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#6452 - 06/20/05 07:19 AM Wanting understanding
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
When I first found out about this board I was at the very beginning of my recovery. My whole life I have searched for people who understand and who could give a listening ear to what I had to say about what had happened to me by the hands of my brother. When I was nine I told someone but then saw my brother getting hurt so I told them that I lied then the whole thing was forgotten along with me. At 12 I told someone and they changed the subject. At thirteen I told someone and once again they changed the subject. At fifteen I told someone and they talked a little about it but wanted to talked about other things. It was not untill I was 23 that I finally found someone to listen and really understand. I found out about this board from him and was so exsited that I finally had a place to go and talk about and read about the experience of abuse. The realief of this realization was potant to the extream degree. I WAS NO LONGER ALONE. While being hear I have had many good experience and a lot of really good feedback. I have also been able to reply and by doing so I hope and believe I have been able to help others as they have helped me. Along with these great and wonderful experiences I have also had a few negitive experiences that I feel have set me back on my journey to recovery.

I do not want to cause fights and problems for anyone and I am sure by some of the responces I have made I have caused pain. Please know that is not my intent. I put into all that I write the compleate definiton of my heart. I care so much for all of you and hate it when I am misunderstood and very much attacked. I try so hard to help as many people as I can because I know by doing that it makes things so much better for everyone. I have been down such a long path and have devoted everything I have to become healthy and productive. Because of my journey I feel that I have a lot to offer and so much more to learn.

The last little while I have been trying to share with all of you something that I just recently learned and feel I have been tearable misunderstood so I would like to try again because I think it is vitally important for all that have been hurt by sexual abuse to learn. I believe it is very important to share and help as many as I can through the process of learning and accepting it. Please don't take this as me tring to imply that I am better or somehow better off than anyone hear because believe me I am not. I am the same as all of you. I am just a person trying despretly to survive.

I hope some of this that I am going to post is helpful in some way to as many people possible. And I pray that it is not hurtful by any means what so ever. Thank you all for your time, it means a lot.

As I have been reading hear I have come accross a few posts that have been or better said I have took to be negitive. I have recieved PM's that have been anything but understanding or loving. I have been misunderstood by these individuals for a beliefe that I have, from this lesson that I have learned.

I want people to know that negitivity and hurtful postings gives nothing in return other than pain. People come to this board looking for understanding and acceptence. They have many questions and some beliefs that are not necisarily accepted. I am not saying things should be accepted if you disagree but instead of disagreeing negitively maybe we could try disagreeing in loving the person and by explanation. I am no saint when it comes to this. I have showed negitivity myself and I apoligize for that. I understand no one is perfect and I don't expect them to be but I think some of us could do better by embracing love instead of anger and negitivity. Just recently my mom told me that to be bitter is like swollowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. There is a song that says love is the only house big enough for all the pain in the world. A while ago while trying to understand that what happened was not my fault my therapist told me to look in a photo album and compare how small I was to how big my brother was. As I did this I realized two things. That what my brother did to me was not my fault and that he too was an innocent child at one time. I realized that he is not a monster but a person. (Imagine my surprise.) I have hated my brother for so long and in turn have hated all who have hurt children. I have come up with very inventive ways that they should die and have done so much more to protect and shelter my anger and rage. But when I saw these pictures in an album I just knew that holding onto that anger was and still is at times holding me back from an ultimate happiness that I so despretly want.

I want everyone hear to know that holding onto that anger and feeding it with water only hurts you. Please realize that what was done to you was monsterious, it was horrible and should not have happened but know that the people that did those things are still people. They are not monsters that come crawling out of shadows they people who have a horible adiction and need help with that addiction. I want people to realize that I am not telling them that they don't have a right to be angery, believe me I fantasized about so many things I wanted despretly to do to my brother. I wanted to rip his larynx out of his throat with my bare hands, I wanted him to be slowly lowered into a roto tiller while being casterated at the same time. I would sit for long periods of time just fantasising about new and wonderful ways for him die a slow excrutiating death. But I learned that all that got me was bitterness and more pain. He didn't care that I felt that way nor did he care that I was hurt. All it did was hurt me more. Do we have a right to be angery? You bet we do but what good does the anger and rage and hurtfulness bring? I just think and know that by loving with everything that we have and by standing up to this world we can change and make better so many things.

To understand and deal with the problem of abuse we have to realize and understand every aspect of it and stop it by dealing with all of the core root issues of not only the victim but also the perpetrator.

Looking at the world today I see things going down hill fast and I want that to change. The cases of sexual abuse are increasing not diminishing and I want that to change despretly. The ways we are dealing with this problem have not seemed to stop or even decrease the issue so why not try something different to see if that will.

