Newest Members
JohnWC, KKumar, J44, Anura, reynel5
12420 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
MADcHATTER (54), Ready2MoveOn (44)
Who's Online
1 registered (traveler), 34 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12420 Members
74 Forums
63789 Topics
445460 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 7 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#65586 - 04/13/05 11:27 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
lots to think about here tonight, so I'll start with this

Quote:
One (of many) areas that have been difficult for us sexually has been his lack of comfort/willingness to communicate with me in bed. Because his abuser was always talking/describing/verbalizing what was going on for him (his abuser) when he was abusing Brant, having either of us say anything about what we're feeling,thinking, fantasizing about, or what we'd like at the time, etc, is a HUGE trigger for him. Basically, that door is CLOSED!
I can't remember EVER asking my wife or any previous girlfriends to 'do' something sexually, either to me or me to them. I just can't communicate when having sex.
I was also groomed to talk during my 4 years of abuse, I would ask them what they wanted to do, ask if I could do something. I ended up suggesting and asking that we tried different positions, asking for group sex. That's not normal for a child, and it's burned into my memory.

Quote:
Either way, we are being trained to learn to live with this also. I call it training because it really is so out of the ordninary when you dont understand it emotionally.
How sad is that statement? 'OUR' abuse reaches out an affects so many others.
Can a partner ever understand it? I haven't got a clue really, some understanding is certainly possible, but the feelings of rejection and the doubts and fears that must surround that are something that I can't understand fully.
'we' have to find a deeper level of communication to make the lack of understanding that we both feel meet up. Difficult, but worth the effort.

Quote:
One was an act of violence and control and the other love.
this is something that although I / we might understand it - logically - we somehow still fail to separate the two.

Quote:
Someone replied that it sounded to her as if a robust, healthy and vibrant sex life with my partner was really important to me (it is) and that, if so, I was doomed to never have that with my current partner due to his SA history.
Why admit defeat?


Quote:
...about the SWITCH, how do therapist/counselors work that angle?
Even though I'm working as a support counsellor and read and learn all I can, this is still a very illusive thing.
I guess it's one of those "aha" moments that depends on the individual, and their therapist.
If I find it, I'll be rich \:D

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65587 - 04/13/05 11:33 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
while looking for something else I came across a very long and very good article that I downloaded some time back.
All of it is worth reading, follow the link to do that, but I'll post a section of it here as it relates to this topic.

This section is quite long as well, but worth reading. The references can be found in the online article.
Dave.

Quote:
http://www.txdirect.net/~dmoore/personal/secret.htm

Telling The Secret: Channels of Communication for the Recovering Survivor of Child Sexual Abuse

A Literature Review

by Don Moore
mailto:dmoore@txdirect.net

COMMUNICATION, INTIMACY, AND SEXUAL ABUSE

Interdependence of Communication and Intimacy

Stewart (4) states that "interpersonal communication can happen between [people] when each of [them] makes available some of what makes [them] persons and when each is aware of some of what makes the other a person too." He defines intimacy as "a process in which [people] attempt to get close to [each other]; to explore similarities (and differences) in the ways [they] both think, feel, and behave" (Stewart 25). This "making available" and "exploration" require, at the very least, a nominal level of openness and vulnerability on the part of each person engaged in communication and striving for intimacy. The violation of both mind and body that survivors have been forced to endure consumes much of the psychic energy needed to establish personal togetherness and blocks many of the pathways that can lead them to sharing their lives with others. Intimacy requires self-awareness, responsibility for one's feelings, and vulnerability-all of which are very difficult for the . . . survivor (Blume 253).

The pathology of the survivor's interpersonal communication may be characterized by the projection of motives onto others (Engel 32) [implicit personality attribution (Stewart 145)]; a hypersensitivity to a breach of trust or forceful (seen as aggressive) behavior (Engel 11,15,60; Bass 36,191; Yudkin 247; Jehu 108-109; Ratican 34); self-doubt (Engel 25,45); avoidance of the exposure of "the secret" (Jehu 155); intensely self-denigrating, angry, and frightened internal monologue (Ratican 34; Engel 12,15,26; Yudkin 248; Jehu 107-108; Schultz 146; Bradshaw 48); the inability to ask for needs to be met (Bass 27,191; Engel 15; Yudkin 249; Ratican 35-36); and explosive anger (Goodwin 66; Ratican 34; Engel 15).

