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#63941 - 01/04/05 05:45 PM Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
TRIGGER WARNING ( In replies further down this topic )

This is my first post on this forum. I am afraid of what I have to say. But I need to say it anyway. Some truth and a little humor. For those of you who love us, please try to understand.

When a sexually abused child takes charge of his own soul from within the body of a full grown and experienced man, the repercussions can be devastating. To everyone within his reach. I am not suggesting that you simply deal with it. It is a force of nature. Deal with it or not. I guarantee that all he wants is honest nonjudgmental love. Acceptance. Forgiveness. Hope.
Put a quiet warm hand on the back of his neck in a moment of need. Focus all of your positive energy into that hand and pray for the natural salvation of his well being. And expect nothing.
Give the love you want. Act on the hope you hold. And unless he raises his hand to hurt you, forgive his failure to fulfill your dreams.

He hurts. You hurt. Heal together. It is not his fault. Nor is it yours. Both of you must let up on the blame game.

And could we do paragraphs instead of stream of consciousness? (This is a joke) Organize your bombast! At least hold off on your condemnation long enough to indent or separate paragraphs! Take a breath! Non stop complaint is not attractive or reassuring.

Now I am expecting a bloody nose when next I read this forum. Why? Go figure.

Aden


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#63942 - 01/04/05 07:23 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Emerald Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 21
Loc: here
Hi. This is my first post. I just had to say thanks for showing up in this section! Maybe it's the title ... "Family and Friends" that makes it difficult for survivors to post here?

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I tried, but my self esteem wasn't enough to make it through, I guess. I'm here to learn.

Thanks.
Emerald


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#63943 - 01/04/05 08:49 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Iantt Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 13
Loc: U.S.
I have not responded to anyone's posts here because this is too new with me. It took my partner nearly fifteen years to tell me. I have sought some help for myself to understand and to be a better help to him. But you have given some clear and simple ideas. Thank you for that.

Ian

_________________________
"Love is like everything else in this world, you have to fight for it" - Anonymous

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#63944 - 01/04/05 09:03 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Aden,

Welcome, and please don't expect the worst of us.

Quote:
I am not suggesting that you simply deal with it. It is a force of nature. Deal with it or not. I guarantee that all he wants is honest nonjudgmental love. Acceptance. Forgiveness. Hope.
Quote:
He hurts. You hurt. Heal together. It is not his fault. Nor is it yours. Both of you must let up on the blame game.
The advice you give in your post is sound, if somewhat simplified-- I don't think most of us would disagree with it, certainly not give you a bloody nose for it. In fact, much of the discussion on this forum is an expansion and examination of the things you're saying.

How do two people "heal together?" What enables us to forgive his failures? What goes into the very difficult choice to "deal with it or not?" What does it mean for us, as people and as partners, to act on hope, or to expect nothing? And can you do both of those things at once?

Secondary survivors, especially those of us who've spent years in that role, do need a place where they can discuss that stuff. I'm sure I don't have to tell you it's more complicated than it first appears.

The other very worthwile and important function of this forum is that it gives friends and family a place to come to terms with disclosure. Hearing about the SA of a loved one can produce strong emotions not entirely unlike the ones a survivor himself feels-- that's why people use the term "secondary survivor." And, as you've said, there are some of us who have experienced additional hurt and betrayal through the actions of survivors.

It's important for people just learning about the abuse in a friend or partner's life to have a safe place to vent those emotions, to learn about them and be validated. It's especially important if they are supporting a survivor during this same time. If they have their own betrayal and anger to process, that needs to be understood and validated too. Personally, I never had a problem accepting that my boyfriend wasn't to blame for his acting out. But my acceptance of that didn't make my hurt and anger disappear.

I think it may be some of these posts that you read as condemnation and complaint. It's natural that if these are the emotions we're bringing here to keep them separate from our own relationships, they might also come across as triggering or judgmental to some survivors. I think some well-intentioned F&F posts do trigger survivors and I think that may be part of why. I've heard at least one of the survivors on this site say that he reads people's first posts with the expectation that they'll be triggering-- it might be a good rule to follow in this forum too, for different reasons.

Aden, I hope you'll stick around and read more here, it's not all hostile, it's all hard work but that's not the same thing. Relationships are tough for everyone and probably tougher on survivors, and the partners here represent different types of relationships at all different stages. Like everything else, you have to figure out what you can use and leave the rest. ;\)

SAR


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#63945 - 01/04/05 10:23 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
beautifuldisaster Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: usa
I am brand new here as of yesterday. I want to say all involved here have been so helpful to me. I am a wife. I have suffered for 2.5 years in a wonderful relationship things I just couldnt put my finger on. I knew about what happened to my husband prior to our getting married, but had no idea until recently that the marry-go-round we have been on living on actually stemmed from this.
Call me ignorant, but my husband masked it so well that I feel as if I have been Alice falling down the well wondering what in the heck was going on. NONE OF IT HAS MADE SENSE!
Now finally, I am relieve to say.....EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE.
Your words are so helpful in my working with my honey. He is so kind and gentle, yet so hurt and angry. I see that in my actions instead of helping him in the past, I have hurt him constantly by trying to get him to do things he wasnt capable of doing.
I need direction, and the surviors are my touch-stones......my teachers in helping me evolve and heal with the man I love. I too am a victim of this circumstance. I too have been in emotional whirlwind of pain. I want to find peace in this for both him and myself.
At the same time the f and f in here are my advocates, and reality checks. I have been so distraught, I swear sometimes I felt like I was on candid camera.....
because one minute it was as it should be between a husband and wife......and the next I felt like I was just thrown off a wild bull. And I didnt even know I bought the ticket for the ride!
Please know we can learn so much from each other.
I think we crave that.
I will not be a victim. You all, this forum....are educating me to be the spouse of a survior. I am a survior by proxy.
I cant say though, that it doesnt hurt.
My husband has 28 years of shielding himself and dealing with things I have only just experienced.
I feel like I have stepped off an emotional cliff.