The problems of sexual abuse have been apart of our society for way to long and I think it needs to stop or at least decrease and be far from what it is doing now which is increasing. What harm would it do to try and handle things by doing what seems to me a much better thing and that is dealing with and helping all who are in volved.

Some hear might argue that these perpatrators are getting help and therapy for there problems but I promise you that can not be further from the truth. I have looked into this and most of them never have the chance to do what we are doing hear, (Dealing with all the abuse in there past.) While they go away in prison they attend therapy throughout a day dealing with the issues of abusing children but never get to deal with the issues of being abused as a child. Most of us hear can say we have been met by people who told us to shut up and never speak of the abuse. We have been met by people that told us we were lying and we have been me by people who don't even care. But try and imagine having no one to care at all ever throughout a lifetime. We who are hear have been blessed by a gift that this board brings. That gift being a place to go to talk and be heard. To have someone to love and care about you, to finally be heard after a lifetime of being silent. I know that it is hard to care about these people because of what we have been through. But please I beg you all with my whole heart to try and overcome the never ending sorrow and rise above with love to achieve the glory of at least diminishing the problem.

Thank you again for your time. I am sorry to all that felt attacked by any of my responces. All I want is to share what I have learned and help as many people as I can. Please don't take any of this as an attack. I am just sharing what I think might make things a little better for everyone in this world.

Leosha, I am sorry that we have gotten off on the wrong foot. I am sorry that you have felt attacked by me and I am sorry that you felt by me answering your questions was innopropriate. I don't want you as an enemy. I do not want anyone as an enemy. You have posted many great things and have shown great courage. I respect you for all that and I thank you for being hear. I hope you can see my sincerity because everything I say is true. All I want is to help everyone that I can and to be helped in return. Thank you all again for your time and efforts in trying to understand all that I have said. I hope you all have a great day and I look forward to all of your responces.

malidin

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#6453 - 06/20/05 07:49 AM Re: Wanting understanding
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Malidin41,

Ok. You are a brother here. I am saying that to you. I am sorry if you have been truly 'attacked' at all, and not just your ideology questioned and not understood (and by me, perhaps totally disregarded out of hand, for which I do apologize to you, here and now). I have been attacked here as well,and it is a displeasant and unsettling experience, to be verbally assaulted by someone you assume you are in the same boat with. Start bailing, right?

I think, perhaps, I understand what you say of anger, or some of it. No, anger held forever, it is a true detriment to US and the process we are all wishing so much to succeed with. Anger holds us back from truly healing.

However. I personally feel there are situations that there is a 'righteous anger' about, by civilized human beings.

This part has GRAPHIC triggers, between the asterisks. I include it as examples. Please be safe and cautious if you read.
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My abuse began in the home, and only continued with the sport coach who would sexually abuse me for 8 years. My father was physically abusive to myself, my mother, my grandmother. And to my brother, who he killed, my father KILLED my brother through the abuse, when I was four years old, my brother was two. He literally beat him to death, and I sat on our bed and watched him have convulsions and stop breathing and DIE, right there, while I cried and tried to get my mom in the room.

Malidin, friend, I can not begin to tell you the impact that event has had on my brain and on my life. I hate my father. It is quite simple for me. It takes no energy from me. It would take much more of my time and energy to try to understand his motivations, and truly, I am sorry, I am not that good a man. I don't care. I do not hold bitterness to all men, to all fathers, to all people who have living siblings. I am not insane or stupid. But I do hate my father. And truth is, I do not mind it.

Still triggers.

I speak this with permission of the persons involved.

There is a man here in Russia who will be on trial in a few months, for murdering three teenage boys. Truthfully, they think he killed more, but it is three that they feel they can prove. He also molested these boys. He has molested other boys, including two other men who now are here for healing. It was not only molestation, but torture. Ongoing. Threats of death, and attempt to kill for one of them. These boys he did murder, he kept 'souvenirs' of them. That shows you the level of insanity and perversion of this man.

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Triggers over.

I did not PM that information to you, although I considered it, because if anyone else reads my response to you, without those examples included, I do not wish them making conclusions about ME without understanding more fully.

Malidin41, I just do not wish all perpetrators to be simplified and generalized. These two examples, yes, perhaps both of these men were also abused. But tell me. Truly, do you believe a sane, cogent person could ever 'understand' either of them? Or would the sane person go crazy trying?! ;\)

My friend, and I am truly attempting to feel that for you, you are a gentle and forgiving soul. And you have some good insight. However, please, please do remember this is not all black and white. Perpetrators, not all of them, maybe not even most of them, have concern or compassion for their victims. If I say, 'why should we care about them' in return, that is petty. But truly, I feel first we must care of OURSELVES. And so many survivors, we struggle even to do that. We do not have time or energy to spend on the person who put us here.

