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#64820 - 03/03/03 06:40 PM 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
I answered the questions of a concerned family member in a private message regarding female sexual abuse of a younger male. I have decided to post it. I hope it helps. Her questions are bold

What is your relationship like with your sister now?
I have only email and occasional contact with my sister. I live on the other side of the country from them, and while I am civil (send presents, cards, etc.), and have never 'confronted' her, I have no real interest in being in closer contact at this time.

What is your wife's relationship like with her?
My wife also has little to no relationship with her, but she is angry and, I think, hates her for what she did to me, and by extension, what my sister did to her relationship with me.

Did you ever believe that you were responsible for it?
This one could take up a whole page. Yes, I thought I was an equal partner in it. In fact, when she ended it, I didn't want to stop. This is part of the manipulation of abuse. Whether from guilt or so that they don't feel as responsible themselves, perpetrators weave the experience so the victim feels responsible. This is particularly insidious in the adolescent girl on prepubescent boy abuse. Society just doesn't view early sexualization of boys by girls as any real problem. Just imagine, for a moment, that a 16-year-old boy had sex with an eight-year-old girl. is there any way it would be perceived the way 'our' abuse is?

This is also part of what makes it so hard for the victim to realize that he has been abused himself.

How did you come to the realization that you were the victim?
Even yesterday, as I wrote to you, I had difficulty expressing how this whole process has been for me. I hear the voices of society, "Well, how did you SUDDENLY realize it was abuse? if it is abuse, you would know right away." and "Every boy should be introduced to sex with a beautiful young girl."

I realized the effect in retrospect, and after years of therapy. I noticed a lot of things: never stayed with a woman for more than a year; I craved outside attention; I never felt that I was getting what I deserved out of life. These were issues tied in with the abuse, but they are not so obvious that one could say they were direct effects. But I had a secret, a shameful hidden secret I couldn't share with anyone. I was an exhibitionist. I showed my naked picture to women, played sex games with women on the internet, saw prostitutes, went to strip clubs for solace, at 12, I ran naked past the secretary of my church! Ten years ago, I was arrested for flashing a woman while I was driving. But still I didn't see what was going on. The same shame I felt about what had happened with my sister, and the incredibly deep feeling of rejection I had because she STOPPED (that is ironic, huh?) was replaying over and over, as I tried to get women to respond, immediately and sexually. But it was also set up to fail.

My bf and I completely disagree right now on whether a 16-year-old girl ought to know better.
This is a sticky point. Can a minor child be this 'horrible' abuser? My only answer is that an ordinary eight-year-old doesn't know about sex, has no hormonal impulses driving him or her to sex, and will only react sexually if 'primed' to do it. Kids just don't learn this stuff until their bodies tell them to!!

Leave off whether she should have known better. He won't be able to be objective at all about that. Again, if he is like me, his sister was his first romantic physical love experience. She opened up a realm of physical feelings he didn't even know existed. She is the idealized lover for him.

HE LEARNED SEXUALITY INCORRECTLY. From her. And whether she was malicious or not doesn't matter. The person who hits you with the car may not have done it on purpose, but you still got hit. An eight year old, hell, an ordinary 11 year old just doesn't have the plumbing yet!!

Just go back to the 16-year-old boy and the eight year old girl, if that helps to get the picture. And don't give me the boys are different from girls bullshit. A child introduced to sex before they have the hormones and proper body parts is a child, no matter the gender. He or she has no sex. He or she shouldn't have sexuality.

She is now 41, divorced after cheating on her husband, and is a blatantly sexual person, as though she's proud of it.
I hope you can let go of some of the vitriol you feel for her. Realize that she, too, probably learned the overt sexuality at an earlier age, from someone else, and pity her that she has not yet been able to deal with it. Try to get off the subject of the sister and onto the subject of your lover. You are really angry that she demolished the sexuality of your boyfriend. Too late to go back and change that, but not to late to start the process of recovery.

I make this sound simple...it ain't. My sister has had five children by three different fathers, the last baby at age 47 and out of wedlock. Her oldest is a drug user and in trouble with the law. I want to wring her fucking neck at the idea that she might have done something to her boys. But that is externalizing my struggle. Do you see?

It is easier to look at someone else's troubles than to look at my own. But we all need to shine the light on our OWN darkness. You included. This is triggering something in you, too. What is it? Look inside yourself.

