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#66128 - 05/11/03 08:37 AM Picking fights? ...Long
teimosa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 33
Loc: LA
Here I am again. This has been a really hard week for me and for my BF both individually and together. I guess it'e becuase it's mother's day. This past September, my mother came to visit me from the east coast (ironically, she only lives about an hour from my BF...I haven't gone to see her since I have been going there to visit him). It was during that visit that I found myself confronting my mother about her physical and emotional abuse during my childhood. It went miserably. She called me a liar among other things, packed her things and attempted to leave, Since she didn't know her way around LA, i sucked it up got in the car and drove her back to the airport. That was the last time I spoke to her. I sent her a mother's day gift, but I don't intend to call her, becuase I am not in that place and I don't feel like dealing with her shit. I don't feel broken up about it, but it does bother me some,particularly as I watch the rest of the world preparing for this special day. I guess my BF has issues on mother's day too. He hasn't seen or spoken to his mother in about 8 years. The last time he saw her, it was pretty dramatic and very unpleasant. Prior to that he hadn't seen her since he was about 13 years old.

This morning my BF and I were talking. It was a normal and pleasant conversation. He asked me a hypothetical question about children, to which I answered to the best of my ability. He made it pretty clear that he felt that I wasn't giving an honest and well though out answer, so I attempted to better understand what he was asking me. Things escalted from that point. I could see that it was going toward argument mode. We had at least 2 really nasty arguements this week. I felt pretty drained and devoid of energy after that. I was pretty sappy at work and spent a lot of time worring about him and about us. I started to really diligently look for some therapy options for me out here and some possibilities for him on the east coast. My last post kinda went into that a little bit.

Since I didn't want to argue and I didn't know how to stop it from going there, I told him that I loved him and that I was going to go to sleep and speak with him tomorrow. It was pretty clear that he was angry, but I didn't see the conversation going anywhere productive, so I said good night and hung up the phone. He called me back, really upset that I "hung up on him" I tried to explain to him that I couldn't take another knock down drag out this week and I felt that these arguements did more harm than good. We talked some more, but he was pretty resloved to the idea that I didn't share my feelings with him and that I took this theraputic approach and tone with him (which he doesn't like) and detached myself trying to pry into his feelings about things. He kept making references to "not tonight" of all nights. I kept asking him what he meant, but he kept telling me that he was not "emotionally ready to have this conversation" which was pretty much his answer to everything that I asked him. He said that as long as I am going to be unrevealed in my position and unrevealing of my feelings, there was no need for him to express his feelings to me. I was pretty upset by this particularly since I shared some really intimate and painful things about myself this week. I felt that he was demeaning the things that I shared and discounted them becuase it was seemingly not deep enough.

Based upon that fact that he wasn't really talking to me and I felt that things could get heated, again, I chose to end the conversation. I told him that I would have the phone y my bed if he wanted to talk, but that I couldn't have this conversation anymore. I knew that he was really upset the last time that I hung up the phone, but I really didn't know what to do I wasn't trying to hurt his feelings or make him feel like I was abandoning him, but when I was telling him good night and that I loved him, he kept saying some antagonizing things like, "Yeah, you do you, ma" and "Just finish it." I really didn't want to engage in this interchange, so I told him again that I loved him and that I was going to bed and I hung up the phone.

A minute later he called me back, screaming at me "Fuck you! Fuck this! Nobody loves me the way that I need to be loved!" He said a couple of other things, but I don't remember what they were. I called him back over and over again until I became distraught. He won't answer the phone. THere's no one out where he lived that I could call on to check on him (he has not friends) and I didn't know what to do. I don't know what to do. It's damn near 4 am my time and I can't sleep. I keep trying to contact him and he won't answer. I am trying to see where I could have gone wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have ended the conversation the way that I did. MAybe I was not being sensitive enough to him possible mother's day issues.

Right now I feel really terrible, like not matter that I do, I am not doing the right thing.... \:\(

_________________________
Peace and Blessings...love and light

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#66129 - 05/11/03 01:50 PM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
teimosa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 33
Loc: LA
Here I am again, SOrry in advance for the ridiculous length of this thing....