Take care, and peace be with all.

_________________________
I AM THE MASTER OF MY DREAMS,
I AM THE CAPTAIN OF MY SOUL-

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#63946 - 01/04/05 10:58 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Aden, What have F&F been missing? You.
You're analogy is spot on, something that I could never have put into words so comprehensivelly.

I would expect to see this in the preface of a really good book for survivors. I tend to read the preface of a book and decide to buy it, or put it back on the shelf. I would definitely buy yours.

You have a very creative talent in thinking, something that is so uncommon in the World.

It is strange that when we do really speak from our inner self, that we expect ridicule or hurt, because that is what we always grew up with.

Our hard wiring was damaged, but our inner thinking is always so much more thought out, and we sometimes/always expect the ridicule, so we shut up and put up.

Spot on post,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#63947 - 01/05/05 04:09 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
I've re read the original post several times.

What I am able to comprehend or understand in the posting is that as a partner to a male survivor -- I should give all with my support, expect nothing from him in return -- and what I do post comes across as non stop complaints. Which in turn makes me appear unattractive and non reassuring.
Thank you for validating the message that my separated spouse has been telling me for a very long time, but not so elequently (sp).
May your journey be a peaceful one,
Sammy


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#63948 - 01/05/05 05:03 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Sammy,

Short, sweet, direct and a touch of satire. Much better! I had expected a broken nose, two black eyes, and the immediate need for a plastic surgeon to reconstruct my chewed off ears. But what I got was a slightly defensive, self doubting rebuff.

No, you should not give everything you have and expect nothing in return. You should give everything you can and expect as little as possible.

It is in no way my intention to validate your estranged spouse. I donít know him or give a fig about him. But if he has been telling you these things and I (a total and uninvolved stranger) seem to reaffirm those things, then there may be some validity to the assessment.

Male survivors have to face some pretty harsh truths about themselves and their relationships. And apparently so do some of their partners. I wrote some things specifically for you, to help you, to show you what I saw. It wasnít for you Hubby. It was FOR you. In your favor. To your assistance.

I did not call you out. You saw yourself in what I wrote. You have enough awareness of where you are to use that awareness in a powerfully positive way. Should you chose to do so.

Your husband was a victim. You donít have to be a victim of a victim. Instead you could be a pillar of strength for him. Or not. It is a choice.

Aden


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#63949 - 01/05/05 05:30 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Aden & others- I always very much appreciate the guys participation on this board- and i am glad to have Aden's reactions to things read here- am constantly trying to understand more but I sure understand the bottom post too.

But as I edit i want to say that this strands title says it all- the core of the problem when we're perceived as hostile, as the "enemy" vs being perceived as desperately wanting to be supportive. i'd say it's incursion into loving ground , not hostile ground and that very misperception is at the core of the craziness described above. and again thanks for posting here- we do need the dialogue! An


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#63950 - 01/05/05 06:20 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Aden,
Those of us who participate in the F& F have been asked to follow the guidelines and not post in the male survivor forum. I respect that, it has been suggested more than once that if a F&F has a comment or ? for a male survivor to post it in this forum and to notify a moderator so that they can contact the male survivors.
Quote:
I wrote some things specifically for you, to help you, to show you what I saw. It wasnít for you Hubby. It was FOR you. In your favor. To your assistance.

I did not call you out. You saw yourself in what I wrote. You have enough awareness of where you are to use that awareness in a powerfully positive way. Should you chose to do so.

I am unsure exactly what it is you wrote "specifically for me", but if you did please re write them so that I know you are posting this directly to me, not to the entire F&F, it would have saved some confusion for me.

You also are aware enough of your language skills to use your own awareness in a powerfully positive way, should you choose to.

1) this is not hostile ground, as so implied in your title

2)
Quote:
And could we do paragraphs instead of stream of consciousness? (This is a joke) Organize your bombast! At least hold off on your condemnation long enough to indent or separate paragraphs! Take a breath! Non stop complaint is not attractive or reassuring.
You stated this was a joke, but your language used was specific enough to understand for even the simpliest of minds to read into this that the way some posters write and post you find as "complaints", unattractive nor reassuring. This forum should be a "safe place" for partners which includes not being criticized either indirectly nor directly on any matter.

Yes, I did find your post offensive enough to respond to it. Over the past approximate year or so I have seen far too many argumentative postings go on when someone intentionally tosses in a "hidden hostile" posting.

Quite simply, I stay out of the male forums, as do most f&f (some newer posters make mistakes) -- perhaps your comments regarding partners of survivors could be kept to the male forums.
Simply -- I'll stay on my side of the fence if you stay on your side.
Sammy


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#63951 - 01/05/05 06:48 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
The purpose of the family and friends forum is posted at the top of the page:
Quote:
Open discussion for male survivors and their families and friends.
It is not meant to be hostile, and I don't believe it is. In fact the overwhelming majority of the posters here handle themselves with grace and compassion, and are more than willing to go out of their way to keep this community friendly.

I'd like to see a real open dialogue that discusses some of the points made in Aden's original post and in the responses. But I don't think that can happen if people come into a discussion with an attitude that says "accept what I have to say, and then be quiet about it."

There is a perception among some male survivors, which many F&F rightfully find offensive, that once a partner or family member has made the choice to support a survivor, she no longer has a right to vocalize and get validation for her own feelings when that choice becomes difficult, and that her pain should always come second.

