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#63492 - 12/19/04 09:08 PM DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
My fiancee recently told me about his brother "convincing him" to have sex when he was 8 and the brother was 15. This all came out because he wanted to deal with sex addiction (see help me help him topic - I tried to explain a lot there). I have forgiven him for any acting out he has done, and we are starting with a clean slate, the only thing I will not tolerate is lies. The truth, no matter how much it hurts, is better than a lie. He has lied for so long, and never told anyone these secrets he has kept inside for 25 years. I am trying very hard to understand and he knows that I love him more than anyone ever has and I will never hurt him. He has seen this based on my relationships with ex- husband and ex-boyfriend. He started therapy, and I told him that if we were going to have a clean slate, it had to be really clean. He told me a lot of things that were hard to hear, but I continued to hug him and tell him I wouldn't judge him, and he needs help, I'd stand beside him through this...And then the bombshell. He has told me he has had inappropriate behavior with my 8 year old daughter. She is a "sprited child" they say she's ADHD/ODD, I say shes just super smart and BAD (just a joke). I have gotten her into a special pyschotherapy class in school, etc. This was before I even met him. She has alwyas been very curious about sexuality, and I taught her about good and bad touch from the time she cold talk. But he told me that he was afraid to be alone with her. He would be in bed naked (while I was working) watching TV and she would come into the bed with him. He would cuddle her with one arm while masterbating under the covers until climax with the other. He says he has never touched her inappropriately, but he knows what he did crossed the line. Right now she is living with her Dad (long story)until the end of the school year. He has started therapy and seems sincere about wanting to change. The fact that he told me these things, and answered all my questions so honestly although it was so hard for him, makes me think he really wants to change and stop the chain of abuse. He said he has never touched another child, mostly his acting out has been with prostitutes, or other women that he otherwise wouldn't want to be seen in public with or have a conversation with. He wants to talk to my daughter when she come home and explain that what he did was wrong, and make sure she understands fully about abuse so it won't happen to her. What do I do? I have let him open his heart like he never has, told him I would stand by him, but I have to protect my child. Can he change enough to be trusted alone with her? Please, Please, Please give me some advice. My girls come first, hands down, but if it is possible to be there for him too, I would hate to hurt him. He has attempted suicide before and had a nervous breakdown before he met me. I don't want to hurt him, I love him and I know he is acting this way because he was victimized, but I can't let anyone hurt my kids. What do I do?

_________________________
Sandy

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#63493 - 12/19/04 09:42 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Sandy, this really is tough. Firstly, the protection of your daughter comes first in this, it is vitally important that he does not come into contact with her whilst alone.

I know that the witnessing of sexual acts by young kids, can make them act out, and sexualise them at an early age.

I don't know how much it affects her regarding behavioural problems, but it certainly could be a cause.

I would not let her even see him until you have had a chance to really talk to her. I would meet her in a safe environment and tell her that you fully trust her.

Ask her? How she feels about him?
Does she feel safe in her World, or would she rather you take him out of the equation.

In the end, it is yourself, and your child that needs protecting. SA, can cause very serious problems in kids. You should also be aware, that kids are really good at masking out even the most evil of things that can happen.

They can mask out, because they don't want to see you unhappy, or be seen as the cause of the problem, and YES, they can easily see themselves as the PROBLEM.

Don't forget, you are talking about child logic, it sounds illogical to us, unless we really understand it from a child's Worldly view, where it really does seem so logical.

If you need help, I am always here, but it is a dilemma, but keep yourselves safe,

take care,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#63494 - 12/19/04 11:00 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks for your response, and I know you are right, he can't be alone with her now. We live in another state and are going to see her for the holidays. It is a very long story, but basically my ex kidnapped my kids, I had to find them, they were already in school by that time and so he got temporary custody while we go through the divorce. We were separated 3 years but never had any paperwork and had always been amicable...but thats getting way off the point. She is happy and excited that he is coming. In fact, she told me once that she was going to marry him. She has always had behavior problems, from way before I even met him. And she has always been very sexually curious. What I need to know is can he change enough to ever be trusted again? If I talk to her, and then we talk to her together and I will get her in therapy, I think she will be okay. This happened on 4 - 5 occassions I just found out. He is being so honest and it is so hard for him. It takes 5 minutes for him to complete a sentence it is so hard. He says he wants help. I know he will never truly love anyone until he can love himself, but am I putting her too much at risk to let her come home. She can continue to live with her dad, but I want them (7&9 now) back so bad. It would be 6 months of him being in therapy and attending meetings before she would come home. Is that enough time, or do I start preparing to leave him somehow? It is hard for me to even understand how I can continue to love him with the things that he has done, but I guess I get the codependant award there. I know he does these things because his brother raped him. There is no "convincing" an 8 year old to have anal sex, and just because it didn't hurt and he got sexually excited doesn't make it any better. And someone probably did it to his brother. He is, for the first time ever, letting someone in and asking for help - can he heal enough to ever be trusted not to hurt her?