Affected Relationships

A shroud of betrayal and anger is cast over a boundless range of relationships as the result of direct or complicit involvement in sexual abuse. Survivors of child sexual abuse learn at an early stage in life to distance themselves from their emotions to avoid the pain of what is happening to them. This distancing results in a significant internal and external communicative isolation of survivors from themselves and others. Personalities dissociate, repress, even split in response to the violation of trust, shame, fear, and self-blame that are the daily internal reality for sexual abuse survivors. Self may become separated from the body, the emotions, the experience of childhood, even from other internal selves who are conceived of the trauma (Schetky 42-45; Engel 15; Yudkin 248). The bonds between self and other that may have existed or might have formed are severely damaged if not lost completely. These manifestations of and adaptations to the trauma of childhood sexual abuse often result in obtrusive personality characteristics that inhibit social interaction and self-disclosure, consequently seriously restricting communication and the formation of intimate relationships.

Numerous studies have found that survivors have significantly higher levels of difficulty forming and maintaining intimate relationships than their nonabused counterparts (Ratican 33). "Because [survivors] perceive the entire external world as dangerous and overwhelming, they do not have the autonomy to move toward new objects, and determinedly avoid significant relationships" (Schultz 148). The insidiousness of many sexually abusive behaviors, added to the already covert and repressed nature of the problem, compounds the difficulty of gauging its depth and readily identifying the dynamics of the interplay between the psychology of the abused and his or her style and level of success in the communication process and intimate relationships.

Survivors generally have difficulty trusting others (Engel 15; Bass 36; Yudkin 247; Engel 11; Jehu 108-109; Engel 60; Ratican 34; Bass 191), and they tend to be secretive and evasive (Engel 15; Jehu 107-108,137,155; Bass 108; Ratican 35; Schultz 148; Schetky 47) and to withhold information (Engel 15). In both casual and sustained relationships, survivors tend to remain distant and aloof (Engel 15). They feel isolated and different from others (Engel 15; Jehu 107-108,137; Schultz 148). Survivors find it difficult to give or receive affection (Engel 15), and, what appears to be contradictory, they often oversexualize, putting an emphasis on the physical aspect of relationships (Jehu 133; Blume 216-217).

Many survivors help others to the point of not taking care of themselves (Engel 15), and they have difficulty communicating their desires, thoughts, and feelings to others (Engel 15; Bass 27; Bass 191; Yudkin 249; Ratican 35-36). Despite the possibility that survivors may be selfless "helpers," at the same time, they may have difficulty being empathic (Engel 15).

Many survivors have difficulty with (Engel 15) and feel victimized by authority. This type of relational conflict, as well as many other factors, may induce anger/rage outbursts and/or mood swings (Engel 16) in a surviving sexual child abuse victim.

"Sexual abuse causes children [and, subsequently, adults] to feel like `damaged goods' (Urquiza and Capra 108). They feel dirty, evil, and rotten," (Engel 12) worthy of no one's love and deserving of and expecting rejection (Engel 11). The survivor's self-esteem and self-image are likely to be distorted, causing further damage to relational functioning. Many have reported feeling ugly, worthless, and stupid. They see themselves as failures, losers, and they constantly sabotage their success in all areas of life (Engel 15). A tendency towards self-blame, shame, and self-denigration (Engel 12,15; Jehu 107-108; Schultz 146; Bradswhaw 48; Ratican 34) often manifests itself in survivors repeatedly becoming involved with destructive, abusive people (Engel 15; Jehu 137). Repeated failures in relationships spawn a cycle in which victims turn their anger (deserved by the perpetrator) towards themselves (Engel 11), heaping more fuel on the fires of their self-defeating anger.

Affected Sexual Intimacy

Abuse survivors' potential for enjoyable sexuality is twisted when the perpetrator robs them of their innocence - "introducing them to adult sexuality before they are capable of coping with it" (Engel 11). As children, they are prone to eroticization, causing them to act inappropriately sexual with their peers and adults (Schetky 41-45). This may carry over into sexual promiscuity in adolescence and adulthood. Sex can become "compulsive as a self-destructive behavior, a means of releasing anger, or a bargaining chip to obtain attention, money, or security (Ratican 34-35). As reported by Engel (15), other sexual maladies of which survivors may suffer are lack of sexual desire and/or enjoyment; sexual dysfunction (anorgasmic, impotent, premature ejaculation); attraction to illicit sexual activities; anger/disgust at public affection, sexuality, nudity or partial nudity; the tendency to be sexually manipulative; and addiction to sexual activities (including pornography).

