Newest Members
myrlin, AaronS, BookHouseBoy, WeFallWeRise, kieran
12463 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Blakanezebruh (43), OneWithStrength (37), Parker (45), scottyg (42)
Who's Online
1 registered (Sonata1), 27 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12463 Members
74 Forums
63990 Topics
446621 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#65556 - 03/11/05 09:40 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
After posting in response to SARs mention of 'responsibility', it hit me that being responsibe for others is what 'mothers' do for their children (fathers, too).

So that really takes it back to the initial topic of the thread 'Mother/Whore Syndrome'.

The idea of having sex with one's mother or father is so disturbing to society that it remains one of the last great taboos--incest.

Even with that remaining social charge, there are still hundreds of web sites featuring incest as their theme; chatroooms; magazines, private clubs etc.

So when I want to act like a mother or father to the person I want to have sex with, that's something that disturbs me...eventually. At first, it seems like a good idea. Take care of them and hey, they'll take care of me, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

For me, I do not see any escape clause in the general rule that I must treat the adults in my life as adults. Not as children, because treating them as my children and then expecting them to have sex with me is a really powerful trigger for the entire population of the world.

The man who sexually abused me took me in, gave me shelter, food and emotional support; much like a parent. He also had sex with me. He was 55 when it started and I was 15.

The knowledge of the inverse relationship existent between love and power is one that is well known. I used to have the quote from Jung at the end of my signature.

In mother/child relationships the dialectic of power is natural and good, assuming that the parent is 'normal'.

But in adult sexual relationships that mother/child dynamic is just really sick. I know. I have lived with it for a long time. As I have said, I once was a victim. Then I became a volunteer.

I no longer wish to volunteer.

I remember how powerful the adult feelings were that I had to try to carry as a young adolescent.

Feeling sexual jealousy at the age of 15 because the man who was acting as my parent was out screwing some other young guy. Or so I suspected.

No wonder I kept having those 'nervous breakdowns'. Those emotions were not appropriate for a sexually immature young man to have.

In a parallel way, the caretaking and responsibility assuming of an adult sexual partner is very inappropriate, even though many adults may welcome such attention, and seem incapable of surviving without it.

I cannot speak for others. Perhaps they are stronger or more resourceful than me. But for me that type of relationship has been toxic. It killed me inside. Stunted my emotional and spiritual growth and has made it so that I must at the age of 50 learn all that stuff that I might have learned as a teenager had I not been sexually exploited.

In a way what happened to me was like incest. I had no father. My mother was killed the year after the molestation began. I had gone home to see her and brought the papers necessary for me to enroll at a junior college.

My mom was killed while I was there visiting. I had been having thoughts of returning to her home. I had been having second thoughts about life with my sexual partner of 56 (I had turned 16).

When we looked in my mom's purse after the car accident that killed her, the papers for me to go to junior college were in there. They had a small amount of her blood on them.

I took those papers back to Chicago with me. The man, Sam Jackson, who was sexually abusing me signed those papers.

Under his signature he wrote the latin phrase,

"In loco parentis". Translated, "In place of parents".

The day I got back to him after my mom's death, he comforted me, by having sex with me.

I say all of this for my sake. So that I will remember how it happened and how it felt. I lived alone with all of this for so many years. Only in my 40s was I able to speak the truth about it all.

So I am not one to set a timetable or deadline for anyone to begin or continue their recovery.
It took me as long as it took....not one moment sooner or later would I have been ready.

While I cannot be responsible for another's recovery, I can be responsible for staying out of the way. Acting as a mother or father while in a sexual relationship with a survivor of incest is a perfect recipe for a disastrous relationship.

I know, because I have been in so many of them.

I hope you will know that I am not sharing this to be mean or discouraging. This is just my experience.

I try to focus on the things I can change, i.e. myself. And leave the things I cannot change or control, i.e. other people, especially those I love, to the care of a loving power that I believe exists in this universe.

It ain't easy. If it was so goddamned easy we would have all been doing it and a long time ago.

But it is a way that I have found to live comfortably with myself. I live alone. I do not have a partner. And I believe that it is the way it is supposed to be for today.

Thanks all for reading this and allowing me this detour into my past. It helps me to refocus my attention.

I appreciate you all for your candor, honesty, patience and tolerance.

Regards,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

Top
#65557 - 03/13/05 12:47 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Before the Carpenters, there was Jung. Carl Jung.