Now perhaps the more healed or the 'different plane' kind of people can forgive some of these offenders. My friend Andrei, he did that with one of his abusers several months ago. It was a powerful post to read, it was a positive step for him. It is not something I feel the need or desire to do, even though one of our abusers was the same man. (He has offended on 6 boys that *I* know of, myself included). Does the fact that I choose not to do that, or that I do not choose to attempt to understand his reasons for abusing me, does that make me an evil or bad person? Because honest, my friends who may read this, I have hard enough time to understand MYSELF. I have DID, and I can not even get everything in my head to agree on where I want to be sometime (including now).

So Malidin41, respectfully speaking to you, and this is but my opinion. I have faith that YOU mean what you say, and honestly, truly, that puts a lightness in my heart, that there are persons as forgiving and understanding as you and my young friend Andrei. Truly it does, that is not at all meant negative. However. I do fear that perhaps you do simplify the act of the abuse some. No, maybe not simplify, but generalize it. Not all abuse is simple. Not all abuse is without violence, or between family members. And my friend, not all people think as you. That is what I worry most of. You say that persons here have attacked you for your beliefs, and I am truly sorry for that, and truly? I am sorry that I have responded so very strongly against your thinking in the past. Please hear me now and know I am TRYING to understand where you are. I am just not there with you.

You do not wish to be attacked for your beliefs, and I respect that. But not everyone holds those same beliefs. Do you respect that? And can you respect the fact that, no matter what you may say, no matter WHO stays at this site, there are going to be people's minds you are NEVER going to change, and if they are comfortable and happy with their beliefs, that needs to be respected by you as well? That is what I wish for here, in general. I think you are a smart and kind enough man to be able to do that, and I will thank you for please reading this as it is intended, as truly trying to respond to YOU, and not just my feelings in my head. Is this ok?

Leosha

P.S. I was much more long-winded then I thought I would be right now! However,I think the main point I wanted to make was: I am glad that you had the epiphany about your brother. However, I just feel that perhaps you do not realize that sometime, these monsters, they truly ARE just that. Monsters. I am sorry. But it is true. Crazy people happen. Sociopaths happen. There is not rationalization or understanding of such people. Do you accept that as true?

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#6455 - 06/20/05 11:10 AM Re: Wanting understanding
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
We are all different.
We all have different histories and paths to recovery. I am glad Malidin that you found peace with yourself, that you are feeling good.
But I am not sure that just empathy could cure anyone on longterm.

Interestingly survivors are trying to understand their abusers very often. I had had this need also. It was connected to mine desire to forgive and make clean but not to mine abuser but to myself.
Now I do not care at all for "him". I do not care what happened to him before he met me; why hi started to do that; why was he so bad.
I do not care. I do not give a shit. And, you know, it is great relief to feel like that.

Mine perpetrator was also kid. Bigger yes, stronger yes but still just a kid.

There are no answers nor explanations...he was kid and monster at the same time, for me much more monster than a kid...

Ivo


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#6456 - 06/20/05 12:15 PM Re: Wanting understanding
Sinking Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
I think, on an intellectual level, that we all know forgiveness is healthier than hatred or anger. But with the emotions that come with confronting our past, the intellectual level often takes a back seat. Not because we choose to have it that way, but because it has to be that way. The emotions are raw. Emotions that we had to put away as children in order to survive. But they come rushing back to the surface for us and there is no longer any way to keep them down, no matter how much we want to, no matter how much we try. Leosha is so right when he speaks about how hard it is for some of us to make sense of ourselves. It's taken me years to be able to forgive myself, to forgive myself for something that was never my fault to begin with. Forgiving my abusers at this point is quite a stretch. In fact, I'd have to say that if I had a 'recovery list of priorities', forgiving my abusers would be right at the very bottom of that list. Taking care of me, taking care of the hurt little boy inside that no one else took care of when he was so vulnerable, that is my priority now.

I too am happy that you've found peace with yourself and your brother Maladin. And one day I would like to think that I can embrace the world and all the evil people in it too, for they must have been hurt somewhere along the way. But there are a lot of people who come before them, a lot of people I've never been able to love properly, a lot of people who I've never been able to accept love from because until recently, I was not good enough to be loved, in my head anyway. You say you are no better than anyone here, that you are the same. I don't know you well, but I can tell you this...You are better than those who abused us because, to my knowledge, you have never abused someone else.