Keystone Inhibitors of Communications and Intimacy

Engel (60) states that sexual abuse is probably the most emotionally loaded inhibitor to communications and the surrounding atmosphere of trust and equality that must exist for intimacy to occur. Amid the psychological aberrations of the survivor's world are two key concepts whose mixture acts as a formidable barrier to successful interpersonal communication and, therefore, intimacy. These bywords for the unconscious dysfunction of the survivor of sexual abuse are trust and secrecy.

The Violation of Trust

The building blocks of intimacy-giving and receiving, trusting and being trustworthy-are learned in childhood. If [a child] was abused, [his/her] natural trust was skewed by adults who misused [his/her] innocence. [They] grew up with confusing messages about the relationship between sex and love, trust, and betrayal (Bass 36,191).

If the abuser was a member of the child's family, a boundary was crossed and a significant bond of trust was broken. Ellen Ziskind, a Brookline, Massachusetts psychotherapist states that, "Without basic trust, you can't have good relationships, you have no self-esteem." (in Yudkin 247). Some experts assert that sexual victimization by teachers, therapists, and doctors, as well as that by fathers, grandfathers, and uncles, involves the same disastrous betrayal of trust as if the abuser were a member of the family (Yudkin 247).

"Survivors have trouble trusting others appropriately and generally have a poor sense of personal boundaries. They may trust too readily, setting themselves up for further abuse, or they may fear intimacy, hold others at arm's length, and become controlling in relationships. They may use hostility to protect themselves from expected rejection by rejecting others first. Survivors may suffer from a conflict between craving intimacy and dependency but needing to control and manipulate to feel safe in relationships" (Ratican 34).


_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65588 - 04/14/05 09:34 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Peaceful Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 23
Well THAT was encouraging!!!

What a heap of issues. Does the rest of the article have some degree of hope?


Top
#65589 - 04/14/05 06:42 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Peaceful,

To me, the existence of the article is encouraging-- it means people are SEEING what's happening, validating the experiences and feelings of these survivors, even when those experiences paint a disturbing picture-- and it validates me, and my experiences with him-- I can reconcile and accept some of his difficulties, and support him with a greater understanding.

When my boyfriend disclosed, I was so shaken by his grief and vulnerability, and so worried about doing the wrong thing next, that I went looking for answers and found these articles that read like a personal history. I mean, even now my first thought on reading that excerpt is "Who's been looking in my windows?" After so long with no answers-- well the answers you get here aren't easy by any means, but they are what they are. They are tools-- and when you put a tool in my hand, then I have hope.

SAR


Top
#65590 - 04/14/05 07:26 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
beautiful disaster
Quote:
Personally when I have spoke to my husband about it- I try to get him to realize that the experience he HAD when he was a small child was not related to what adults have consentually.
Stride says many of the same things I have to say. You can only speak this with your actions-- no amount of talking to him is going to get him to realize it-- it's something you get or you don't.

For me and my boyfriend, the most effective thing I could do to send the message that my desire for him did not equal abuse was to make his boundaries my top priority-- to back off when and where he needed me to, to make sure that he got the non-sexual loving touch he needed (this was the hardest part for me), and to "close the door" on some of my own expectations for our intimate life-- sometimes our "wish list" is the elephant in the room if you know what I mean.

Of course it is a lot easier to accept that knowing that my boyfriend does at least recognize that intimacy is a real emotional/self-esteem issue for me rather than a purely physical one-- something he didn't realize before, and again, no amount of talking could get him to understand.

Also in communicating with him, I've realized how much of what I've always perceived as rejection/unwillingness he intends to come across as an act of caring-- in not wanting to disappoint or take advantage, he tends to go overboard withdrawing from me-- however well it's meant, no woman wants to hear "Hi honey, I'm home... and by the way, I don't want to be intimate with you later this evening."-- so we have talked about why he does that and what he could do instead.

If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about. None of the conversations my boyfriend and I have about sex would have been possible 18 months ago. As partners, we have to trust that things are changing and progressing all the time, just out of our sight.

SAR


Top
#65591 - 04/14/05 11:52 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Peaceful
I'm glad you read that, and maybe read the full article as well. Even if it doesn't paint a very pretty picture.
And although I suspect that your comment was a bit tongue in cheek, it does raise some interesting questions.

