the news just this week, and it's appaling. Both from the serial ignorance passed from mother to daughters, and the fact that nobody seems to have been questioned about 'abuse'.
But these girls seem to have gone into a sexual relationship with their eyes wide open.


Quote:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050523/140/fjkcf.html

Tuesday May 24, 04:22 AM

Teen Mum Sisters Get 30k In Benefits

Three schoolgirl sisters all with babies have defended living rent-free in a council house on benefits worth more than 30,000 a year.Julie Atkins and daughters Natasha Williams, now 18, Jade Williams, 15, and Jemma Williams, 14, survive solely on benefits of 600 a week - an annual income of about 31,000.Mrs Atkins admitted her daughters had "ruined their lives", but blamed their situation on the school system.

The girls say the fathers of their babies have had no contact with their children and contributed nothing towards the upkeep.

Youngest daughter Jemma was the first to fall pregnant, at the age of 12, after having sex with her teenage boyfriend. She gave birth to son T-Jay in February last year.

Just weeks later Jade, then 14, and 16-year-old Natasha - who is in a secret relationship with the baby's 38-year-old Asian father - found they were pregnant.

Natasha had daughter Amani in November and Jade followed with Lita in December.

The two younger sisters are still at school and are the only young mothers in the playground. Jade sits four GCSEs this year and hopes to work in IT. Jemma takes her exams next year.

All four mothers live rent free in their three-bedroom Derby house and receive a combination of income support, tax credits and child benefit.

Double divorcee Mrs Atkins, 38, remains unrepentant about the family's situation. She told the Sunday Mercury: "I don't care what people say about me.

"I blame the schools - sex education for young girls should be better. They have all ruined their lives because they are far too young to have children."
Should the fathers be blamed? All I know is what I read in the press, but there seems to enough 'evidence' to prosecute some guys.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66806 - 05/31/05 02:15 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hmm Dave

Quote:
they end up in this situation, if they're girls, or in what a boy might think is a a gay 'relationship'
Or if they're boys, they end up raising their kids too. There are some very good young fathers out there-- some stuck with the girl and some stuck with the kid when the girl did not.

Of course we should blame boys and men when they don't step up to the plate and act as fathers to their children-- but we need to be sure that boys and men are being praised and recognized when they do.

LIKE MY WONDERFUL BOYFRIEND \:\)

It is not always ignorance either. I don't think most adults are willing to believe how many teen parents took the risks with their eyes wide open. There are boys and girls out there who want to be parents very much (or think they do).

I'll also bet that just because those two girls are the only moms on the playground doesn't mean that they're the only girls on the playground who've been pregnant.


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#66807 - 05/31/05 10:30 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
hi guize,
sitting in hospital waiting til tommorrow for angioplasty #22 -- wish me luck,
So I pop on line to hide from ;the hideous Kratchett Nurses (teasin) - and I read Dave's article posting.... and as a Mommy I just cant say this loud enuff or strong enuff

*******CAUTION CUSSIN' DISCUSSIN'**********

AS a Parent it is MY responsibility to teach my children about sex and morals. That does not exclude my use of any materials written that I would find helpful, or people or doctors ;or family or friends or planned parenthood etc.l
Is. I would have probably thot that Dave's post was B.S. except i believe my sister (who doesnt know dave \:D )
When my Sis was in OBGYN study for nursing here she had a young 13 yo who was giving birth for the 1st time. "Grandma" was so proud of her as she was the 3rd or 5th daugh of hers who was giving birth as a young unwed mom... the ages the "other" daughs were when they gave her "grandchildrend?" - 15 - 17 and "grandmom" herself gave birth the 1st time at 17.
I dont give a crap how poor someone may be, there are endless bottomless pits of money available to help prevent unplanned teen pregnancy & STD's... who does Sammy lay the responsibility on in Dave's article? THAT GRANDMOM!!! If she knew if enough to spread her effing legs and what a period is/was then she had enough sense to be able to tell her daughters HOW babies got made... that article smelled of one effing thing to me ONLY!!
Too Fucking Lazy To GET an EDUCATION AND A JOB!
I live in an area of my city that is in some cases fairly labeled as....generational welfare.
No matter the helping hands out and up it pisses me off that this shit can stir the pot and make those who are really trying to break the cycle look bad thus making the entire population looking bad....
Sorry for the off topic rant, but maybe the meds are kicking my fat butt...
SCOT--- BIG GIANT HUGS AND THANK YOUS FOR ALL YOUR NEVER ENDING SUPPORT AND GOOD THOTS, feel free to write anytime I still have the same Addy,
May Peace Fill Us All,
Sammy


