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#66799 - 05/27/05 07:31 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
SAR & Guize,
SAR you did answer that question I asked, can guys claim date rape also? I knew all along of course they can. I know and have met females who have bragged of their exploits of "using men" for sexual pleasure.
"Broken children" - yes I felt that way and to this day the only time I feel as a "Whole person" is when I am with my little family of 4, my chosen family and of course my Siblings who survived in spite of everything.

My own Hubby shared with me that he & a girl that was the daugh of his babysitters family sexually experimented frequently. Only thru trying to process my own SA did he come to say "She HAD to have been molested herself, no 6 yr old could EVER have had the knowlege she did to try to do those things". He went along with the experimentation as he was just a 6 yo himself.
What sadness for these young teen boys, they are our "Men" now. Yet, I am sure that like me when your sweetie talks of his pain, it is the little boy that you can see. No longer does the large well muscled man appear before you. It is the child he once was, the child who forever remains in each of us. Sometimes the child comes out to laugh at nice happy memories, and other times the dark, shadowed shamed child appears. We attempt to soothe this childs pain, and it feels fruitless and empty when we reach to touch them and we feel in the palms of our hands or filling our arms adult muscles tightened and too large for us to pull onto our laps and cradle as a small boys voice weeps or screams in anger. Yet SAR we go on trying, because to NOT try is to abandon yet again the very person we love as unconditionally as loving our own children.

Quote:
In many ways I was easier to influence as a teen than I was as a young kid, because I was so willing to "act the part" of any label that I feared might fit me-- whether that label was one I wanted or not.
I too can identify with this. I went along so willingly mostly driven by fear that I would be "found out" that I was that shameless slut I was told I was. I forgive myself for those actions now, only with understanding the drivers. Understanding that did not come without huge misguided anger, or inappropriate sexual contact thinking "I am "choosing now", I am in control of who". I was not in control nor choosing I was seeking to find some sense of Power over the reality that I am powerless more than I want anyone to know.
SAR, do you notice in our society such as in commercials or Advertisments how men are "dumbed down"? Shown as an inability to know how to clean a toilet, or microwave a meal? Let alone operate a stove & cook? Heaven forbid hand them a baby and expect a diaper to be able to put a diaper on the child? Shown as having an inability to do laundry or "hear" anything but the tv?
Does this make you angry? Does your Sweetie get angry at this shit? Even newspaper reports or magazine reports & Ads expound this attitude. That men can only work outside on the lawn, or get dirty drinking beer ogling women & playing as children. That the females are shown with a look of disgust of cleaning up AFTER the male.
Look thru your local newspaper, can you find an article about crime that is HUGE of a female committing some horrible act? I bet you can find several long columns and follow up stories of the men who have committed even the slightest of crimes i.e. DUI, ... even the MEN reporters are given the "gory story", while females get to write about nice historic homes, or neighborhood activities and recipes, or how to make some damn stain come out of a piece of clothing easier.
Hubby and I call this the "dumbing down of our Men". ANd if perhaps we should find a man who is successful at his job he is quickly labled as either a workaholic or a stoic unfeeling bastard who only thinks of the almighty dollar.
Even the stupid movies are guilty of this same thing. Our society demeans the very people we EXPECT to protect us, take care of us, and yet we give no credit to the single parent father. Quick to lable the men as Lousy non supporting if they dont pay child support. WHY is it our men are expected to ONLY be the bread winners?
We unfairly put pressures on them that are almost humanly impossible for ANYONE to reach -- and Heaven forbid they cry... then the comments come out about questioning their sexuality.
I have to admit I never have been able to really reach inside myself and try to find out WHY I dislike women so much. I never have liked working with them, I find them catty and irritating to have to throw these damn "parties" whether its tupperware or some baby shower? Who gives a shit? People have babies all the time, WHY is it the marriage tradition it is the WOMAN who gets to pick the "colors" and china patterns?
I know I am rambling, but I feel that as females we are our own worst enemies, but we want to blame the men for "keeping us oppressed".
Does any other woman besides myself think that perhaps men have given up on us simply because we treat men with such little respect?
Growing up I know that behind my fathers back my mother never had a nice word to say about him. She degraded him and his friends constantly, and her friends whispering the same shit at the table when the men were outside trimming trees and such. Truly it is a wonder at all I even like to cook or paint my nails.
My husband takes more than his fair share of cooking meals, is a better cook at many recipes than I am. Many Many of his Auto Tech co workers cook as hobbies and provide. AND my hubby does not do it because I am working or not well enough to do it... he does it because HE CAN and he likes to. I didnt have to teach him to do laundry, & if he needs it done now and I havent gotten to it, there are no comments on me not doing "womens work", he just does it.
I know I am rambling and it doesnt make much sense, but it seems to be just an extension of WHY and HOW men are so mistreated and mislabled in this society. I still am scared to seek the answers as to why I have so little trust or respect for women as a whole? Afraid of myself perhaps.
I know that when the time comes that you and your sweetie begin to face the changes in your relationships that deal directly with his abuse you too will be strong and loving and supporting. I hope too SAR that you will share bravely with us here. I think it is the only way perhaps that we can learn from each other, and find those small ways and big ways to be supportive, not just of our partners but more importantly supportive unconditionally of each others trials and tribulations.
May Peace find Us All,
Sammy