Quote:
“Where loves rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. One is the shadow of the other.” Carl Jung


_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

Top
#65558 - 03/14/05 06:25 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Caetel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Paris, France
Just stopping to say I am in awe of this wonderful thread ! I have been away due to the cleansing effect of my first kundalini yoga session \:\( . Got overwhelmed by a tsunami of body memory. Horrible ! I am feeling better today. I have been away skiing this week end in the Alps \:D , I look great but could not walk much today ! ;\)
Love and hugs to all

_________________________
Mitakuye oyasin ! We are all related !

Top
#65559 - 03/14/05 10:47 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
I was talking this morning with my therapist about the 'parental' element that has always entered into/been present in my sexual relationships.

How I had been on both sides of the equation; seeking to take care of others so that they would do as I wanted (ie support me, keep me around, pay my rent etc) or trying to get others to take care of me (playing the incompetent child figure, the hurt, injured man needing support of all sorts and willing to have sex with you to get it).

These are just the barest sketches of what I do in relationships with adults in my life. Sex with other men is always the first thing I consider--how it will serve me and how I must serve them in order to get what I need.

Being aware of this type of dynamic is only a start for me. I have found that my awareness is not enough to prevent me from lapsing back into the 'I'll screw you if you'll pay my rent' syndrome.

I observed to R., my T, that it seemed that this type of relationship was widespread. That it seemed to work at some level for lots of people, but that for me, as a survivor of sexual abuse, it was not helpful and often destructive.

I went on to observe the incestuous overtones in the sexual abuse that happened to me at the hands of my older, male provider/authority figure. And how I tend to replicate that dynamic in my adult life.

I wanted to be reassure myself, I suppose, and others, that I did not consider this type of thing a 'moral failure' or some big lapse of humanity like a sin or other transgression.

But that for me and people like me, it simply did not work. The quid pro quo manner of conducting adult relations, particularly those of an intimate or sexual nature, just really messed me up.

In trying to NOT do the same thing over and over again, I find myself alone again and again. Evidently it is very hard for me to imagine doing things any differently than what I have learned and practiced over the years.

It seems easier to me to have quick anonymous sex that to develop an in depth friendship leading to intimacy.

I simply do not know what that type of adult relationship based on mutuality looks like.

He concurred that it did not work for me to be in those 'mother/whore' type of arrangements.

He went on to say something that I have retained, considered and wished to share in the context of this thread.

He said that acting in the unequal, parental/child, demi-incestuous, quid pro quo style of relational behavior did not work because it prevented me from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level.

Being prevented from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level, sounds to me like what I have often thought, that being sexually abused as I was, left me stuck in some more primitive stage of development. Like a child relating to a parent, but in a sexual way.

Sometimes the roles are reversed and I seek the other side of the coin, providing for and doing for other adults as a way of relating sexually.

And I and often the other have been unsatisfied and discontent in these relations, even though in the beginning they have seemed like just what I wanted.

They seem to soothe some superficial longing that I carry with me as a scar or patterning from my youth, but lack the depth and maturity to satisfy at a deeper level the adult, grown up needs and desires that I feel inside me.

Somehow I thought it was important enough for me to come here and write about.

It's not about being bad, or being sinful, or incompetent, or any of that stuff. For me the type of relating I learned in the abusive situation is what prevents me from finding the fulfilment I yearn for as an adult.

It is really hard to not do what I have always done. The alternative looks like a big unknown and that makes me very uneasy. Easier to go back to old habits, that, while disappointing, have the advantage of being known.

Guess that's why I come here and do the other work I do. In the hope of finding the courage and the strength to do differently and to be different.

Hope this makes some sense, it's all just come out in a rush.

Thanks,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

Top
#65560 - 03/15/05 01:12 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Danny

Quote:
It seems easier to me to have quick anonymous sex that to develop an in depth friendship leading to intimacy.

I simply do not know what that type of adult relationship based on mutuality looks like.
I can see how this affects survivors and their partners, the sex we learned - our 'sex ed'- was all wrong, it was the "quick anonymous sex" that you speak of; even if it carried on for a long period with a constant 'partner' ( abuser ) Much like mine did at school.

There are to the untrained eye elements of 'relationships', but I certainly discovered through some deep self searching in therapy that it was nothing like a 'relationship'
The truth was it was nothing more than basic lust on their part, it was just dressed up to appear like "true friendship"
The day my abusers left the school was the end of both the abuse, and my ill perceived friendship / relationship. I was cast aside with no further thought.

Everything I ever learned about sex I learned from my abusers, which when the truth dawned on me ( subconciously maybe, many years ago ? )was that "I was only good for "quick anonymous sex"
Which is why I can't relate sex to love and intimacy with a loving partner. I still see sex as an act all on it's own and totaly remote from my marriage. Perhaps I still see sex as something dirty and disgusting as well? Something for me and my therapist to discuss I think.