Your thread asks that people try to understand you. I do and thanks for sharing. But I am not ready, might not ever be, to forgive my abusers. They were adults, they knew what they were doing, they did it for their own pleasure, or perversions, or sickness, or addiction...whatever you call it, they did it for them, to me, without a care in the world for me or for what I would face for the rest of my life because of what they were doing. At this point in my life, I feel they do not deserve my forgiveness. And the only reason to forgive them ever will be as an instrument in my healing. I wish you peace and I thank you for listening to my side. - John


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#6457 - 06/20/05 12:30 PM Re: Wanting understanding
Malidin41 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 140
Loc: Utah
Hello Leosha, I thank you so much for what you said you have no idea what that meant to me. I believe you are right that there is 'righteous anger' about, by civilized human beings. I believe there are certain stages in the recovery process and one of those stages is anger. You are an incredible person and I respect you a lot. As I have read your story I find myself wishing I could cry. I wish I could have been there at the time your father was doing those horrible things to you and smack some sense into him. You did not deserve that and neither did your brother. I am truly sorry for your loss and wish I could take away all of your pain. As I read the words of hatred toward your father I can almost feel it myself. To be honest as I was reading what you said he did to you and your family I really wanted to be there so I could kick him around the house and ask him how he liked it. Or maybe my vision of the roto tiller would be sufficient. I really do understand anger. I know that it can serve itís purpose. I just hope you know that I never wanted to imply that you did not have the right to be angry because you do. I just want all of us to be angry at the right things, the act. Hate the act, hate and destroy the pain caused by the act. Hate the hatefulness. Hate the destruction. Hate all the things that were done to you by your father. Hate all you want I know I do. I have plenty of hate. I hate what my brother did to me. I hate the acts of what others to each other. But I donít hate the people. I hate the acts. I understand fully that is my way of thinking. I understand fully that you or anyone else does not have to think that way. I understand more than you know how hard it is to differentiate those things. Oh how I understand, all I am saying is that to be healthier it is better to let go than to hold on with anger. You say you do not have negative reactions from your anger that you have if that is true then all I can say is that is great for you. However I think most people who are experiencing this kind of anger do have negative reactions. That's why forgiveness is part of the recovery process. I am also very aware that it is vitally important for all to only do this when they are ready and that it is not appropriate to force someone when they are not ready for it. As I continue to read your post through the second story you have shared I have spoken with the person you are describing and he is an amazing individual as well. I wish to god these things had not happened I wish more than anything I could have been there to protect you both. You continued on to say that you do not want perpetrators to be simplified and generalized. Well neither do I. I am not trying by any means to say what they are doing is ok. What all of them do is extremely horrible weather its one little touch or full blown rape and murder. All of what they do is horrible and that gives about 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000.1% to the justice of what it does. The act is vicious, monstrous and so much more. You asked, ďdo you believe a sane, cogent person could ever 'understand' either of them? Or would the sane person go crazy trying?!Ē I believe there is understanding in all things. For instance ask yourself the question why did Osama bin laden fly two plains into the twin towers on September 11 2001. Answer, because he thought it would get him to heaven. Why did Timothy Mcvay blow up the Government building in Okalahoma city. Because he thought that was the only way he could get the Government to listen. The funny thing is he got his point across. They started listening. Why did the teenagers at columbine high start shooting there class mates. Because they felt out of place. There are so many stories with reasons behind what they did. Does it make it right? No. Should we hate the persons? No. Should we hate the acts? Yes. Should they all have gotten help? Yes. Should they be tortured and hung for all there misfortune that they inflicted? To me no they shouldnít because they are still people. They just need help. We should embrace them with love and teach them that what they do is wrong. Should they be punished for there mistake? Absolutely. How should they be punished? I do not know. But what we are doing now is just hurting and breeding more pain and suffering. This way of thinking I do not see as being or treating things as being black and white. I see as being caring and having a strong desire to change things for the better. I agree with you fully about needing to take care of ourselves. That is the most important thing to do. But in my view there has to be a time and place for us to truly take care of ourselves and really heal completely by finishing the recovery process. And part of that process is forgiveness. Andrei is an amazing person. I have talked to him some tonight and had the opportunity to get to know him and he is truly amazing you are a lucky man to have him as a close friend. I stand proudly to give my utmost respect for all he has done in his recovery as I do for all. You asked if by not choosing to forgive or understand your perps does that make you a bad person? My answer to that is definitely not. Nowhere close. You are amazing and you do what is best for you. Your recovery process is yours not mine and not Andrei. It is yours alone. You do what you can do when you can do it. There is no time limit and no manual to fallow by. You are an individual not a book. No one can tell you how to recover other than you. I know Leosha that you are a great person. I know that you mean well and I am sorry as I stated above for my hostility toward you. I do understand that everyone has there beliefs and I have mine. I do know that not everyone has the same beliefs as I do and I know that if people donít agree with me I can not change there view unless I present things to make sense to them. But know I am not trying to make you change your opinion. I am not trying to harm you or tare you down. I just wanted to share with you something that I learned during my process of recovery that I think everyone might benefit from. I do respect that not everyone will have my same beliefs. I do respect that I may never change the minds of the people on this board. All I hope to do is help at least one person and possibly be helped myself down the path of recovery. I hope that for the most part in my responses hear I have respected the people. I know I have made mistakes but I hope I have been a good asset as well. I think for the most part I have respected everyone. Everything you said was ok Leosha. I really appreciate your time and effort. I truly do respect you and your opinions I have always respected them. As far as your last question goes I cannot accept that as being true. There are psychopaths, there are sick people but there is reasons for why they do what they do. Whether it be mental illness or something really bad that happened to them there is always a reason. I hope that belief of mine does not upset you. Itís not my intent. But I do believe there are reasons for everything. Some are not clear and some will never be but I believe they are there. I believe all people have the human right to be helped in all ways possible and I believe society is failing in providing that help. I thank you again Leosha for all that you said. I appreciate your kindness and willingness to reply to this thread. I hope I answered your questions sufficiently and I hope you do not take any of this to be harmful or disrespectful. I hope you have a great day and I hope to talk with you more later.