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#66800 - 05/27/05 11:10 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I came in tonight and wanted to add to my last post, so I haven't read a thing between my last post and this one, but I did notice that this is a busy post.

What I wanted to add is this-
I think a lot of what I said comes down to engaging a degree of common sense, something that we all feel we do anyway, and also a cause for dissention between people. But 'my' common sense tells me that we are human and we have our failings. God knows I have my fair share of them.

"try telling that to a survivor!"
I agree, we as survivors do have more cause than many people to dismiss anyone using "human failings" as an excuse.
But to me the important thing is the word "excuse", it is wrong to make any excuse, totally wrong.
But if someone admits to their human failing and then does something positive about it, such as ensuring that it doesn't happen again, respecting the damage that they have done to their victim / survivor ( although that alone isn't going to 'cure' the ills of the survivor ) then I personally can find compassion for that person.

To make any excuse for our / their dysfunctional behaviour is wrong, and it does a bigger disservice to the offender than the survivor. ( why the f**k should we care ? ) Well I care because an opportunistic offender that accepts their offence and deals with it is very unlikely to offend again, so to me the effort on my part to accept their efforts is worth it.

I haven't ever dealt with a repeat offender face to face, other than my own abusers, so I don't know if I could extend that level of understanding and compassion to such a person; I honestly don't think I could at this time.
But I have sat and talked honestly and openly with opportunistic offenders - they've done the honest talking - and I can deal with that, yes it's difficult, but I see so much reflected from them that I recognise in my own behaviours that I can't do anything but empathise with certain aspects of their behaviours.
I scares the shit out of me, I realise how fine the line is between what they've done and what I did.
Maybe it was a tiny degree more conscience and morality that made me fantasize about men rather than boys?
I really don't know what made the difference, and I would dearly love to know what made me choose my direction over theirs.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66801 - 05/27/05 11:47 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Well, I've read the replies inbetween, and it's going to take all week to reply...

But this cracked me up, I had to leave the room, have a smoke and return to it once I'd stopped crying.#

Quote:
I must seek to understand and have true empathy not just for the horrors of what that bastard did to him. But, because I have chose to continue to be his life partner I too have chosen to accept his weakness's, thereby making me responsible to be "alert" to what could be triggers for him to act out again.
I take that job and obligation to our society very seriously. I am obligated to him to ask him the rotten tough questions and risk getting hateful comments back, to risk seeing the horrible pain in him knowing he will forever live with the after effects of his behavior.
And as he said to me last night "Forever I will look into the faces of the very people who have kept me alive, and love me in spite of myself and know that I have hurt them in the worst way possible. It is my obligation to work to make the amends, like it or not."
That came from a man who says he struggles to communicate and sucks at english? I wonder WHO he is comparing himself to?
Sammy, I think he's comparing himself to the 'old hubby'.
And you must surely be on the very brink of seeing the 'real hubby'?

I'm lost for words, I really am. All I can say is I'm so glad guys like me have partners like you around.
I can see bits of all of you in my wife, and her in all of you, and I just don't know what I'd do without her.

thank you ALL.
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66802 - 05/28/05 12:41 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Danny, Guys.