Aden, I don't know if that's what your post is meant to imply or even if it's what you believe. But I would suggest that such an opinion does not take into account the depth and reality of any long-term relationship. And I'd further suggest that coming into a forum like this with such a belief has more to do with any perceived hostility than whatever existed on the forum prior to that.

Please don't devalue or degrade the real pain and hard work that you see here.


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#63952 - 01/05/05 07:00 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
wifenneed Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 91
Loc: Michigan
Well put SAR. There is pain we suffer too, particularly great at times. This post initially made me feel like I as a spouse of a survivor had no right to question, expect anything from, or get validation for how I feel from my spouse.

Thank you for putting in to words what I was thinking.

Wifenneed


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#63953 - 01/05/05 09:13 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Here are $0.02. USD.

To Everyone: I do not AT ALL think that A. meant to imply that we have no "rights" in a relationship - and A. please forgive if I am putting words in your mouth.

What I, personally, absorbed from the original post, was a wistful longing & plea for the kind of love that ALL of us dream about - unconditional, compassionate, undemanding.

And - I feel that A. is being realistic about curbing our expectations - but perhaps we need to clarify that those expectations are fluid & often change over the life of a relationship AND over the course of a healing process.

Let's look at an analogy: when someone is suffering through a physical illness, we who love that person are often subjected to a bewildering arsenal of emotional weaponry from the sufferer: sometimes we can call it to the person's attention - when it is appropriate and when it is helpful. Sometimes we just gotta know when to back off & shut up.

As Our Dave often says - Survivors are notoriously difficult people to deal with: this is a given, it's part of the package.

This is why so many Survivors opt NOT to be in relationships - because they KNOW this pattern & bec. they are honorable people, they CHOOSE not to subject others to their own internal lack of control.

But for those who DO decide to pursue a relationship, it is critical for EVERYONE to remember that SA or no SA, PTSD or no PTSD, normal or totally screwed up - Love brings about more Love, Anger brings about more Anger. Unexpressed resentment that is left to fester, violent language & name-calling, invalidation through silence - all of these testing behaviors are abusive. Those who are subjected to them - whether Survivors or Partners - have a responsibility to THEMSELVES to respond & object. If not, there is no Self-Love & without Self-Love, there is no other kind of Love possible.

Respectfully,

K54

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#63954 - 01/05/05 10:14 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Aden said:
Quote:
No, you should not give everything you have and expect nothing in return. You should give everything you can and expect as little as possible.
and Kolisha said:
Quote:
I feel that A. is being realistic about curbing our expectations - but perhaps we need to clarify that those expectations are fluid & often change over the life of a relationship AND over the course of a healing process.
Here is my very big problem with lowered expectations at any phase of recovery/ relationships.

No matter who is asking that a partner lower the expectations of the survivor, the message underneath is a LACK OF TRUST IN THE SURVIVOR.

I have seen survivors and F&F alike display this lack of trust in the form of lowered expectations. Some examples are:

A partner who takes on or wishes s/he could take on recovery work that must be done by the survivor, because "he needs my help" or "he has always relied on me for advice/stability/to fix things" or "he knows I am a take-charge person and wouldn't have told me unless he wanted me to do this" -- or a survivor who holds the partner responsible for his success/failure in his own recovery work

A survivor or partner who excuses continued abusive/ disrespectful actions because of SA history

A partner who dwells on and continually brings up past wrongs or acting out

A partner who goes without his/her needs met for extended periods of time in the relationship as an "act of love" or "committment", or a survivor who demands this from a partner

A partner who focuses all of his/her positive energy on the survivor instead of meeting his/her own needs, or a survivor who demands this from a partner

It is my very strong opinion that all of these are a piece of the same thing, and it boils down to a lack of trust.

We have to trust-- believe, and expect, and not obsess-- that the survivors we love will do their own recovery work, will live up to their potential as honest, caring partners, will ask for and accept forgiveness when they are ready to deal with the pain they've caused us, will maintain their own boundaries and respect ours.

If we lower our expectations, we are sending the message that we do not trust the survivors to do these things. We are disempowering them-- taking the power OUT of their hands, when we and they should be demanding that they regain the control and mastery of their lives that was first taken from them when they were abused.

Let's face it-- as important as the role of a loving partner is to some people's recovery, as much as we all need others-- Survivors got to where they are today because of their own inner resources. There was a time in each of their lives when they handled this on their own. If they were so weak and untrustworthy as we would make them out to be when we are trying to rescue and justify, they wouldn't have ever gotten to this point.

If I may make an analogy of my own:

If I never ask my daughter to help me clean her room, or demonstrate how it should be done, but wordlessly pick up after her while she is playing or asleep or at school, how will she ever learn to clean the room herself?

If I never pick up anything of hers, and neglect her room until it is too messy to play in and all her toys are lost and broken, is it fair of me to expect that she would just figure out how to clean it herself if she really wanted it clean?

Cleaning a room may not seem like a big deal to an adult who's lived in relative order for much of his/her life, but it requires a set of skills, some of which are over a small kid's head.

As a parent, I had to learn what was realistic and appropriate to ask of her at different stages of her development, and be patient but firm in asking her to meet my appropriate expectations. As she gained the ability to perform more complicated tasks, I raised my expectations.

Of course my boyfriend is not a child, and it is not my responsibility to teach him communication (or housecleaning) skills as I do my children.

When partners come here, they should be learning how to set and re-evaluate expectations that are both realistic and trusting. At times, in the beginning, we can have expectations that are too high and we should examine that. But I think mostly we set expectations too low and get upset (or complain, or nag, or blame) because we magically want the survivor to act above the level at which we trust him and give him permission to act.