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#66808 - 05/31/05 11:23 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SAR
Quote:
It is not always ignorance either. I don't think most adults are willing to believe how many teen parents took the risks with their eyes wide open. There are boys and girls out there who want to be parents very much (or think they do).
This is true, a very small number do want a baby for ( what they believe ) is the right reason, but I think most get pregnant out of ignorance or for the money!
There's a big debate here, linked to the EU. Constitution and the French "NO" vote. In the UK it makes financial sense to be a single mother, unlike France and Germany. Guess which country has the highest number of under age single mothers?

Which is what Sammy is so indignant about, there's a culture that makes having babies at 12 acceptable, but at what cost?

One rarely mentioned aspect is that the same culture sends out a message to kids that sex is ok, both girls and boys see it happening without negative consequences and think "I'll have some of that !"
Which gives all the predators open season. Is the 38 yo man who's got the 15yo girl pregnant an abuser or pedophile?
His fate is all in the balance of that girl, if she say's she's been abused then he goes to jail, if she stands by him, he stays free.
I have no idea whatsoever of the situation other than what I read in the press, but that guy could be charged with abuse on nothing more than a whim.

Whatever the outcome of their relationship, and the fate of these three girls and their babies, the culture that makes young sex acceptable does NOBODY any favours, least of all to us as survivors.
Imagine that the 15yo girl is being abused, but lives in complete terror of the 38yo man and underpins his lies? Girl or boy, it makes being believed that much harder.
Maybe the girl seduced him? Possibly they're in love? What does someone living in an abusive situation 'see'? They see that although there's an outcry from the media, as expected, there has been NO MENTION of any action being taken against this older man, the 'genuine' victim doesn't see any hope.

I read that the 12yo's babys father is 14yo, that I can understand, and it's a different issue as well.
But the confusion of this growing culture isn't doing a damned thing to stop it happeneing. It certainly isn't reducing the ignorance that leads to babies.

It's why every society that I can think of has some moral code or age of consent that protects kids from the sexual and power abuse. It's worth fighting for as well.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66809 - 06/01/05 08:11 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
now we're back at the beginning with a statement Dave made (ps still havent had surgery yet, waiting for lab to open so if I babble it really is the PRE treat drugs)-

Dave said:
Quote:
Which gives all the predators open season. Is the 38 yo man who's got the 15yo girl pregnant an abuser or pedophile?
His fate is all in the balance of that girl, if she say's she's been abused then he goes to jail, if she stands by him, he stays free.
I have no idea whatsoever of the situation other than what I read in the press, but that guy could be charged with abuse on nothing more than a whim.
Ok guize, my opinion only is 1) simple to see his guy is an ABUSER of the 15 yo girl. B) are the facts i've read true that by the time an "abuser/ pedophile" is "caught" they have already committed approximately 300 acts of abuse? (based on age difference only)

***His fate is all in the balance of that girl, if she say's she's been abused then he goes to jail, if she stands by him, he stays free.****

Which Guize brings us to Hubby, tho the female Hubby was with was 20 at the time, in at least "Our State' the "Law" is required to respond to ANY accusations with in a 24 hr period. Accusations made by ANYONE!!! The "victim" has no choice in the matter if the law decides to "prosecute" the case.
So I find it hard to believe unless Dave's countrys laws are different that the girl could deny or disallow any charges pressed? (not saying it aint a possibility, but the 15 - 38 age difference is pretty extreme.)
In saying all that even tho yes my Hubby IS a convicted sex offender - the price he is paying is it small enough to make the "OVERALL" good intention of the law worth it in the long run? (i believe so)
Or do we throw the baby out with the bath water on this to start over? My personal opinion very biased as a survivor myself (& that my Hubby has stepped up to the plate to take his "punishments with healings") -- we keep this law until we hammer out the dents for further perfection to make that 68 GTO run with the BEST.