What do you think the most beneficial approach would be when he & I discuss it?
Do you bring it up? Or does he? if he is not bringing it up, I would steer somewhat clear of it. If you can, express UNCONDITIONAL acceptance of him. You see, he feels unlovable, deep down inside; he is convinced that if you learn who he 'really' is, you will hate him and leave. He may even try, unconsciously, to get out of the relationship himself in order not to feel that pain. You are reminding him, every time you bring it up, that he did something horrible and wrong and shameful.

I think I'm so scared that he may never blame her
Sorry to criticize so much here at the end, but he doesn't have to blame her right now, he has to realize the effect the abuse has had on him. Blame might come later, if at all.

That said, I firmly believe there cannot be a 'big happy family.' I do think you can say you do not care to get together with her alone. Or maybe be a little subtle and just not be available when they are getting together. Perhaps he will get the picture.

He is trying to relive the relationship with his sister. he is trying to not to be alienated from her because he is in love with her. There, I said, it - I am sorry to put it so strongly, but that is probably true.

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#64821 - 03/03/03 07:29 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
What did you mean about trying to relive the relationship because he's still in love with her? Maybe it was out of context here, but I didn't see anything else in the post that alluded to that.

Sandy


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#64822 - 03/03/03 08:46 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
It may well be out of context...

These were specific answers to specific questions asked to me by another family member.

In their case, the abused boy (now a man) was still seeking approval from his sister. This is a form of reliving the abuse, in my view.

I hope that explains a little further.

This kind of abuse is so difficult to understand, I think, because it is non-violent, and occurs among opposite sex members of the same family who are under 18.

Society at large, and even well-meaning others simply have a hard time to understand the insidiously manipulative nature of this kind of betrayal of trust.

I will answer whatever I can for you, if you wish to ask me any questions.

James

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#64823 - 03/03/03 11:46 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Cement and Sandy,
Of course you knew I would post on this too. Cement, your analysis here is great. And I'm very thankful that we were able to come together here on this website.

I couldn't help but notice the miscommunications between the two of you. So I'd like to add my two cents and perhaps clear this up. However I do not want to make any false assumptions or imply anything that may be untrue but if I do then I am very sorry. That is directed towards you, Cement.

Cement:
Quote:
He is trying to relive the relationship with his sister. he is trying to not to be alienated from her because he is in love with her.
Sandy:
Quote:
What did you mean about trying to relive the relationship because he's still in love with her?
Perhaps love isn't the best word. Is lust any better? I just know that I've been trying to recreate those feelings for 20 years. And I know that I can only recreate those feelings because I cannot possibly have what I really want. Consciously I know that it is wrong for me to lust for her but there is an overriding sense that what I experienced all those years ago will be the pinnacle of any sexual encounter I may have.

It's like a loop of a video tape that just plays over and over. There's just no escaping those thoughts and for the most part I never wanted an escape. It was ecstasy. However it's only recently that I've wanted to hit the stop button because my life is far from where is should be.
Quote:
Again, if he is like me, his sister was his first romantic physical love experience. She opened up a realm of physical feelings he didn't even know existed. She is the idealized lover for him.
Ecstasy, pure ecstasy...

I hope that helps because this applies to me. And, Sandy, I don't want to scare you but maybe your husband too.
Take care,
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#64824 - 03/04/03 08:17 AM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
Okay, so maybe my husband is the lucky one here. He says he stopped it after two encounters because it was unfulfilling and empty, and it made him feel very badly. From what I understand, she wasn't a very "active participant" in the act. It seems that she led him on and then just let him go to her, then acted like it never happened. His contact with her has been maybe 2-3 times a year at various family gatherings, and when I had the baby, she popped by the hospital to see her. Neither of them call each other, and on the rare occasion that she has a bug up her butt about someone else in the family, and needs to stir up trouble she calls to try to get me to entertain her gossip. That too, is a rare occurance, maybe once a year. So am I in denial here? Do I just not understand?

Quote:
If you can, express UNCONDITIONAL acceptance of him. You see, he feels unlovable, deep down inside; he is convinced that if you learn who he 'really' is, you will hate him and leave. He may even try, unconsciously, to get out of the relationship himself in order not to feel that pain.
How is one to express unconditional acceptance of a man that is in love (or lust for that matter) with someone else? This whole thing has forced me to examine the misuse of my own sexuality. I started VERY young and can honestly say that I don't love or lust after any of my previous partners. I can also understand the empty feeling of an encounter as I felt the same way about it. I remember the very night I lost my virginity and I was lying in bed thinking...all this hype for nothing...sex is really over rated.

Can one say it makes the difference depending on who broke it off? Do you think it makes a difference at all?

Realize, I'm not trying to invalidate or offend, I just want to understand.

