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#63961 - 01/06/05 05:35 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
dmcdd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally posted by reesersgrl:

I am sitting here KNOWING that I have done everything in my power to be there for him, but being made to believe that I have done nothing.
"It ain't so much the things you don't know that get you in trouble. It is the things you think you know that just ain't so!"
Artimus Ward (1834-1867)


Sometimes what a survivor needs is not obvious. Sometimes he may not need loving words (it may seem condescending to him). Oftentimes he won't know what he needs, so asking might not do the trick either. Sometimes he just needs to lash out - don't allow it to be towards you.

Sometimes he needs just an ear without a mouth. That's kinda blunt - I don't mean any offense to anyone. There have been a few times I asked my wife to please just sit and listen. Don't say a word, and loose the "sympathy puppy eyes". I just needed to say the words and have someone hear 'em. In my case it was about having problems directing my rage. When I was done, she said "is that it?" I said yes, she said "I hope I helped", got up and left the room. No judgement, no sympathy, no loving touch - It just felt good that someone else knew what I was battling at the moment.

If he's telling you you're doing nothing for him then IMHO he's giving you a hint - try doing nothing except waiting, loving, and refusing to put up with any crap.

Above all, he needs someone to believe and expect that he can and will improve.


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#63962 - 01/06/05 05:35 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
When a man recoils from the touch of one who “loves” him, there is a reason. There are many possible reasons. For me it is a failure of trust. Sometimes, but not always, justified.

My abused child does not always see clearly the difference between a loving or a demanding embrace. Do you hold me to reassure me or for your own reassurance? I despise being hugged by my mother! She demands a degree of acceptance and forgiveness from me which she will not give to me in return. Yet other, more well intentioned souls, I will embrace and pour out my empathic well being as a healing force.

What is it you want from your partners, and more importantly, why? If you honestly want to help them then you must realize that they will never become the perfect person you wish them to be. And you must understand your own motives behind the help you offer. Sometimes the thing that you think you are giving is in fact a thing you are demanding.

You will achieve more positive results when your intentions are clear within yourself. Do you touch me to heal me or do you touch me to be reassured? Is your help a gift or a demand? It is not too much to ask that you examine your own motivations.

Aden


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#63963 - 01/06/05 06:00 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
dmcdd Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 26
Aden,

Geeze Louise you're Ex sounds like a real looser! I'm happy for you that you're one of the things she lost \:\) .


You hit the bullseye when you recommend that partners and family do some serious self-examination. I think it's human nature to get on a track and stay there, rolling along comfortably figuring if the direction we're going was good when we headed out, it's still good now. Even if we see a bridge out ahead, it's really tough to change direction.

I've been told that it's normal to expect those around us to treat us well, or at the very least to not hurt us. I've been told that healthy people strive to be better tomorrow than they are today. Survivors need partners to serve as examples of healthy behavior - and make sure they don't get sucked down with us.


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#63964 - 01/06/05 08:53 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
reesersgrl Offline
Member

Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 37
Loc: ny
My only intention, Aden, was to give him love, to let him know that he is loved and cared for. I have listened and I have tried not to judge. I definitely have a better understanding of some things now, because I have made it a priority to inform myself. I think the partners who are here have only the best intentions and selfish reasons arent a part of that.


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#63965 - 01/06/05 09:23 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Aden,

This is what I have to say, I hope you will try to understand it.

Your previous marriage sounds pretty terrible. I'm sorry you had to experience it, and sorry that there were children involved in it.

A forum like this, meant to foster open discussion about the tricky work of relationships with survivors, works best when people in all kinds of situations can honestly speak from their own experiences.

It does not work as well when you come in and judge others, or paint them all with the same brush, based on those experiences.

Quote:
But the point is, she never had a clue that she was unable to see the other side of things
I'd suggest to you that the entire point of this forum is for partners to educate themselves and seek answers with open minds, because they have already recognized that there is more going on than what they can see.

None of us found this site because we were looking for a board to condemn and complain about the survivors in our lives. Partners find this site the same way most everyone else does-- looking for answers and information about male sexual abuse. And if any came here thinking that they had the whole picture, I'm sure they didn't think it for long-- a quick overview of the articles here or the survivors board is enough to prove that.

You and I, like everyone else on this forum, can only speak from our own knowledge and experience. My experiences in life and reading this forum have validated quite a few of the points you're making-- there are some who would demand from others and call it a gift. There are some who would rather not examine their selfish motivations for overinvolvement in another's healing. There are some who'd rather not realize their imperfections. I am not at all offended that you would point out when something you read here resonates with your own negative experiences, and offer truth based on that.