On a slightly broader note, I also think that the way people rush into sex, and seem to expect sex within a very few dates with a new partner, is not that far removed from our experience.
Again it instills the notion that sex isn't a part of the complete, loving, relationship.

For those of us that were teenagers at the end of the 60's and still young and single in the 70's sex was just about compulsory, relationships were secondary. Remember, at that time AIDS hadn't started, and we all believed that all STD's could be cured with a dose of antibiotics!

So not only did our abuse seperate us from the best reasons to have a sexual relationship, so did the climate we lived in.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65561 - 03/15/05 04:03 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
beautifuldisaster Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: usa
Hello Lloyd ....am I picking up that you basically look to your partner as the "security blanket" away from what is hurtful and dirty "sex", even though you may have never realized you were doing that. Yet, somehow in a vary strong manner trying to keep them as separate as possible?
You associate sex with someone who doesnt deserve your admiration and love....which is exactally what you want to give your wife.
This may sound silly....but do you indeed enjoy sex, or do you see it more as a release of some sort?

Thanks for being so open guys!

_________________________
I AM THE MASTER OF MY DREAMS,
I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL-

Top
#65562 - 03/15/05 08:18 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
This is great stuff Danny, and I believe it.
Quote:
acting in the unequal, parental/child, demi-incestuous, quid pro quo style of relational behavior did not work because it prevented me from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level.

Being prevented from fulfilling my needs at a deeper level, sounds to me like what I have often thought, that being sexually abused as I was, left me stuck in some more primitive stage of development. Like a child relating to a parent, but in a sexual way.

*snip*

And I and often the other have been unsatisfied and discontent in these relations, even though in the beginning they have seemed like just what I wanted.
I hope this is not too personal an observation, and maybe it is bit off-topic, but as a parent I find the de>

Top
#65563 - 03/15/05 01:25 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
This may sound silly....but do you indeed enjoy sex, or do you see it more as a release of some sort?
Now we're getting down to the difficult questions!

Do I enjoy sex?
I have done. And here I am talking about straight sex with my wife, and some previous girlfriends although it's so long ago my memory has probably raised my status from boyfriend to superstud. \:o
Yes, sex has been good, indeed wondeful at times. But as I grew older and the widely recognised problem of getting used to your partner crept in the enjoyment of sex diminished.

Instead of doing the right thing and spicing up our sex life mutually I used fantasy on my own.
Tat backfired, big time. My fantasy became based upon my abuse, and the need to re-create it. There are other issues surrounding our 'need' to re-create our abuse but I'll stick with this one for now.
To a certain degree the fantasy helped, but inextricably linked to fantasy is guilt and shame.
When I was using fantasy I would suddenly be overcome by the guilt and shame to the extent that I went soft and sex was over.
It was classic "Catch 22", the fantasy got me erect, the guilt and shame took it away.

More fantasy, stronger fantasy - you know what comes next....

Do I enjoy the prospect of sex?
I have the capability to wind myself up over days on end with the prospect of "the ultimate sexual experience". It's something I don't do now, but I recognise the signs so it's still there lurking.
But when I was acting out this was a huge part of my life.
The thought of this 'ultimate sex act' that I would be doing with some unknown person at some stinking toilet in a few days time ( because I knew I'd be in a certain place at that time )was huge, I was out of control on adreniline by the time I got there.
The 'best' that happened? A 2 minute, fumbled BJ, the worst, a fight with some other guy or solo masturbation. There isn't any "ultimate sexual experience" - not that we can plan anyway. Have you ever seen the movie about Annabel Chong, the woman who set a record of having sex with 251 men in 10 hours ? It's a good movie, not sexual and certainly not erotic. Just very sad.
What the whole premise of this 'Worlds gang-bang record' is based on is the same thing, the perception of this 'ultimate sex act'. The reality never matches expectations.

Also, many survivors had our expectations set when we were too young to process them correctly.
What I did when I was 11 to 15 years old was set in the world of pornographic fantasy, although I didn't know that of course.
I "enjoyed" giving BJ's to a line of older boys when I was about 12yo, I actually suggested it.
I "enjoyed" the fantasy / memory of that afternoon for over 30 years, it's going to take some shifting now.

So my world of sex is rooted in all these different influences spread over 40 years, and more actually. I generally only talk about my abuse at school, but I can remember a stranger putting my hand inside his trousers when I was about 3 or 4yo.
One of the things I've discussed at great length in therapy is the issue of sexual orientation. I can't deny that gay sex acts appeal to me, but I'm not not gay in the sense that I fancy other men, I don't. I fancy women and love one dearly. I look at the gorgeous women on the streets and feel sexual, I think about my wife in sexual ways. But contact is another thing.