Believing that a relationship where all is given and nothing is expected will mature and grow stronger is, in my opinion, about as sensible as believing that a child who is never expected to pick up her toys will wake up one day wanting and knowing how to keep a room clean all on her own. It is also about as loving.


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#63955 - 01/05/05 11:06 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
dmcdd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 26
My wife expects alot from me. She expects me to get on with my recovery. She expects me to be the best man I can be, regardless of past trauma.

She expects me to provide for our family - because I told her I would.

She expects me to protect our family - because I told her I would.

She expects me to love, honor, and cherish her - because I vowed that I would.

She expects a shining knight on a white stallion - I endeavor to live up to that.

When I was having problems with rage, she expected me to direct it away from her - I did, because she's the love of my life.

When I was having problems in bed, she expected me to be trusting and open - I did, even though it was the hardest thing I've ever done.

She has high expectations, and I love it. I have a lofty goal. Without goals, we stagnate.

I expect her to love me even though I don't always live up to her expectations - and she does.

I expect her to leave me and file for divorce if I ever abuse her or our children - and she will.

Being an SA survivor gives me no license to hurt others. I have hurt others, and I have tried to make ammends since I know what hurt does to a person.

IMHO, the best thing my wife can do is expect alot. Forgive lapses, but expect progress. Leave if there's abuse of any kind. Hold me responsible for my own actions. My abuser took no responsibility - I am better than that.


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#63956 - 01/06/05 01:50 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Dear dmcdd-
Quote:
IMHO, the best thing my wife can do is expect alot. Forgive lapses, but expect progress. Leave if there's abuse of any kind. Hold me responsible for my own actions. My abuser took no responsibility - I am better than that.
I really appreciated your post as i have all of these- that last thing you said got me to thinking- I wonder if the biggest factor in how we're treated is whether the CAS has held their abuser responsible- something I sense my bf hasn't done yet. I anticipate that being key to consistent progress and he has said that too - would it be right to say that without that (the responsibility being put unequivocally on the abuser) the unresolved anger can only get projected unto the wrong people- either the survivor himself wherein he gets depressed and down on himself or the family and freinds and especially those closest to him and safest to throw the anger on.
I rumple up inside when my bf talks about needing to forgive himself for being a survivor ! cause I know the responsibility is not at all his and I feel like it prevents it being put where it totally belongs instead. I'll be glad when that day comes. And I like all that was said about trusting the survivor- of course when that trust feels so betrayed we find ourselves here "ranting" in our disappointment but we all want so much to hope, trust and believe, it's just a lonely place to be when it's only the two of you and he doesn't yet believe in his own power.
This is such a good place~ thanks again to all! An


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#63957 - 01/06/05 04:26 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Val Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 8
Loc: nc
dmcdd

Thank you for your post. I hate the abuse that has occurred to my husband. I hate what it has done to him and our family. That being said I can not always use his abuse as an excuse for everything he has done hurtfull or harmfull. He is a victim but he is also an adult and must take responsibility for his actions. I will stand by him and support him but he must try to succeed and have hopes, dreams and goals for the future. It was just nice hearing a SA survivor say those words.


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#63958 - 01/06/05 06:22 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Lets use my ex-wife as an example.

I cared for a 3 acer, heavily wood lawn, a 2500 sq. ft. garden, cleaned both bathrooms and the kitchen, mopped the floors, vacuumed and shampooed the carpets, took care of all the typically male responsibilities around the house (gutters, painting, installations, repairs, snow removal etc.) And my job required 60-80 hours a week. Figure up the time and effort required for all of that!

She gave the kids everything they wanted, and required nothing of them in terms of help or discipline. I cooked most of my own meals. Her kids didnít like the kind of food I eat. She and the kid lived on Hamburger Helper and Pizza. And she frequently complained that I didnít do enough laundry and that we didnít have enough money. In all of the years that we were married (10) we never once had a disagreement where I was right. She neither apologized nor compromised. Finally, she got fed up with my laziness and inattention, used our savings to pay off all of the debts in her name, bought herself a new washer & dryer, a new car for her daughter, and changed the locks on the house. Why? Because I was too moody.

Thank God and Greyhound...

Now I agree with all of you who believe that partners have a right to reasonable expectations from their mates. The key word being REASONABLE. Sometimes it is a good idea to back up and ask ourselves if our expectations from our partners are compatible with their present ability.
Maybe by rights you should never have to forgive an others weakness. But love forgives none the less.

I am not trying to defend any bodies bad behavior here. It is just that sometimes our assessment of a situation can be really one sided. You know how your partners actions affect you. But do you know how your actions, demands, expectations affect your partner?

The example of my ex-wife is extreme. Just luck (or poor judgment) I guess. But the point is, she never had a clue that she was unable to see the other side of things. She considered herself to be a self-sacrificing help mate, long suffering and companionate. After 10 years of that attitude, the divorce was like the grace of God descending. Salvation!

All that I am suggesting is that before you pass harsh judgments on your partners, take a long look in the mirror. Are you the saint you think yourself to be? Iím not. I was moody! But not all of my bad attitude was the result of CSA.

Some men are born irritable, some men become irritable, and some men have irritability thrust upon them... :p

Aden


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#63959 - 01/06/05 03:29 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
FastForward Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 188
Loc: US
Aden - You rock! it takes guts to look at yourself and actually see what is there. You must be one awasome human being.

Having said that, when push comes to shove, it is the two people involved in the situation that ultimately deal with it. Even with all the information contained here and elswere, it is my responsibility to decide my actions and be accountable for the results of those decisions.

I have been doing some serious reality living in the past 12 months and have realized that and more. THe sadest thing to me now is doing "the same thing over and over and expect different results". \:\)

Living in reality and holding oneself accountable is TOUGH. But hoe can one even beging to like the person one is is one is a stranger to him or her.