I am really hurting and worried. I have tried to call my BF all night into this morning. Nothing. NO answer. No call back. When we were both back on the East Coast, we had a really bad fight one day. It was my birthday. I out with a friend of mine becuase I didn't have anything to do. At the time, my BF was not really my BF, we were in some kind of strange relationship without definition. After our girlfriend left us. We were both really devistated. We spent all of out time together. I was in particularly bad shape becuase I really loved her and was committed to her. He really made an effort to be there to listen to me. I felt really badly about the fact the she wouldn't let him back over the house. I knew that he felt abandoned by her so I tried to spend as much time with him as possible. I remeber sitting in my car for hours talking to him becuase I was having a hard time dealing with shit on my own and I was having a hard time leaving him alone.

Eventually, I had to move out of her apt and wne back to my own. He came with me (he didn't move in, but he was with me all the time). I remeber having converations with him, telling him that I thought that there were elements of our relationship that I identified as unhealthy. It didn't mean that I didn't love him. But I knew that we couldn't be in a relationship at that time....for so many reasons. At some point I wanted to go out and make other friends. It was not my purpose to go out to find someone else to "replace" him. But that's how he felt. I made a bad judgement call and got involved with a girl. I told him about it. He was really not happy about it. It wasn't anthing serious. But it still hurt him. I didn't realize how much at the time. He still spent a tremendous amount of time together, but he wasn's my BF...I was a lesbian. I couldn't face, at that time, the fact that I would have to change my identity, something that I had been very comfirtable with for many years, to be with him. Additionally there were so many complications in his own life that made it really impossible for us to be in a relationship.

Our relationship took a downward spriral over the course of a year or so. I was out making new friends, he wasn't. He really resented them. Im my mind, I wasn't trying to exclude him. I wanted him to meet my friends and hang out, but the fact was, we were a bunch of lesbians that rode motorcycles (he didn't know how to ride, and really had no desire to learn. At that time, I was not confident enough a rider to have him as my passenger...) There were a few times when I did take him out on my bike, but it was rare. He really resented those women becuase in his mind, they all wanted to F*** me and he felt that they were replacing me. In actuality, they did tell me that they thought that I was pretty, but I only dealt with one of them for a very short time. She really liked me, but thought it was strange that he had such a hold on me. If I was out with her and he called me, I would cut our date short to go home and be with him. That dating situation fizzled out pretty quickly. He was really angry and hurt about the fact that he felt that I had abandoned him. He was angry that I was trying to date women. Neither one of us wnated to recognize that we were in a relationship or sorts. He felt like his feelings didn't matter to me. I felt like I was trying to be his friend, but at the same time was trying not to be so isolated. I didn't have any other friends other than him and that bothered me.

Then the black day happened...That's what he calls it. The black day in my apt. One day he was over and fell asleep on the couch. While he was sleeping, I got a phone call. It was one of the girls that I rode with. I went into my bedroom to take the call, since that was were my phone was. We were having some casual conversation about some riding topic. At some point during that conversation, we woke up to find me on the phone in my bedroom. I didn't really think anything of it. I got off the phone a few minutes after I saw that he was awake, and I went out to the living room to see what he was up to. I found him sitting on the coach fully dressed (this is unusual for him, as he always felt more comfortable in the nude). I was kind of puzzled, but again I didn' think anything of it. I remember that I was playing with him, poking at him and such, but he was really unresponsive. Again, like a fool, I really didn't think anything of it. He got up to go to the bathroom and I followed him. I jumped up on his back (as I usually did, he would always give me piggy back rides...we often played really childish games). I remember that he stumbled and we fell into a wall. I was just about to say that I was sorry when he turned around, picked me up and threw me into a table. I was hurt and bruised (though in retrospect, I realized that he didn't throw me nearly as hard as he could have) but I was still hurt and startled. He gave me a really angry look, turned and left the room. I didn't know what to do. I got up and locked my bedroom door and laid down in my bed to try to gather myself. He came back and knocked on the door. I remeber it so clearly, he knocked really softly. I told him to go away. He knocked again and asked me to open the door. Again, I told him that I didn't want to talk. He knocked a third time. I got up out of the bed to go to open the door. Before I could get there, the door simply vanished. His leg, then is arm came through the door, followed by the rest of his body. I backed up and fell on the bed. He was screaming at me. I don't remember all of what he said, but it had something to do about me shutting him out or something like that. I was really scared and upset at that time becuase I had never seen him like that ever before. (later I would attribute this to the fact that we had decided to take a cycle of steriods to boost his muscular growth)