P.S. I appreciate all who have written on this thread and I tend to write to all of you at a later time. I do want to respond to everyone and will. I thank you all for your thoughts, time and energy for this thread. Thank you again. I will talk with you all again soon. I hope you all have a great day and or night. Bye for now my friends.

malidin

_________________________
Mother of the kingdom of silence I have obeyed you long enough!!!

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#6458 - 06/20/05 04:21 PM Re: Wanting understanding
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I have learned a lot from this thread and the related one, and I can now see that my own comments earlier just reveal how deluded and naive I have been. I certainly did not mean to be coming down on the side of abusers in some kind of vote, but I think others would say they did not mean to be taken in that way either.

A few comments very quickly (I hope!):

1. "righteous anger": what a great thing to see in black and white. We all have a right to be angry at what has happened to us, and sometimes a problem raised here requires a sharp response. In any case this is not a community of plaster saints. There is a lot of emotion and hurt all around us: I think it's great how this place does usually remain on an even keen.

2. forgiveness: IMHO there is no reason why I should forgive an abuser, not mine or anyone else's. That is absolutely not on my agenda, nor would I say it should be on the agenda of anyone else. Somewhere here it is usefully stated that you should consider forgiveness if you think it will assist you in your recovery. In my case I am only now beginning to understand things, so forgiveness is not in the cards for me at the moment. I feel no regret in thinking that way. I know that for some people forgiveness is something that works for them for various religious reasons, and I am not an unreligious person. These other people just see things differently than I do at the moment and that division is something both sides have to acknowledge and respect. I admire Andrei for forgiving his abuser not because that is what he should be doing, but because I can imagine how difficult that must have been and wonder at the courage it required.

3. acceptance: To accept a survivor/abuser here doesn't mean that we forgive him or agree to overlook what he has done.

4. diversity: I think the discussion over recent days highlights an important fact: survivors react in different ways to what has happened to them. While working together as a community, each of us has a right to our uniqueness as a person and as a survivor of a terrible experience that is somehow - and terribly - our own. Only I know what abuse means for me, and only I can find a way to deal with it in my own case. I am humbled and grateful when Leosha speaks of what it is like to witness the death of a sibling due to abuse. What that stresses to me is that what is being discussed here isnít a matter of abstract principle, but of real pain. The simple fact is that for some of us allowing an abuser to join us would be a source of so much pain and turmoil that he would not be able to remain here. People who tell us that arenít being arbitrary, they are expressing their pain and asking that others recognize it and respect it.

I donít offer any of this as taking us forward, I just wanted to revise my earlier simplistic view and say thanks to everyone for a very honest and soul-searching discussion.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#6459 - 06/21/05 05:25 AM Re: Wanting understanding
ShyBear Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Human beings are the only creatures that can rationalize away their instinctive self-protection mechanism of anger.

I think a lot of my anger is an appropriate step in the healthy process of putting the blame where it belongs - on my abusers.

The trick is to move *through* it, and on to the healing. Getting stuck in anger is terribly destructive to us, but forgiving our abusers is not necessarily required to move on.


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