Moral of the comment: we all are fallible. Refusing to see it, acknowledge it, and deal with it is what hurts most. (IMHO)

Peace.

_________________________
FastForward

L&P - always.

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#63960 - 01/06/05 04:28 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
reesersgrl Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 37
Loc: ny
Wow-theres quite a lot of stuff going on in this post. Soemtimes, it's just not as easy as being there for them, understanding them, being patient.I have done all that. Somebody said placing a comforting hand on the back of his neck? My b/f recoils when I do that. Sometimes I can't touch him anywhere.And when I realize not to take it personally and where he is in his mind at that point, I try to comfort him with words and try to get him to understand that MINE is a LOVING touch, and NOT the hand of his abuser.
I am sitting here KNOWING that I have done everything in my power to be there for him, but being made to believe that I have done nothing.


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#63961 - 01/06/05 05:35 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
dmcdd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally posted by reesersgrl:

I am sitting here KNOWING that I have done everything in my power to be there for him, but being made to believe that I have done nothing.
"It ain't so much the things you don't know that get you in trouble. It is the things you think you know that just ain't so!"
Artimus Ward (1834-1867)


Sometimes what a survivor needs is not obvious. Sometimes he may not need loving words (it may seem condescending to him). Oftentimes he won't know what he needs, so asking might not do the trick either. Sometimes he just needs to lash out - don't allow it to be towards you.

Sometimes he needs just an ear without a mouth. That's kinda blunt - I don't mean any offense to anyone. There have been a few times I asked my wife to please just sit and listen. Don't say a word, and loose the "sympathy puppy eyes". I just needed to say the words and have someone hear 'em. In my case it was about having problems directing my rage. When I was done, she said "is that it?" I said yes, she said "I hope I helped", got up and left the room. No judgement, no sympathy, no loving touch - It just felt good that someone else knew what I was battling at the moment.

If he's telling you you're doing nothing for him then IMHO he's giving you a hint - try doing nothing except waiting, loving, and refusing to put up with any crap.

Above all, he needs someone to believe and expect that he can and will improve.


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#63962 - 01/06/05 05:35 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
When a man recoils from the touch of one who ďlovesĒ him, there is a reason. There are many possible reasons. For me it is a failure of trust. Sometimes, but not always, justified.

My abused child does not always see clearly the difference between a loving or a demanding embrace. Do you hold me to reassure me or for your own reassurance? I despise being hugged by my mother! She demands a degree of acceptance and forgiveness from me which she will not give to me in return. Yet other, more well intentioned souls, I will embrace and pour out my empathic well being as a healing force.

What is it you want from your partners, and more importantly, why? If you honestly want to help them then you must realize that they will never become the perfect person you wish them to be. And you must understand your own motives behind the help you offer. Sometimes the thing that you think you are giving is in fact a thing you are demanding.

You will achieve more positive results when your intentions are clear within yourself. Do you touch me to heal me or do you touch me to be reassured? Is your help a gift or a demand? It is not too much to ask that you examine your own motivations.

Aden


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#63963 - 01/06/05 06:00 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
dmcdd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 26
Aden,

Geeze Louise you're Ex sounds like a real looser! I'm happy for you that you're one of the things she lost \:\) .


You hit the bullseye when you recommend that partners and family do some serious self-examination. I think it's human nature to get on a track and stay there, rolling along comfortably figuring if the direction we're going was good when we headed out, it's still good now. Even if we see a bridge out ahead, it's really tough to change direction.

I've been told that it's normal to expect those around us to treat us well, or at the very least to not hurt us. I've been told that healthy people strive to be better tomorrow than they are today. Survivors need partners to serve as examples of healthy behavior - and make sure they don't get sucked down with us.


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#63964 - 01/06/05 08:53 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
reesersgrl Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 37
Loc: ny
My only intention, Aden, was to give him love, to let him know that he is loved and cared for. I have listened and I have tried not to judge. I definitely have a better understanding of some things now, because I have made it a priority to inform myself. I think the partners who are here have only the best intentions and selfish reasons arent a part of that.


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#63965 - 01/06/05 09:23 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Aden,

This is what I have to say, I hope you will try to understand it.

Your previous marriage sounds pretty terrible. I'm sorry you had to experience it, and sorry that there were children involved in it.

A forum like this, meant to foster open discussion about the tricky work of relationships with survivors, works best when people in all kinds of situations can honestly speak from their own experiences.

It does not work as well when you come in and judge others, or paint them all with the same brush, based on those experiences.

Quote:
But the point is, she never had a clue that she was unable to see the other side of things
I'd suggest to you that the entire point of this forum is for partners to educate themselves and seek answers with open minds, because they have already recognized that there is more going on than what they can see.

None of us found this site because we were looking for a board to condemn and complain about the survivors in our lives. Partners find this site the same way most everyone else does-- looking for answers and information about male sexual abuse. And if any came here thinking that they had the whole picture, I'm sure they didn't think it for long-- a quick overview of the articles here or the survivors board is enough to prove that.

You and I, like everyone else on this forum, can only speak from our own knowledge and experience. My experiences in life and reading this forum have validated quite a few of the points you're making-- there are some who would demand from others and call it a gift. There are some who would rather not examine their selfish motivations for overinvolvement in another's healing. There are some who'd rather not realize their imperfections. I am not at all offended that you would point out when something you read here resonates with your own negative experiences, and offer truth based on that.

But as a partner who has done an awful lot of the self-examination and forgiveness that you're suggesting is so uncommon among spouses, I was offended that you assumed so much-- or maybe so little-- of the friends and family in this community. At least that was the impression I, and some other members here, got from your first two posts in this thread.