But as a partner who has done an awful lot of the self-examination and forgiveness that you're suggesting is so uncommon among spouses, I was offended that you assumed so much-- or maybe so little-- of the friends and family in this community. At least that was the impression I, and some other members here, got from your first two posts in this thread.

If you believe, from your experiences and what you've read here, that you have helpful truth to offer the friends and family of survivors, why not begin by telling us what about the posts here, or your own situation, makes you offer that advice?

Instead you came into a forum of hurting, loving people, made statements that devalued our hurt and our love, suggested that all of us expect too much of the survivors in our lives, and then stated your expectations of us, which I have to say, are not realistic, if you read the posts in this forum.

Did you truly expect to be attacked for speaking from your own past hurt, or for making honest and respectful suggestions about how we can help our loved ones?

What expectations do you have, exactly, when you come into a forum full of posts that demonstrate a rather high level of self-examination, forgiveness, hope, strength, and open-minded love-- and then address the entire community as if we have no grasp on these concepts?

Your opening comments here made more than one partner of a survivor uncomfortable, not because we saw an uncomfortable part of ourselves in them, but because we don't like to have unfair demands presented to us in the form of assistance either.

Aden, I don't want my words to deter you from offering specific, respectful observations about what you read here. I'm glad you were able to share your truths despite your fear, and I'm not suggesting that you not share them because they are hard to accept. I am just asking you to take a look at how the first two posts in this thread were offensive to some of us here.

I'd like to ask you your own question: What is it you want from the friends and family here? And why? What are the motives behind the help you offer?

I'm neither a saint nor a judge, and I'd like to give you what you want from us, if I can.

SAR


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#63966 - 01/10/05 04:01 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
I'm a survivor but I can't make it through all the posts. They are so incredibly good and touching, I sit here with tears in my eyes.

I want to learn how to trust. I want to learn to respect women. I want to learn to respect myself.

I couldn't give a hot hoot about eloquence. This board has been a godsend. When I first started reading info on this site it scared me because I was looking in a mirror. It was like you knew my life history.

What did I do to deserve all the terrible things done to my mind, my body, my soul? I was a good boy when I was 11. I really was, but I got used and used and used.

I sit here crying.

To all spouses of a survivor, you must understand that you are a heavenly angel sent to take the misery out of our lives. You can't even begin to imagine the hell we live in. There were things my wife wishes I hadn't told her.

It takes a lot of courage to post here. At 16, my first T abused me. I think he called it sex therapy and I was his whore for 3 years.

Three very long years.

I lost my soul when I was 14. I felt it leave my body.

There are many things I've never told a T. There are many things I've never told my wife. There are many things I've never told myself.

I would like to love, honor, and respect my parents, but when I was 13 I told them about the rampant sexual abuse in our dorm and by the rabbis and their response was there was nothing they could do! How can parents do something like that? Now they say that was so long ago. To this day they have never even apologized. I begged them to just say they were sorry but they refused. There was nothing they could do!

So the next time any of you family members complain how difficult we are, whether in a post or to your spouse, or just to yourself, just try to imagine what it feels like to be raped. The physical pain alone.

If you go to church or synagogue or whatever, go over to your spiritual leader and while he is talking to you imagine that he is fondling you in the church? Well, that is what happened to me. I was a teenager.

Just a little food for thought.

I do not mind if people PM me. I only ask that you never, ever judge me.


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#63967 - 01/10/05 05:53 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kakdla

Quote:
and I was his whore for 3 years.
No, you were NEVER his 'whore' - he was the whore, which my dictionary describes as "an offensive term for somebody regarded as sexually indiscriminate".

He was the one 'indiscriminate' one, as indeed were all your abusers.
Remember exactly how powerless you were and how powerful they were. Were you being 'indiscriminate'?

No.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63968 - 01/10/05 06:41 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
Kakdla,

Thank you for bringing this important message forward to our helpmates. Your openness is courageous. It doesn’t SEEM like we know you personally. We DO know you personally. And welcome you as part of our selves.

Aden


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#63969 - 01/12/05 02:47 AM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
TRIGGER WARNING

I wish I knew you or someone like you when I was a teenager. I started going to xxx movies when I was 16. It mirrored my life and I mirrored its life. In part of one of the movies I saw, there was a scene where people went to see a snuff film. I saw a bound and ball-gagged woman stabbed to death.

I saw movies made to look like real life, not actors, where women were raped. It showed women first fighting then enjoying the rape.

I never fought and I never enjoyed.

Where I grew up it was ok to have sex with a boy but forbidden to even look at a girl. Women were considered impure.

If I upset anyone, I do apologize, but I have to speak.

K


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#63970 - 01/12/05 02:38 PM Re: Incursion into hostile ground...
KAKDLA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 34
Thank you for not deleting my post.

K


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