Quote:
What you are writing about is the reality of sexual abuse, the down and dirty, the mixed up, confused, scary and difficult places it takes us and the people around us. It is life, at least a part of it, and seems unrelentingly mixed with the joy, hope, love and connection that we all seek.
And it is also mixed up with dysfunction, pain and despair.
I'm ( and I think that you'll agree Danny ) certain that this just doesn't apply to Survivors, everyone goes through life in a series of these ( and many other ) states.

How can we possibly draw lines in the sand, pass laws and make moral judgements when we're dealing with the variety of humanity? Logically we can't, but we have to try otherwise anarchy prevails. So what we arrive at is compromise.

Compromise is good, even if we don't personally accept that the particular compromise arrived at suits us as an individual, we accept that our role in society means that we have to accept the compromise or be a lawbreaker.
That works for the huge majority, but on the fringes there are messed up people who aren't able, or just plain don't, accept the compromises. That describes the two groups I've talked about before as well.

SAR and Sammy have had a heartbreaking discussion here about teenage sexuality, and how the whole 'sex' thing can and does become a weapon. A primitive abuse of power, something survivors are familiar with.
But teenagers can and do use it amongst themselves, it's what I experienced as abuse as my main abusers were barely three years older than me.
They were boys, if they had been girls would I be here now? I have no idea, but SAR and Sammy have described actions that are so close to my experience that it's scary. And in the early 1960's there probably weren't laws that covered my abuse, much less moral conventions. A bit of 'buggery' at boarding school was accepted.

So I have to accept what happened as "the down and dirty, the mixed up, confused, scary and difficult places it takes us and the people around us." What option have I got?
I have no practical or official option open to me, so I am forced to accept my position and concentrate on whatever is left. Actually it's not 'whatever is left'; it's where I started.

I have to concentrate on 'ME'.
To many people that's a messy option, mixed up and scary. But it's the option that I have arrived at on my own, and in doing so I have to accept that 'life' isn't black and white, there's a complete rainbow of colours inbetween.

Opening our minds to these rainbow coloured thoughts can only help us as individuals.
When something that offends us initially falls, upon closer examination, very close to our line in the sand we owe it to ourselves to go back and look again, and keep looking until we truly understand what we see before us. Then we can act and think with clarity; it might not be the majority view, but if we're happy with it then that's got to be good for us, or at least a good starting point.

It's way too easy, and lazy, to just push people and problems into nice easy compartments.
Life isn't that 'nice and easy' - hell, we're not that 'nice and easy' sometimes!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66803 - 05/28/05 01:38 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Dave,

You are so right. It is not easy.

Your words moved me to remember some poetic words of another man.

A famous man who is intimately familiar with the most horrible abuse had this to say.

Quote:
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Alexander Solzhenitsyn (1918 - ), The Gulag Archipelago
Thanks, all.

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#66804 - 05/28/05 06:26 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
((((((((((((Sammy))))))))))))

First off, I'm so very glad to see you back here, and so very sorry I haven't kept in contact with you. There's been some heavy s**t going on in my life, but that's not an excuse.

You raise some very difficult, challenging, and relevent concerns, not the least of which is: can men be victims of date rape?

Simple answer - yes. Anyone can. If the victim is forced, either by alcohol, threats, manipulation, or any other coercive method, then it is rape.

What constitutes "force" and coercion? Most of the time, this is pretty black-and-white. This is easy. But what if there's more ambiguity?

************TRIGGER WARNING!************

What if there was sexual activity, and one of the participants says to stop? If the other person continues, is this rape? Is it traumatic?

What if there's consent between people who are legally UNABLE to consent (namely, statutory rape)?

WHat if there's some form of psychiactric condition that impairs rational consent (i.e. disassociation/MPD)?

These are the hard questions, and I'm afraid there's no hard, fast answer to any of them. I know what my gut-level response is, but my view may be affected by my experiences. This was brought up to me recently when I discovered, thanks to an article on my favorite topic of scorn, pre-teen modelling websites, a site dedicated to "girllovers." I knew this sort of thing existed for men who "love" boys (i.e. NAMBLA), but this one took the cake by talking directly to young girls in language that was WAAAAAY to sophisticated for them and even using concepts (i.e. a "mutually agreeable covenent") that could be very seductive without taking into account how naive children are.

Not all children are unaware of sex. Indeed, most are, thanks to the media. But their awareness is countered by their basic impulsiveness and immaturity. And yet, there are some people who think it's possible for children to "willingly" engage in sexual activity with adults.