I would still like to hear Ken Singer's P.O.V. with this discussion. Ken with your experience of working with "Offenders" - I would highly value your opinion. Especially to this question: If a survivor developes an "addiction i.e. porn/sex are they more likely to become offenders if they go on with out TX for the SA?
Peace For Us ALL,
SAmmy

ps edited as i hit post b4 i was ready to finish , yes I am veeerrry computer ILLiterate :rolleyes:


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#66810 - 06/01/05 08:47 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
And one more thing guize,
Quote:
It is not always ignorance either. I don't think most adults are willing to believe how many teen parents took the risks with their eyes wide open. There are boys and girls out there who want to be parents very much (or think they do).
Not alwasy ignorance on the part of the "Teen", but of Parents who lack (for better words for me at this time) the Kahonas to speak clinically, truthfully , and honestly even if they lack an "education" to be able to teach the intricate facts of sex ....

I keep going back to the part about WHY a teen wouldnt at least TRY to access help from SOME adiult that was "safe" for info if the topic of sex was not made TABOO a;t home.

if sex is discussed as brought up & answered age appropriate all the childs life wth no shame attached, wouoldnt it stand that the end ADult would then be "Sexually Healthy"??

Peace and Keep your Slicks on the Tracks "that's where the real races are won"
Sammy


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#66811 - 06/02/05 12:37 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sammy

Quote:
I keep going back to the part about WHY a teen wouldnt at least TRY to access help from SOME adult that was "safe" for info if the topic of sex was not made TABOO at home.
Maybe some of the younger members will add their answers here, as these days everyone seems to be that much more open about sex talk.

But back in the 60's when I got interested in sex, and abused, there was nobody.

The BBC wouldn't even show a drama or film where a couple kissed on the lips in those days.
And my father would turn the TV off at the very thought of anything sexual anyway.
I can remember trying to watch "Top of the Pops" in the late 60's as a 14 - 15yo and they had dancers who wore skimpy outfits, for the time, and he would turn the damn thing off! So there was never any chance of the 'father son chat' there then....

Sex education in a single sex boarding school consisted of learning about friggin frog spawn!
"Do women have spawn as well Mr Edwards ?"
That's when I got to stand in the corner for the rest of the lesson.

I sincerely hope that things are different now, but sometimes things come along that tell me "no".

And offenders will take advantage of that ignorance, how often did survivors hear the words "I'm just teaching you about sex"

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66812 - 06/02/05 04:38 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hi Sammy

Hope you're doing okay today and everything went well with #22. In fact I hope you're getting the R&R you need and NOT reading this today.

Dave

It's not really the point of this thread, so if you want to talk about it more send me a PM... but there's a lot more to why teens have babies than makes it into the press. It's not about ignorance and greed. But we are a culture that jumps at any excuse to look the other way when the evidence shows that we're not protecting our kids-- and big bellies on middle schoolers is some damning evidence-- so why not blame the victims and their families?

Kids who have babies are hurt kids first and foremost-- I mean if we can accept that other types of acting out are ways of saying "Hey look, can't you see that I'm in trouble here?"-- what louder way is there to say it than to have your name on someone else's birth certificate. The connection between sexual abuse and involvement in a teen pregnancy is high-- higher for boys than it is for girls.

Quote:

I keep going back to the part about WHY a teen wouldnt at least TRY to access help from SOME adiult that was "safe" for info if the topic of sex was not made TABOO a;t home.
Why-- because they don't believe anyone can help them. Because they don't have a lot of hope for their future whether they becpme parents or not. Because they already feel "different" from their peers and think of their childhood as something they'd rather be done with. Because they are angry and don't trust adults, period. Because (no offense to our teens here) most kids don't consider long-term consequences of their behavior in general and they aren't magically more responsible about sex than they are about the rest of their lives. (I think a lot of the stereotype of looking for a handout comes from this-- it's not that those girls don't give thought to how they'll support their kids because they expect it will come from the government-- it's just that they don't think about it much at all because everything is fine for the moment, and to adults that translates as "in it for the money".)

THAT is what "no options" means. It doesn't mean that they don't know how to find Planned Parenthood in the phone book.


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#66813 - 06/02/05 08:25 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SAR
What I've been getting at, in my roundabout way, is that the culture ( however society has arrived at that ) creates, through legislation rightly created to protect young people of both sexes a danger for people who engage in sex with these young people.

I'll say right up front that it is WRONG for people to have sex with young people, especially when the age gap is significant enough to also include a situation where it becomes coercive and power is also abused.

But if the young person is sexually active from their own choice, and that's becoming more common, then the older person is at serious risk of being branded a sex offender.
That's right and proper, I agree entirely. The older person has a responsibility to abide by both laws and moral standards. If we don't enforce the laws then anarchy rules.