If you believe, from your experiences and what you've read here, that you have helpful truth to offer the friends and family of survivors, why not begin by telling us what about the posts here, or your own situation, makes you offer that advice?

Instead you came into a forum of hurting, loving people, made statements that devalued our hurt and our love, suggested that all of us expect too much of the survivors in our lives, and then stated your expectations of us, which I have to say, are not realistic, if you read the posts in this forum.

Did you truly expect to be attacked for speaking from your own past hurt, or for making honest and respectful suggestions about how we can help our loved ones?

What expectations do you have, exactly, when you come into a forum full of posts that demonstrate a rather high level of self-examination, forgiveness, hope, strength, and open-minded love-- and then address the entire community as if we have no grasp on these concepts?

Your opening comments here made more than one partner of a survivor uncomfortable, not because we saw an uncomfortable part of ourselves in them, but because we don't like to have unfair demands presented to us in the form of assistance either.

Aden, I don't want my words to deter you from offering specific, respectful observations about what you read here. I'm glad you were able to share your truths despite your fear, and I'm not suggesting that you not share them because they are hard to accept. I am just asking you to take a look at how the first two posts in this thread were offensive to some of us here.

I'd like to ask you your own question: What is it you want from the friends and family here? And why? What are the motives behind the help you offer?

I'm neither a saint nor a judge, and I'd like to give you what you want from us, if I can.

SAR


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#63966 - 01/10/05 04:01 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
I'm a survivor but I can't make it through all the posts. They are so incredibly good and touching, I sit here with tears in my eyes.

I want to learn how to trust. I want to learn to respect women. I want to learn to respect myself.

I couldn't give a hot hoot about eloquence. This board has been a godsend. When I first started reading info on this site it scared me because I was looking in a mirror. It was like you knew my life history.

What did I do to deserve all the terrible things done to my mind, my body, my soul? I was a good boy when I was 11. I really was, but I got used and used and used.

I sit here crying.

To all spouses of a survivor, you must understand that you are a heavenly angel sent to take the misery out of our lives. You can't even begin to imagine the hell we live in. There were things my wife wishes I hadn't told her.

It takes a lot of courage to post here. At 16, my first T abused me. I think he called it sex therapy and I was his whore for 3 years.

Three very long years.

I lost my soul when I was 14. I felt it leave my body.

There are many things I've never told a T. There are many things I've never told my wife. There are many things I've never told myself.

I would like to love, honor, and respect my parents, but when I was 13 I told them about the rampant sexual abuse in our dorm and by the rabbis and their response was there was nothing they could do! How can parents do something like that? Now they say that was so long ago. To this day they have never even apologized. I begged them to just say they were sorry but they refused. There was nothing they could do!

So the next time any of you family members complain how difficult we are, whether in a post or to your spouse, or just to yourself, just try to imagine what it feels like to be raped. The physical pain alone.

If you go to church or synagogue or whatever, go over to your spiritual leader and while he is talking to you imagine that he is fondling you in the church? Well, that is what happened to me. I was a teenager.

Just a little food for thought.

I do not mind if people PM me. I only ask that you never, ever judge me.


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#63967 - 01/10/05 05:53 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kakdla

Quote:
and I was his whore for 3 years.
No, you were NEVER his 'whore' - he was the whore, which my dictionary describes as "an offensive term for somebody regarded as sexually indiscriminate".

He was the one 'indiscriminate' one, as indeed were all your abusers.
Remember exactly how powerless you were and how powerful they were. Were you being 'indiscriminate'?

No.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63968 - 01/10/05 06:41 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Kakdla,

Thank you for bringing this important message forward to our helpmates. Your openness is courageous. It doesnít SEEM like we know you personally. We DO know you personally. And welcome you as part of our selves.

Aden


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#63969 - 01/12/05 02:47 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
TRIGGER WARNING

I wish I knew you or someone like you when I was a teenager. I started going to xxx movies when I was 16. It mirrored my life and I mirrored its life. In part of one of the movies I saw, there was a scene where people went to see a snuff film. I saw a bound and ball-gagged woman stabbed to death.

I saw movies made to look like real life, not actors, where women were raped. It showed women first fighting then enjoying the rape.

I never fought and I never enjoyed.

Where I grew up it was ok to have sex with a boy but forbidden to even look at a girl. Women were considered impure.

If I upset anyone, I do apologize, but I have to speak.

K


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#63970 - 01/12/05 02:38 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
Thank you for not deleting my post.

K


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#63971 - 01/12/05 06:59 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Hey K!

I may be wrong about this, but I think only original authors & Mods can delete posts.

Mods only get involved if there is something harmful or fake about the writing.

The sentiments you have expressed are all honest & moving. You give the rest of us a lot to think about.

Please consider yourself "family" here.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#63972 - 01/14/05 08:32 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada



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#63973 - 01/14/05 08:52 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
PAS Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Aden:
Lets use my ex-wife as an example.

*snip*

Maybe by rights you should never have to forgive an others weakness. But love forgives none the less.

*snip*

All that I am suggesting is that before you pass harsh judgments on your partners, take a long look in the mirror. Are you the saint you think yourself to be? Iím not. I was moody! But not all of my bad attitude was the result of CSA.

Lets try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt on here.. we should all try not to map our experiences onto others experiences.. we're all different. And in relationship difficulties it is not only one person's or the other's behaviour that is causing the problem.. it USUALLY is a case of both partners contributing into a difficult or messy or challenging system... half of which (our partners issues) happened WELL before we even came on the scene.. which is probably the most difficult thing for us. We often have to pay for the sins of people who hurt our beloved WELL before we even showed up.