Is it so farfetched an idea? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's so far off the frigging scope of rationality there should be NO arguments about it. But people who are experts debate about it.

************END TRIGGER WARNING************


There can be a debate on ANY of these issues. My personal view of this is - if it has a negative impact on you and there was a question of coercion AT ALL, it was rape.

So, yes, men can be date-raped. And they can be date-raped by women.

The question remains, Sammy, and I have no view into the situation but yours and what you've spelled out here, though; was what happened to your husband date-rape with him as victim or the woman in question as victim?

I can't rightly say. I don't know what was in either of their heads. Only they do. I guess the hardest question is what you think. Was it mutual, was HE coerced, or was SHE?

I wish I had the answers. I'll help with any perspective you want, bu this is what you have to answer for yourself.

((((((((((((Sammy))))))))))))

Love,

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#66805 - 05/28/05 10:01 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SAR posted this -

Quote:
I don't care how old you are, you can only ever exercise the options that you know about-- and as teens, even as older teens, our knowledge of the options was very limited by our experiences. If I "knew" that other choices were out there, I thought of them as "out there" but impossibly separated from my life-- sort of how I "knew" how people lived in the past or I "knew" that I would weigh something else on another planet-- not relevant, not part of my daily decision making. In many ways I was easier to influence as a teen than I was as a young kid, because I was so willing to "act the part" of any label that I feared might fit me-- whether that label was one I wanted or not.
And it makes a lot of sense, there's a whole section of society that remain ignorant about sex and all it's other responsibilities.
That ignorance is due to many different influences ( or lack of them ! ) AND the wrong influences, from using sexually explicit talk in front of kids to actually abusing them.

All of these give the kid the wrong ideas about sex, but they seem to believe that they "know it all" ; then they end up in this situation, if they're girls, or in what a boy might think is a a gay 'relationship'

This story hit the news just this week, and it's appaling. Both from the serial ignorance passed from mother to daughters, and the fact that nobody seems to have been questioned about 'abuse'.
But these girls seem to have gone into a sexual relationship with their eyes wide open.


Quote:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050523/140/fjkcf.html

Tuesday May 24, 04:22 AM

Teen Mum Sisters Get 30k In Benefits

Three schoolgirl sisters all with babies have defended living rent-free in a council house on benefits worth more than 30,000 a year.Julie Atkins and daughters Natasha Williams, now 18, Jade Williams, 15, and Jemma Williams, 14, survive solely on benefits of 600 a week - an annual income of about 31,000.Mrs Atkins admitted her daughters had "ruined their lives", but blamed their situation on the school system.

The girls say the fathers of their babies have had no contact with their children and contributed nothing towards the upkeep.

Youngest daughter Jemma was the first to fall pregnant, at the age of 12, after having sex with her teenage boyfriend. She gave birth to son T-Jay in February last year.

Just weeks later Jade, then 14, and 16-year-old Natasha - who is in a secret relationship with the baby's 38-year-old Asian father - found they were pregnant.

Natasha had daughter Amani in November and Jade followed with Lita in December.

The two younger sisters are still at school and are the only young mothers in the playground. Jade sits four GCSEs this year and hopes to work in IT. Jemma takes her exams next year.

All four mothers live rent free in their three-bedroom Derby house and receive a combination of income support, tax credits and child benefit.

Double divorcee Mrs Atkins, 38, remains unrepentant about the family's situation. She told the Sunday Mercury: "I don't care what people say about me.

"I blame the schools - sex education for young girls should be better. They have all ruined their lives because they are far too young to have children."
Should the fathers be blamed? All I know is what I read in the press, but there seems to enough 'evidence' to prosecute some guys.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66806 - 05/31/05 02:15 AM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Hmm Dave

Quote:
they end up in this situation, if they're girls, or in what a boy might think is a a gay 'relationship'
Or if they're boys, they end up raising their kids too. There are some very good young fathers out there-- some stuck with the girl and some stuck with the kid when the girl did not.

Of course we should blame boys and men when they don't step up to the plate and act as fathers to their children-- but we need to be sure that boys and men are being praised and recognized when they do.

LIKE MY WONDERFUL BOYFRIEND \:\)

It is not always ignorance either. I don't think most adults are willing to believe how many teen parents took the risks with their eyes wide open. There are boys and girls out there who want to be parents very much (or think they do).