Touch just reminds me of what happened as a boy, and I either process that as a fantasy, or as a flashback. The result's the same anyway.

I'm sure a lot of this is also tied into the dynamics of the relationship as well, the 'power' thing we touched on earlier.
It's an incredibly complex problem for us, and one that isn't easily fixed by just going though the motions, because not only does our body rebel, our heads do as well.

That's why, sadly, masturbation is safer.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
#65564 - 03/16/05 10:09 PM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
stride

For me the questions of interest/fear came back to power.

I can give you a long list of the reasons I didn't leave when things got bad-- some of those reasons I'm proud of, some I'm not.

But the bottom line is, I would have left if I'd ever felt powerless or out of control-- I was miserable, unable to change things, unfulfilled, sure-- but I knew that as scared as I'd be to go it alone, I'd be better at it than him-- and that kept him from leaving me. I knew that I was the responsible parent (I mean actual parent to the actual kids), the responsible bill-payer, the one who got things done, the one who knew how to say things, and that for those reasons it would cost him more than he was willing to pay for him to leave me entirely. His lack of power was my safety net.

NO WONDER that was a miserable relationship! No wonder that doesn't end up being satisfying for anyone! How could I ever trust in his love when my whole understanding of the relationship was based on him being with me out of something other than love? And no wonder that my first and biggest fear after he started healing was that he would "heal past" me and move on to healthier things!

And no, I don't believe there was any hope for THAT relationship. Luckily the one we have today is very different.

With every minute that I thought about the amount of power I had in our mutual lives, the more it made me sick, honestly. I didn't want it. I wanted the day to come when he could get up and walk away without looking back, and be just fine. Not that I wanted him to leave-- but I wanted to know he was choosing to be a whole, independent person, and THEN choosing me.

Obviously that's very scary. But I was being realistic too, whether he was going to heal in three months (the way I wanted) or three decades (the way he seemed to be headed), things had started changing. And however slowly they changed, at some point he would be able to choose healthy relationships for himself and I wanted our relationship to be an option.

My boyfriend very much resented--even fought-- some of the responsibility I let go. Any expenses or problems that I could give to him without hurting myself or our kids, I did-- that meant he was on his own paying for his loans/personal stuff, getting back his license, etc. I bit my tongue-- hard-- about his bad eating/sleeping/personal habits. In fact I looked the other way so hard in this area, that when he started making these changes I was slow to notice. He was quietly resentful about my NOT pushing him into therapy, and only much later admitted both that he had wanted me to do it for him and that he was now grateful that I hadn't.

It's not about how we use or don't use the control we have-- it's just the fact of our having it. You can't hold on to the control and just decide to be more benevolent or trusting in your application of it. That's how it was for me anyway.

SAR


Top
#65565 - 03/17/05 01:18 AM Re: Madonna-Whore Syndrome? **TRIGGERS**
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Quote:
In fact I looked the other way so hard in this area, that when he started making these changes I was slow to notice. He was quietly resentful about my NOT pushing him into therapy, and only much later admitted both that he had wanted me to do it for him and that he was now grateful that I hadn't.
Oh yes, "quietly resentful" - I remember that one.
I had, how can I describe this? 'created' or should that be 'become' someone who was reliant on others, mainly my wife, but I had jobs where someone else always had the responsibility as well.
That's a very comfortable position to be in. And I now know that I exploited that persona totaly.
I didn't just exploit it, I cultivated it and revelled in it.
How hard was that to escape from? very hard. Because even when I was getting therapy and making changes to my life I was still seen by all my 'mates' as "Lloydy, so f*****g laid back he's horizontal"
People started talking about me when I cut my rock-star hair, trimmed the beard ( I looked like a ZZ Top refugee for so long :rolleyes: ) and started to 'behave'. I drove legal cars, didn't do drugs anymore. I even went to college! My reputation was in tatters!

That's how hard it is to change, the whole range of ( probably )dysfunctional behaviours that our abuse caused are reflected in the 'personality' we have taken on. We've lived like this for many years, we know it, we trust it. We might not like it, but I bet we have convinced ourselves we do.

That's why I think so many people in relationships with a Survivor that's healing feel this way -

Quote:
And no, I don't believe there was any hope for THAT relationship. Luckily the one we have today is very different.
I think many of change so much that we're different people. Certainly some people who I know well, cousins and friends who live and work away, have often commented ( usually to my wife ) that they can't believe the way I've changed, not just my appearance either.
I can recognise many changes myself, hopefully for the better. But people who last saw me in the mid 90's do notice big changes.

Luckily my wife kept pace. ;\) \:D

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

Top
Page 4 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.