It's not all doom and gloom though, no matter how many dysfunctional things we can pick out of articles such as that, and as SAR says "Who's been looking in my windows?" we also see hope.

That's just how it felt when I started reading everything I could about CSA and the problems we experience as adults, I wondered how they knew so much about me?
But slowly I began to realise that when I did recognise my problems in these learned peoples writings that I was not alone, and that my problems actually had a cause.
If there's a cause, and then an effect, then there's generally a way to reverse the process, or stall the 'cause'.
Whatever way we look at it, finding valididity for the cause - my abuse and upbrining - led me to find ways of halting the cycle that I was locked into, the very rapid cycle of being triggered by the cause and trying vainly to smother the triggering memories by using some king of crude and ineffective coping mechanism.

That process has worked for most of my problems, I don't act out sexually any more, don't even think about it now. My flashbacks and panic attacks have subsided to a state where they are easy to overcome and control. My only remaining problem is being intimate with my wife, and the same process WILL work for that as well.
The reason I still have the problem is that I've only just began to address it seriously, up until now the other problems were more important to me. I had to prioritise them because there was no way I could do it all at once, which is the point SAR makes here.

Quote:
If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about.
Part of the process of getting back to the 'cause' is aquiring the knowledge of the psychological process that my mind has used to arrive at the dysfunctional way I am, I can't change my thought process' without knowing 'why'.

Sometimes the knowledge is difficult, for many reasons. Most of it is written by psychologists for other psychologists, so we have to search hard for accessible knowledge. That article isn't the easiest to read in that respect though.
Also 'we' read this stuff, recognise something, and think "no way, that's just crazy stuff and I'm NOT crazy". So we deny the truth of what we read or hear, and believe me I did a lot of that. I once spent a whole session arguing with my therapist when he told me I had PTSD. I went away angry, and determined to prove him wrong so I read everything I could find on PTSD. The next session I apologised to him, he was right. But I had to prove it to myself and overcome my denial, I learned a valuable lesson from that.

So "yes, there is a great deal of hope" in that article. By reading things like that we're proving that there is hope, we would pass all this knowledge by if there was no hope.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65592 - 04/15/05 10:11 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Peaceful Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/02/05
Posts: 23
Originally posted by Lloydy:
If any part of healing is truly a product of the journey itself, I believe it has to be this-- so many of the elements that make sexual intimacy possible are only picked up through healing-- without self-trust, self-esteem, communication skills, healthy boundaries, understanding emotions, etc., you can't even start to deal with any of the issues we're talking about. [/QUOTE]

My comment was a bit tongue and cheek. GLad you didn't read more into it!

I'm reading this tread perhaps from a different perspective. I have just begun dealing with my own issues of CSA after my oldest son molested my youngest son which is why I came to this site.

I have read many articles too when I say "this describes me!". After so many years of minimizing my SA experiencen and it's effects i.e. "it wasn't such a big deal since it happened only once", I finally had to admit that it was the cause of my problems with sexuality.

Surprisingly, at least for me, I've had more problems the last ten years. Somewhere along the way, things took a turn for the worse, and perhaps it's a cumulative effect. Perhaps it's more relationship issues, but the sexual intimacy issues were there early on.

Here's the link in case there are other female survivors out there on THE EFFECTS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE ONFEMALE SEXUALITY : A MODEL OFINTERVENTION.

http://www.aic.gov.au/conferences/rvc/marendaz.pdf

The de>

Top
#65593 - 04/16/05 12:18 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Peaceful
I must admit that I haven't looked deeply into CSA and its effects on adult women, I concentrate on male abuse.
But the little I have read about it shows many similarities, which I suppose is inevitable?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65594 - 09/09/05 02:40 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
beautifuldisaster Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: usa
Bump for the newbies....this is so helpful to so many!

_________________________
I AM THE MASTER OF MY DREAMS,
I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL-

Top
#65595 - 06/23/06 08:39 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
beautifuldisaster Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: usa
I havent been on here in quite awhile. My husband is in therapy...and even on the board now.

I just wanted to add something very amazing to this thread that may shed some light.
His T said it is very common to find a man suffering M/W syndrome will have a mother that was molested herself thus being a very 'hands-off' type parent due to her own abuse.
Just thought that was pretty significant and wanted to add it to this thread.

_________________________
I AM THE MASTER OF MY DREAMS,
I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL-

Top
Page 7 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.