Unconditional love is a difficult thing - While I do love my husband I sometimes abhor some of the things he DOES and I cannot accept them.. there's a big difference between WHO someone is and their BEHAVIOUR.

I deep down know my H is a great and loving man but sometimes in reaction to his past he's pretty hurtful to me and I refuse to accept that beahviour. Does that mean I dont love him because I dont let him say and do whatever he wants to me when he gets angry/triggered? No. And because I love him does that mean I have to put up with disrespectful or mean behaviour? No. If over time he continues to treat me with disrespect and I decide to end the relationship does that mean I dont love him? No - but it does mean that I love myself and respect MYSELF I dont want to submit myself to something that I feel to be difficult or abusive or hurtful to my own self anymore. Sometimes when locked in cycles of dysfunction we have to take some tough stands with either ourselves or with others in order to break them.... While I can handle some challenges in my relationship with my H I dont think I'd be willing to put up with the same old same old FOREVER. I have to see some willingness to accept some of the problems in our relationship and a willingness to continue working on himself and our relationship. If it ever stagnates and hes not open to continuing to work with me then I dont know how long we'd stay together...

P


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#63974 - 01/15/05 10:34 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Dave,(lloydy)
I sent you a private message .... please read and respond
thank you, sammy


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#63975 - 01/15/05 04:30 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
I told my wife she that she is an angel. Her response was that she's far from that. We all have our weaknesses.

We are the sum of our experiences.

I live a very productive life. I learned how to swim a year ago though I was terrified of water. Then I learned how to dive though I had a fear of heights and vertigo.

I put mind over matter.

I have accomplished many things in life, but I just cannot reconcile how my parents did nothing when I told them about all the abuse when I was 13. My parents were pillars in their community. They were well thought of.

They weren't going to let little me ruin everything for them. I was mere garbage.

So, how do I reconcile that my parents didn't care? And don't go and tell me they did their best.

If your child came to you today and told you they were being fondled by grown men, would you say there is nothing you can do? Where was my parents' resposibility?

Don't tell me it's the past. Don't tell me to get over it. That's what my parents say. They say there is nothing to apologize for.

It's so hard for me to understand how someone could possibly love me. Why would they feel that way? My parents didn't even love me.

I always felt that I was adopted. I knew real parents could never do anything like that. So how the hell am I supposed to honor my father and my mother?

And since they refuse to even mouth the words of apology, why should I care when they die? Why should I sit in mourning? Why should I pray for their souls?

If they had only pulled me out of that school I would not have been fondled. I would not have been raped. But they didn't care about me.

I can't even imagine not helping my child. My parents gave up on me when I was 11. By time I was 13 I was just... I was nothing.

But I don't sit around having pity on myself. I work hard, I care for my family and I care for myself.

By the way, there's nothing like diving off a diving board. I know there aren't too many 5o year olds that do it, but I've never let something like that stop me.

I've had people in their 50's and 60's tell me that I was their inspiration to learn how to swim. What an incredible feeling!

If I didn't believe anyone could overcome a limitation, I wouldn't be fighting so hard with my past.

If you are not a survivor, be patient, because we are also patient with you. You may have shortcomings but we were deprived of our dignity.

I got my first T when I was 16. He told me that it was perfectly normal to have sex with men. When I told him I wanted a sex operation he told me to wait until I was 21. He told me a lot of things. He was very abusive but I was stupid. I did whatever he told me to do.

I'm sure someone is going to say I wasn't stupid. Ok, I wasn't stupid. I wasn't brave enough to kill myself. I tried so hard but no one wanted to kill me. I gave so many people a chance.

I sold my body for sex. I stood on a street corner in a short skirt, heels, makeup and a wig. I was a 16 year old boy. Try to imagine. I didn't do it for the money because I gave all the money to someone else. I didn't do it to buy drugs because I didn't take drugs. I didn't need drugs.

I had sex while other people watched. I had sex with animals. Besides the people who were animals. I walked around nude and strangers touched me. It didn't matter to me.

I had lost my soul years ago. No one cared about me. No one. A rabbi would take my penis out of my pants in synagogue and masturbate me. I learned to get used to anything. Anything.

I soon got into BDSM. And I'm talking about incredible pain. I could handle anything. I did this until I met my wife. She was the first person I was ever with in a sexual relationship who refused to hurt me.

I thought she didn't love me. How could someone love me if they refuse to hurt me?

K


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#63976 - 01/15/05 09:38 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Val Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 8
Loc: nc
I know this probably sounds so lame and silly KAKDLA but as I sit here with tears I want to hug you and tell you how important you are. You make me hug my kids a little tighter and wish even more to make a better connection with my estranged husband. Thank you.


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#63977 - 01/15/05 10:21 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
Val

Thank you for your reply. I was hesitant about getting so personal. I'm so afraid people won't believe what happened to me was true. I dared the devil. I dared death. And by not dying I was stronger than death. Death didn't even want me. That's how bad I was.

I did crazy things, and nobody cared.


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#63978 - 01/18/05 04:20 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Pollyanna Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 211
Loc: Missouri
KAKDLA, and everyone...

This is why I'm here. Because I DID believe a 17 year old boy. And you will too if one ever comes up to you and tells you things that you tried to tell "responsible adults".

The thing is...with the thread...if I can remember everything...EVERYONE has some kind of 'issue'. This site is for male survivor issues and how to make it work. For me, the guys' input was crucial.

I know that trust is a biggie. It's even an issue with me, and I'm not a "survivor". Here, some people can trust more than they ever have been able to in their entire lives. Maybe from the anonymity, maybe from finally knowing someone "gets it".