I'll also bet that just because those two girls are the only moms on the playground doesn't mean that they're the only girls on the playground who've been pregnant.


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#66807 - 05/31/05 10:30 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
hi guize,
sitting in hospital waiting til tommorrow for angioplasty #22 -- wish me luck,
So I pop on line to hide from ;the hideous Kratchett Nurses (teasin) - and I read Dave's article posting.... and as a Mommy I just cant say this loud enuff or strong enuff

*******CAUTION CUSSIN' DISCUSSIN'**********

AS a Parent it is MY responsibility to teach my children about sex and morals. That does not exclude my use of any materials written that I would find helpful, or people or doctors ;or family or friends or planned parenthood etc.l
Is. I would have probably thot that Dave's post was B.S. except i believe my sister (who doesnt know dave \:D )
When my Sis was in OBGYN study for nursing here she had a young 13 yo who was giving birth for the 1st time. "Grandma" was so proud of her as she was the 3rd or 5th daugh of hers who was giving birth as a young unwed mom... the ages the "other" daughs were when they gave her "grandchildrend?" - 15 - 17 and "grandmom" herself gave birth the 1st time at 17.
I dont give a crap how poor someone may be, there are endless bottomless pits of money available to help prevent unplanned teen pregnancy & STD's... who does Sammy lay the responsibility on in Dave's article? THAT GRANDMOM!!! If she knew if enough to spread her effing legs and what a period is/was then she had enough sense to be able to tell her daughters HOW babies got made... that article smelled of one effing thing to me ONLY!!
Too Fucking Lazy To GET an EDUCATION AND A JOB!
I live in an area of my city that is in some cases fairly labeled as....generational welfare.
No matter the helping hands out and up it pisses me off that this shit can stir the pot and make those who are really trying to break the cycle look bad thus making the entire population looking bad....
Sorry for the off topic rant, but maybe the meds are kicking my fat butt...
SCOT--- BIG GIANT HUGS AND THANK YOUS FOR ALL YOUR NEVER ENDING SUPPORT AND GOOD THOTS, feel free to write anytime I still have the same Addy,
May Peace Fill Us All,
Sammy


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#66808 - 05/31/05 11:23 PM Re: My hubby is a convicted sex offender
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
SAR
Quote:
It is not always ignorance either. I don't think most adults are willing to believe how many teen parents took the risks with their eyes wide open. There are boys and girls out there who want to be parents very much (or think they do).
This is true, a very small number do want a baby for ( what they believe ) is the right reason, but I think most get pregnant out of ignorance or for the money!
There's a big debate here, linked to the EU. Constitution and the French "NO" vote. In the UK it makes financial sense to be a single mother, unlike France and Germany. Guess which country has the highest number of under age single mothers?

Which is what Sammy is so indignant about, there's a culture that makes having babies at 12 acceptable, but at what cost?

One rarely mentioned aspect is that the same culture sends out a message to kids that sex is ok, both girls and boys see it happening without negative consequences and think "I'll have some of that !"
Which gives all the predators open season. Is the 38 yo man who's got the 15yo girl pregnant an abuser or pedophile?
His fate is all in the balance of that girl, if she say's she's been abused then he goes to jail, if she stands by him, he stays free.
I have no idea whatsoever of the situation other than what I read in the press, but that guy could be charged with abuse on nothing more than a whim.

Whatever the outcome of their relationship, and the fate of these three girls and their babies, the culture that makes young sex acceptable does NOBODY any favours, least of all to us as survivors.
Imagine that the 15yo girl is being abused, but lives in complete terror of the 38yo man and underpins his lies? Girl or boy, it makes being believed that much harder.
Maybe the girl seduced him? Possibly they're in love? What does someone living in an abusive situation 'see'? They see that although there's an outcry from the media, as expected, there has been NO MENTION of any action being taken against this older man, the 'genuine' victim doesn't see any hope.

I read that the 12yo's babys father is 14yo, that I can understand, and it's a different issue as well.
But the confusion of this growing culture isn't doing a damned thing to stop it happeneing. It certainly isn't reducing the ignorance that leads to babies.

It's why every society that I can think of has some moral code or age of consent that protects kids from the sexual and power abuse. It's worth fighting for as well.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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