Things continued to escalate. I am kinda blurry on what happened after that. But when it was all said and done, I felt extremely violated. Had to call the police, but didn't want to press charges. I remeber how uncomfortable I felt when they asked me my relationship to him and I was completely at a loss at how to explain it, so I just said that he was my best friend.

Needless to say, things really became difficult becuase I was really hurt by him. I remember that this happened five days before our birthdays. (our birthdays are 1 day apart) I still saw him on my birthday and on his. I let him take me out to dinner and I brought him a birthday cake to the gym. But things were still really tense. I asked him to get some therapy. Later I was to find out that he went back to his last institutional placement to talk to a counselor, but he was not very well recieved. He had already been released for 4 years and they no longer had any obligation to provide mental health serivces to him. They didn't even give him a referral. He walked away feeling even more like a failure. I took him to a CODA meeting. We sat and talked to the person who headed the meeting privately for a long time. I remember sitting there, listening as he told the story. He cried and cried and cried. He said that he felt like he was trying to hold on to this person (me), but I was slipping through his fingers like sand. He felt like he couldn't breath and didn't know what to do. I remember just staring at the floor while he told the story and he finally confessed to the guy that the person he had hurt was actually me. We never went to another CODA meeting after that. Though I am really not sure why.

The rest of that summer continued to go very badly. As a result, I got very angry and frustrated and asked him to leave my apt. and to never speak to me again. I was tired and couldn't take it anymore. I felt angry and violated. I felt like I had tried to salvage the friendship, but didn't know how anymore. I just felt like I didn't want to see him or talk to him. Now, of course there is a flip side to this story. He also felt violated and hurt by me. He felt like I abandoned him. Like all the time that he spent with me when I needed him meant nothing to me. He opened himself up and shared alot of things with me. But I was not being sensitive to how my actions were really damaging him on the inside. He felt like nothing he said to me really mattered and all I was interested in was having it my way. Even if my way was punching holes in his soul.

As a result of me asking him to leave (he had no place to stay at the time). He wound up getting a room somewhere, but was not financially stable enough to pay for it. He ended up living with some girl who wound up becoming his girlfriend. I tried to rectify our situaiton, but my presence threatened the security that he found with this woman. THings continued to spiral for the next 9 months. His visits dwindled significantly. I found myself feeling really miserable between visits. WHen he would come over, we didn't really talk anymore. I didn't trust him and he didn't trust me. Often times he would tell me that he was coming over and he wouldn't show up, or he would call me just before me was supposed to come over and say that he coulnd't make it. I cried alot during that time. It really hurt becuase I loved him so much and just wanted things to get better. I was trying to get him help, but he couldn't accept it becuase he was not in that place.

Fast forward nine months. It was my birthday. I had made a friend who was really cool to me (I'll call him D). I didn't have anything to do and really didn't want to wait around to see if my "friend" would be able to call me and hang out. I remember that I was sitting over at D's house just playing some video games when my "friend" called me. I felt kind of resentful becuase my birthday was almost over by the time he called. I told him that I was out with a friend and that I would have to speak with him another time. We argued, but I said that I didn't want to argue with him and would talk to him the next day when we both had a chance to calm down.