Sandy


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#64825 - 03/05/03 09:34 AM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
SandyW Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/03
Posts: 86
Loc: NJ
I gave this more thought...

Quote:
In their case, the abused boy (now a man) was still seeking approval from his sister. This is a form of reliving the abuse, in my view.

I hope that explains a little further.

This kind of abuse is so difficult to understand, I think, because it is non-violent, and occurs among opposite sex members of the same family who are under 18.

Society at large, and even well-meaning others simply have a hard time to understand the insidiously manipulative nature of this kind of betrayal of trust.
I see what you mean about the continued victimization as I see it now in retrospect with my husband. She uses the "secret" to excercise control over him and to manipulate him just for fun. I though you meant that he was seeking to relive it. See, now that the secret is out in our family, my husband is no longer obligated to pacify her or avoid her tantrums. I can totally understand the manupulation and betrayal.

Quote:
If you can, express UNCONDITIONAL acceptance of him. You see, he feels unlovable, deep down inside; he is convinced that if you learn who he 'really' is, you will hate him and leave. He may even try, unconsciously, to get out of the relationship himself in order not to feel that pain.
You are so right about this, but if he is still "lusting" or "loving" his sister then by default, I am unlovable . I don't think this is the case here as he's really opened up since this came out and its been a turning point in our lives (for the better).


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#64826 - 03/05/03 12:46 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
James,

This is so powerful & has so much in common with my own life that I want to make a few comments, and begin by saying that the questions, your answers, and the ensuing discussion thus far has been very helpful. Thanks, to all...

Quote:

What is your relationship like with your sister now?
I have only email and occasional contact with my sister. I live on the other side of the country from them, and while I am civil (send presents, cards, etc.), and have never 'confronted' her, I have no real interest in being in closer contact at this time.
In my case the abuser was not an older sister but my mother, so different in the sense she was an adult and I a child. Still a lot applies for me.

I broke all contact with my mother when my abuse memories came back about 20 months ago. She & my wife continued to send occassional holiday gifts & cards back & forth, mainly for our two girls. But they want nothing to do with her anymore, and I have written here a note just recently asking that she not contact us in any way anymore until further notice from me if ever.

She also lives on the other side of the country, which suits me fine.

Quote:
What is your wife's relationship like with her?
My wife also has little to no relationship with her, but she is angry and, I think, hates her for what she did to me, and by extension, what my sister did to her relationship with me.
Ditto for my wife, and my two grown daughters.

Quote:
Did you ever believe that you were responsible for it?
...Society just doesn't view early sexualization of boys by girls as any real problem. Just imagine, for a moment, that a 16-year-old boy had sex with an eight-year-old girl. is there any way it would be perceived the way 'our' abuse is?

This is also part of what makes it so hard for the victim to realize that he has been abused himself.
Tho probably to a somewhat lesser degree, this is still true of mother-son incest. However, take a 20 to 30 year old father incesting a 2 to 10 year old daughter, and what you get is "burn the bastard, hang his flaming carcass, and throw stones at it until it disintegrates into ashes--which should promptly be buried deep in the ground."

A bit different from the mother-son incests thots
which often range from "that lucky dog" to "that was just her way of loving & nurturing him" to
"it really couldn't have been so wrong/that bad."

I beg to differ!

Did I ever feel responsible?

Growing up I blocked out these incidents so quickly when they happened. When I remembered over a year & a half ago, I did struggle some with part of me "enjoyed it" so maybe it wasn't wrong, or I was a male she was a female and if I didn't like it why didn't I just stop her?


Quote:
How did you come to the realization that you were the victim?

...I realized the effect in retrospect, and after years of therapy. I noticed a lot of things: never stayed with a woman for more than a year; I craved outside attention; I never felt that I was getting what I deserved out of life. These were issues tied in with the abuse, but they are not so obvious that one could say they were direct effects. But I had a secret, a shameful hidden secret I couldn't share with anyone...
These are the very kinds of things that happened with me. My secret hidden shame has been my s*xual addiction to FPM (Fantasy, P*rn & M*st*rb*t**n). That my wife and I have been together over 23 years, over 21 before I even realized I had been sexually abused, is in itself a miracle. One I'm very grateful for.

Quote:
My bf and I completely disagree right now on whether a 16-year-old girl ought to know better.
Pretty much agree with all James said so won't quote it all here.

Obviously my mother, as an adult, no matter how dysfunctional she was & her own family (parents) had been, should have known better.

Still I'd like to address this in the context of the 16 year old girl and the 8 year old boy.

Those were about the ages when I was sexually abused by a "babysitter."