My point is that society is all too ready to pass judgement and brand ALL offenders as wrong and evil. But there's a big grey area that makes no allowances for offences that fall between what I call opportunistic and planned, and I personally don't feel at ease judging every 'offender' in the same manner throughout this range of offences.

Take the case of the female teacher and her student, ( Leternau ? ) they've recently married.
She was rightly sentenced for her offence, but they have consistently proclaimed their love for each other. The cynic in me sees the fact that they've sold their story to a tabloid and reacts badly towards that fact. But should we castigate her ( them ? ) in the same way as we pour hate on a serial offender of very young children?

I think that we should try and understand the crime, make an effort to dig a bit deeper and see how a particular offender arrived at the place they did.
Why ? because we can then begin to understand those individuals that offended against us, that way we can see with a degree of clarity our role in what happened to us. And I think that in 99% of cases we'll see that we weren't to blame.

Even if we suffered from a one-off opportunistic episode of sex abuse the offender had a responsibility to NOT offend, and there are no excuses in reality. If the offender is drunk then they should have drunk less. But society can't account for a sexually active, and possibly drunk young person.

That's the big grey area for me, and one that I can find some compassion for the older, supposedly more responsible person involved.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66814 - 06/03/05 08:02 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Hi Guize,
First of all I want to let you know I am doing not just good but FANTASTIC!!! I had an "angioplasty", just a ballooning of an occlusion. The reason I had been doing so dangerously poorly is the blockage was directly at a point where the Left main Artery & Right main Artery sort of "join" together. Surgery was not pleasant as this time the person who put me to "sleep" only used "versed" a twilight drug that keeps you awake but SUPPOSEDLY one doesnt feel anything. That's bullshit, I DID and ALWAYS do feel something and when the catheter is in the heart it causes ANGINA which is VERY painful. The bitch wouldnt give me enuff to put me to sleep all the way no matter how much I begged and my surgeon kept "assuring me" he was "almost done". Either way the BEST news I got is that even tho down the line I will never be a candidate for a heart transplant I WILL be a candidate for STEM CELL IMPLANTING, which will cause my heart to GROW new Arteries that will be major enough to keep me alive. I CRIED LIKE A BABY having this hope instilled in me. I fully expected to fight and live well for another 10 - 15 yrs, but NOW I have hope to LIVE a LONG LIFE!! shit now i am crying again ....
Ok, I am going to start a new thread as this one has sorta gone off on a different topic and has become a bit hard for me to follow. I hope ya'll dont mind but I copied and pasted into my word prgm so that I can add my comments to the newest stuff...
May Peace Fill our Hearts
Sammy


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#66815 - 06/03/05 08:44 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Quote:
Either way the BEST news I got is that even tho down the line I will never be a candidate for a heart transplant I WILL be a candidate for STEM CELL IMPLANTING, which will cause my heart to GROW new Arteries that will be major enough to keep me alive. I CRIED LIKE A BABY having this hope instilled in me. I fully expected to fight and live well for another 10 - 15 yrs, but NOW I have hope to LIVE a LONG LIFE!! shit now i am crying again ...
I'm crying for you too Sammy!!!!! \:D \:D


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#66816 - 06/03/05 11:46 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sammy
sometimes things just begin to fall into place, I hope the continue to do so.

I'm so happy for you.

Dave \:\) \:\) \:\) \:\) \:\)

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66817 - 06/14/05 01:53 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
RangerJ19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 42
Loc: North Woods
Sammy,

First off, I'm very happy to hear that you are feeling better.

I haven't posted here yet, 'cause I haven't known what to say. In all honesty this has been the hardest thread to read that I've come across.

I was mentioned right off the bat as a Sex Offender, I saw. And yeah, the guys here have been very kind and suportive as I try and deal with what was done to me as well. I'm deeply grateful to all of them.

Last night in my treatment I had reviews, and my Keepers (As I jokingly refer to the people who bust their butts trying to help me be as safe as possible) suggested that I start dating, and think about marriage.

It took me years to think that someone with my battles could be a father, or that any woman would want to go through life with someone as messed up as I am, even though I'm doing everything in my power to get as well as possible.

I guess I wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for loving your husband. I think that's also why I have such a hard time reading this post, 'cause really understanding what you're saying would mean really dealing with the idea that someone could love ME. And that scares me a lot.

But I wanted to say thank you, and thank you for loving your husband enough that you post here.

*tackle hug*

_________________________
Life is worth living.
'Cause of legal issues and the fact i'm still trying to get better, I don't PM or chat w/ minors.

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