I called him that next day, no answer. I called him for several days after that. Still no answer. I called again. The phone was disconected. Though I hated going over to him place unannounced becuase of the girl that he was living with, I came over becuase I wanted to make sure he was OK and so I could give him his birthday present. I got there only to find that he had packed everything and left the state. I woulnd't speak to him again for almost 2 years. I was able to track him down damn near 2,000 miles from NY. By this time I had left NY too (I couldn't take it living there anymore. His memories were plaguing me)

Fast forward to today. I am afraid that he will do this to me again. That this is it. That I will never hear from him again. That he will vanish and abandon me. I feel sick and twisted. I don't want to leave the house today and I feel powerless as to how to get in touch with him. He is 3,000 miles away and there is nothing that I can do. The fact that I have to wait and see if he will ever call me again is killing me. I don't know that to do. I feel guilty for getting off the phone with him. I feel like i made a really bad mistake. I should have been more patient and listened to him. Now I feel like i ruined everything. I feel terrible. I took on the responsibility to being there for him, and I made him feel likt I abandonded him. I just didn't want to fight. I just didn[t want to fight...that's all. We say thing that we really don't mean when we fight. I feel tired and lifeless when we fight. I keep feeling like i have to brace myself for another vanishing act on his part. This really makies me feel really bad. I guess I will just leave him another message.

_________________________
Peace and Blessings...love and light

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#66130 - 05/11/03 01:53 PM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
teimosa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 33
Loc: LA
There was a typo in my post...i said that we decided to do a cycle of steriods...that should have said he decided. I didn't encourage it...in fact i discouraged it. After that incident, he immediately stopped talking them though.

_________________________
Peace and Blessings...love and light

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#66131 - 05/11/03 06:36 PM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Teimosa

Quote:
I kept asking him what he meant, but he kept telling me that he was not "emotionally ready to have this conversation" which was pretty much his answer to everything that I asked him. He said that as long as I am going to be unrevealed in my position and unrevealing of my feelings, there was no need for him to express his feelings to me. I was pretty upset by this particularly since I shared some really intimate and painful things about myself this week. I felt that he was demeaning the things that I shared and discounted them becuase it was seemingly not deep enough.
Does this sound like you're trying to 'cure' each other ?

I know from my experience with my wife that talking deeply and emotionally is good for our relationship. But there are things better shared with a therapist, and best left out of a relationship.
And it's very tempting to slip into sharing too much detail thinking we're doing the right thing.

Therapy is somewhere we can bounce ideas around in safety and decide which has the best chance of achieving what we want.
If we don't do that then we end up thinking aloud to or partners, at least I do, and if the first idea we think of is a no hoper then a riot can break out before we've thought of idea number two.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#66132 - 05/12/03 10:25 AM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Lloydy's post seems pretty right-on I too have dated guys for whom I felt I had to be their "fixer" - the problem - I was such a good fixer and ignored myself and once they got fixed they didnt need me anymore and dumped me and I was left high and dry as I put all my energy into them and was left with nothing but myself - who was pretty run down and depressed.

From the sounds of what your BF was doing, it doesn't sound like getting off the phone was such a bad thing - I tend to think that drawing boundaries and limits are actually good for a relationship. Actually this happened to me last night (I was the one being rotten) and my BF said the exact same things to me as you said to your BF and then got off the phone. I felt like crap and abandoned for about 30 minutes and cried my eyes out then I called him back to apologize. Remember - you cannot control another's behaviour, but you can try to control how others treat you, and if they are treating you badly, standing up for yourself is not a bad thing.

FYI this brings up a phenomemon that often happens in difficult periods in relationships: often times right after the person for whom a boundary has been drawn tends to act out MORE for awhile, but many times they will come back to you (some don't but many do). What they are doing is getting you to back down from your boundary and get what they want, which is your total undivided attention and the right to be abusive and immature.

I once tried something with my father: - he is an alcoholic/depressive/drug addict with major personality problems and I once told him that I wouldnt put up wiht his crap anymore and wouldnt come to see him until he cleaned up his act and learned how to act like an adult. he just got WORSE and all moody and whiny and indulged in more substances and tried to egg me into more and more arguments (we have had regular arguments for years, many of which he was the antagonist) until he realized that his acting out wasn't getting him anywhere.

There's a good book on this called "the dance of anger" by Harriet Goldhor Lerner. It talks about change behaviour (changing your behaviour in order to enact a change in a relationship with someone) and the subsequent "change back" behaviour. It really has been a life-changing experience learning what's in that book.

I have to admit that I am a champion of that guilt-induced-phone-fights.. I often in current and past relationships have acted that way. I am currently undergoing hypnotherapy for this and it is really helping.