Do I think she should have known better?

Yes I definitely do.

This girl was almost twice my age. She was well into her adolescence & budding sexuality, while I was not, in spite of the "sexual training" I'd already had. In most cultures & nations of the world, this girl would have been considered an adult, while of course I would not be at 8 or 9.
Most girls worldwide are married or expected to be getting married by age 16--not 8 or 9, whether male or female.

Quote:
She is now 41, divorced after cheating on her husband, and is a blatantly sexual person, as though she's proud of it.
I hope you can let go of some of the vitriol you feel for her. Realize that she, too, probably learned the overt sexuality at an earlier age, from someone else, and pity her that she has not yet been able to deal with it...

It is easier to look at someone else's troubles than to look at my own. But we all need to shine the light on our OWN darkness. You included. This is triggering something in you, too. What is it? Look inside yourself.
My mother is in her 60's, twice married & divorced, had two children out of wedlock when I was in my teens, one of whom she aborted, had several live-in boyfriends and too many sexual encounters to even think about the concept of "cheating on" someone. She has always been very openly sexual & very proud of it.

Yes my mother grew up in a highly dysfunctional family, and possibly was was sexually abused.

Finally the anger with her is starting to ease up or at least be properly channeled, and I'm becoming able to pity her in that she doesn't even think anything is wrong with her or that she did anything wrong to me, or to anybody. She is a classic narcissist.

Nevertheless the fact remains that I suffered intense abuse of many kinds by many people and I raised my kids without abusing them. She could have done the same. Not doing so was her choice & her fault. Period.

Having said that, I also know that if I am abusive to someone in some way, if I act out or numb out & do unhealthy things to myself, I can't blame my mother. It's my fault. Period. So I must see how the way she raised me has affected me, and keep doing the things that will help me overcome those effects, be a survivor & a thriver.

Thanks for a very thot-provoking thread, people.

TC & TTYL

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#64827 - 03/05/03 09:05 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Cement, and everyone else involved in this post,

I was not abused by a family member, and I dont have a sister, so I can't imagine the dynamics of what is going on for you all, but I do know that Cements post was one of the most powerful things I have ever read here or anywhere.

Sometimes I'm stunned by what we can do in the face of what we've experienced.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#64828 - 03/07/03 03:30 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
Cement Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 740
Loc: Southern California
I am sorry it took me a while to answer, Sandy (I hope you are even looking at this post anymore).

if he is still "lusting" or "loving" his sister then by default, I am unlovable.

I want to take a minute on this if it is ok.

You are not unlovable if your hubby has love or lust for anyone else (or, as in my case, the idea and feeling I had long ago), especially if you recognize that the attraction he may feel is not 'real' love.

My definitions and feelings of love, attraction and sex are skewed from 'normal.' Again, this area is confusing, even now, because these skewed emotions were taught to me by an attractive member of the opposite sex with whom I already had a love relationship. I learned shame and secrecy right along with it. I learned that sex FEELS GOOD, whether it is between consenting adults or underage family members. I learned all of this before I was physically ready and well before I could have any emotional distance from it. I never told anyone, out of shame and feelings of responsibility. So the experience became my sexuality.

These feelings (which I, perhaps inappropriately, called love or lust) are almost hard-wired into my brain. Had I a 'normal' sexual upbringing, my feelings would have grown naturally.

But I didn't, and they didn't and there they are, like a tree that has bent to grow around a rock or a wall in its path. I might be able to remove the rock, but I cannot go back and change the way the tree grew.

I can help it, though, to stay strong growing in a healthier direction.

I don't think this is the case here

As you say, this might not be specifically the case for you, especially because your husband wss the one to stop it. It is really great that he was able to do that.

Even if he is in a similar situation as I am, he is still able to love you in a way that is stronger and deeper than anything else. I know this is true.

For me, the lingering effects of love and lust as taught by abuse are the very tricky parts for my wife and for me. I always hope she can understand that some of the lust 'artifacts' I feel do not affect my love for her or my attraction to her.

That is all for now. I hope it is of some help.

James

_________________________
And let the darkness fear our light.

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#64829 - 03/07/03 04:15 PM Re: 1256 words about sister on brother abuse *trigger?*
MrEdd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 316
Loc: Texas
Quote:
But I didn't, and they didn't and there they are, like a tree that has bent to grow around a rock or a wall in its path. I might be able to remove the rock, but I cannot go back and change the way the tree grew.
That analogy applies to all of our sexual lives here so well.

You have a way with words Cement.

Edwin

_________________________
Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

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