I have so appreciated the guys who helped me know what to do. To me, that is what 'support' means..."this is what I'm seeing...what can I expect, and what should I do?"

I wish I knew how to say what I want to say!

I don't see Aden as trying to offend anyone.

Here's one way I can explain how I may feel if I were one of the guys trying to help out here. If I went somewhere to help with a music thing, and people were bringing up all the "dirt" on people who play Gibson guitars, I'd probably take my guitars and go home. If instead they asked me how I replace the strings, I would tell them...even show them.

Yes it's hard. Yes it all hurts. But as someone said up there...I think Kolisha...anger only fosters more anger. We all need to vent sometimes, but I think maybe venting about the strings instead of the whole guitar may be less hurtful for the other guitars who just want to make good music!

Lloydy is such a great example. He always has something encouraging to say. Even when he has a not so good day, he's lifting others. I know when I do that, it lifts me.

Anyway, I am grateful for what everyone has given me.

Hugs,
Lynn

_________________________
"Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work: you don't give up."

Ė Anne Lamott

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#63979 - 01/18/05 05:59 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Aden, and everyone else.

I felt I had to respond because there is a chance (MORE than that, if I've been catching the subtle nuances in this thread) that what you've posted, and how others respond, can be misconstrued as hostility.

Not the place for it. I won't stand for it, and it's not conducive to the healing that is supposed to be the purpose of this site.

Having said that, however, you raise some valid points, both here and in your other thread. What IS the purpose of MaleSurvivor? First and formost, it's a resource and support for MALE SURVIVORS of sexual abuse. This can't be forgotten.

Secondly, it is a resource for those who love and support the survivor in the "real world." It's here to help them understand what the person they know is going through, and perhaps find ways of helping them deal and cope with it.

But we must also not forget that we can be difficult to deal with as well, causing them equal pain when we are hostile or lash out. This is where the F&F forum also comes in.

It is a place for people to vent and ask for love and support. Same as everywhere else here. It's what we all want and need.

As for writing style. I know you meant to use humor to make a point, Aden, but personal writing style is an extention of their personality. It's also a way for people to get their thoughts in order so they can see what they ARE thinking. Some may not know and use their posts here to have their ideas take shape. To make light of this can be harmful and hurtful, even when we don't MEAN for it to be.

Aden, the site IS for us, but it's also for others seeking information ABOUT us to HELP us. It's also a place for them to rant on about how WE make THEM feel. WE don't mean to hurt others, but it's the nature of the trauma we faced that makes it inevitable.

Just my 2 Europennies (the exchange rate is making U.S. currency more difficult to deal in \:D ) worth.

Peace and love to all.

Scot

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#63980 - 01/20/05 10:19 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 294
Loc: Europe
Hey, everybody. I've been part of this community on and off for over a year now and this thread is easily the most important one I've come across. I missed a few days reading it, though, and just can't go back to catch up on it all. I think I've got the main points, though.

IS F AND F HOSTILE GROUND FOR MALESURVIVOR?
Not at all! I'm actually getting emotional writing this because family and friends have supported me so much when I needed it so much.

Dealing with childhood abuse as an adult was very hard and confusing for me. When I told my wife, she minimized what the matter at first. (Is that all?) This hurt, but I found support here, and suggestions for continuing the conversation with my wife. Sometimes, when I just read without posting, I gained a sense of what this might mean for her. In other words, I realized this is not just about getting support, but giving it. And that family and friends have real pain.

How could I call this hostile ground when these people facilitated my healing?

WHAT ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS

O.k. sometimes I did not like what I saw at F and F. But that could be said for any thread anywhere on this site. There may have been one or two times (literally that's the maximum) when I wanted to stick up for malesurvivors but didn't because I thought it would be unfair to family and friends. They put up with a lot of crap and deserve/need some space where they can share without having to explain or apolagize to us.

WHAT ABOUT RULES
I trust (do I have a choice) people not to go to a malesurvivor thread unless they belong there. My understanding is that family and friends is not restricted. I have now notice clear titles asked malesurvivors to keep out and I think that is a good thing, a very fair request. When I see that, I respect it. If I don't see such a warning, I assume things entry is allowed. (And I don't think that such a request is hostile.)

WHO IS THIS SITE FOR (FOR WHOM IS THIS SITE INTENDED)

I need to renew my membership, but my conviction regarding this site and this organization is that it is for humanity. Yes, we are working towards the healing of male survivors of sexual abuse-assault, and the prevention of future cruelty, but men and boys are not the only one who benefit from this service.

Friends and family of survivors need support and guidance, and if Malesurvivor doesn't offer that, who the heck will. Not to mention, that if F and F get the help they need, they are more able to give what we need.

HOW SHOULD WE WRITE

Organized paragraphs don't to justice to the chaos and confusion we are dealing with here. If we can't let our thoughts and feelings flow freely, we might not ever work through them. Some times it helps just to get them out first, and sort them through later.

"Non stop complaint is not attractive." Aden, are to be commended for starting this thread with and honest, tender, and articulate post, but this comment that you wrote later I just don't get. God help us if anyone here is trying to keep their content attractive.

WHAT ABOUT JOKES

I'll be up front, when my brother abused me (now I think rape is the word for one particular incident, but I'm trying to deal with that), he laughed, and I did too because he said it was funny.

How much that plays a part in my aversion to sarcastic, bitter humor, I don't know. Bottom line, I don't find it constructive to blend criticism and humor. If the recipient of the criticism lets the joke go, hurt can linger. If the recipient addresses it, they are acused of not having a sense of humor and taking things too seriously.

O.k. I'm talking about something very personal and suddenly I switched to a very distand, abstract tone. It's confusing.

Humor can be good, but let's not use it as a cover for accusation/criticism.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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