It sounds like your BF not answering or not being there may be his "Change back" behaviour. It is very very scary to be in your shoes at this time -I totally agree. A few times when I initiated my change behaviour my dad acted out to the point where he was driving impaired - I felt so awful and guilty but over time I realized that what he does is NOT my fault - it is his own hand that popped the pills and booze into his mouth. However, it is not fun to be in the situation you're in. Hang on... I've been there, I'm thinking about you and remember it won't be like this forever. Wishing you good vibes...

Soccer


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#66133 - 05/12/03 02:30 PM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
teimosa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 33
Loc: LA
Thanks for the insight....

I don't feel as crazed today, thank God! PAS, thanks so much for that book reference. I ordered it today and also ordered her book Dance of Intimacy as well. I think they will both be helpful. You know, one of the things that I pride myself on and really feel good about is my ability to maintain my composure. When I fall apart I feel like a little kid and a really hate that. As it turns out, the reason that my BF was not answering the phone is becuase at the same time I was calling him, he was calling me. We were both leaving pitiful and ridiculous messages on each other's voicemails. He left me at least 5 messages and I left him about just as many. It's so sad. We talked yesterday. It was another marathon conversation. One of the things that we discussed was the idea of loving with conditions. He seems to feel that I will not want to be with him if he doesn't go to therapy. He says that he is not opposed to the idea in and if itself, but he resents the idea that I will abandon him if he doesn't go. I know that I have made numerous mentions of going to therapy. I hope that he does go, becuase I think that it is such a necessary things for us to do, but it is not a condition of our relationship. I will be getting my therapy with or without him. I wish that he would at least start something out where he is, but I realize that I can't force him. I don't know how to feel about this. I am just looking for some effort here. He mentioned the idea of self reguation as a means to offset arguments and dischord, but my thing is if it were that easy, we would be employing that already. We discussed online therapy as a possiblity since we are on the opposite ends of the country and obviously can't sit in an office and do couple's couseling...any ideas?

Also on the topic of loving with conditions, I told him that I felt that a condition that I was subject to was sitting on the phone for umpteen hours talking. He even went so far as to ask me why I was rushing off the phone yesterday after we talked for over 8 hours....I got pretty upset becuase he asked me if I was trying to to rush off to call " one of my little friends". I took offense to this because I am working really hard to build and maintain friendships, something that has been an issue for me throughout my life. I felt that what he said was belittling and inconsiderate. I don't make it a point to throw me freindships in his face, but I don't intend to neglect them for him either. Fact of the matter is, when he starts acting a fool, I need people in my corner to help and support me. Anyway, I told him that I felt that if I wasn't glued to the phone with him for the majority of my day, that he would treat me as if I didn't love him and care about him (talk about conditions).

At the end of the conversation, I was exhausted and went straight to bed. I turned off my phone and just got some much needed sleep. He left me about 4 messages telling me all sorts of things (nothing hateful or negative, but very sad all the same....he really doesn't handle not speaking to me well at all....he even said that he would be content just bing on the phone listening to me breathe). I am worried about him and am not sure what to do about this. I know that I can't continue to live on the phone with him. He is schduled to come out here to visit next week and we are talking about him moving here in about 3 months.

Anyway, I know that I can't fex him, but I am trying my best to be here for him in anyway that I can. But sometimes I get so angry and frustrated with his actions and the things that he says to me. It makes me want to detach my emotions so that I don't feel so sensitive and raw. He says that he wants me to be naked and vulnerable in front of him (as his wishes to be with me) but the only thing is that sometimes he is not really sensitive with the things that he says and when it catched me off guard I get really upset.

Again. I appreciate the comments and the insights....

_________________________
Peace and Blessings...love and light

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#66134 - 05/15/03 02:08 AM Re: Picking fights? ...Long
serafina Offline
Member

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 36
Loc: Washington
PAS Thanks so much for your response. I look back on so many situations with my boyfriend and see exactly what you are saying. So many times when I held my ground it did get worse but then better. It sure was hard to hold my ground though and I tend to usually back down just like you send. Your post really opened up some things for me. Thanks!!!


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