_________________________
Sandy

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#63495 - 12/20/04 12:22 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Hi,
You should do a search on ways children are groomed to be abused. Most of the time it's not just something that happens out of the blue, it takes time to get the child convenced this is what they want or not to tell.

I would say if he has admitted to masterbating himself while hold your daughter, that simply not leaving them alone is good enough. They shouldnt be alowed to live in the same house PEROID. Not sure about the laws in your state, but you may want to look up "Failure to Protect" and see what it says. If you know he has done this and still let him have access to the child you could go to jail with him, I would think.


Also, just to be blunt here. What is more important to you? Living with the man or protecting your kids.

We have some pro's here who deal with perp's and they may chim in as to answer some of your "is it enough time" questions.

Best of luck.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63496 - 12/20/04 12:22 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sandy
Isn't that the hardest question you're ever likely to come across?

You and your girls must come first, that's essential given the facts he's disclosed to you already.
So what you choose to do must be your choice, and that choice must surely include everything from reporting him to the authorities to trusting him, and everything inbetween.

The positive aspect has to be the fact that he is disclosing, this must indicate a desire to change his life.
My acting out was with other men, but I believe the process that makes us act out is the same whatever we do, from viewing porn to acting out with children.

I have always said that the process for me was unstoppable.
I would have periods when the though of performing sex acts with total strangers sickened me, then something 'clicked' inside and the process kicked in. I would then plan and fantasize for days on end, winding myself up into a frenzy that only I knew about and I would go and act out.
By that time I was high on adrenline, so high that I was basically out of control. I've also said before that the rush from the fantasy / planning was better than cocaine, and it was.
I had it down to a fine art, the rush would peak when I knew I was going to be in a public toilet where I was likely to meet someone cruising for sex. By this stage I had no control whatsoever and would have given anyone a bj, which I did. There was no question of liking the other man, hell I didn't even ask their names. Precautions and the risk of STD's were of no importance.
That was the power of my drive to act out.

The reason I tell you this is to hopefully make you aware of how difficult it is to overcome.
I haven't had sex as part of acting out since early 1998, but that doesn't mean that I'm 'cured'.
I know that up until know if the opportunity has arisen I have resisted, and the opportunities have arisen because I travel around in my job and am forced to use public toilets and I've had the 'come-on' from men sometimes.
But I also know that I haven't had one of those encounters when I've been wound up. Would I resist then?
I think I would now.

For two reasons, firstly I know the reasons behind my original acting out - my abuse. And the fact that I was trying to re-create the sex acts I did as a boy under my terms as an adult. That DOESN'T WORK.
We can't regain control of what has past in that way, we can regain control of our present however.

And that's the second reason that I believe stops me from acting out.
Although there are still triggers that send me into the cycle of fantasy and winding myself up I recognise many of them and either avoid them or deal with them.
I know that if I'm alone for long periods that I can start the cycle. So I arrange my life as best I can to avoid lonely situations, and if I can't that I have stratergies that I use. If my wife goes shopping I 'will' vacuum the carpets, I 'will' clean the shower, and if that doesn't work then I masturbate to reduce the sexual element of the cycle.

I have dealt with all this in 1 to 1 therapy and still do so in group therapy, and my wife knows exactly what I've done in the past and what I still struggle with.
My experience is that the cycle that leads us to act out is possibly the hardest thing I have had to deal with.
And that's down to its complexity, I still don't recognise all of my triggers, and some days my defences are weaker than others. Not weak enough to go all the way in my acting out again, I'm as certain of that as it's possible to be, and as time goes on and I keep working it does become easier to overcome - and less frequent.

But it's hard knowing that it's still there and it's down to me, and only me, to keep the lid on it.
My wife would throw me out if I did go all the way again, that's a fact. But she trusts me and I respect that huge level of trust - and love.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63497 - 12/20/04 12:23 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Michael Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Claremore, Oklahoma
I can only speak from my experience, but there is no way he should ever be alone with your daughter.

My weakness was other women, not children or men. My therapist explained that it was the excitement of doing something unacceptable sexually because of the SA when I was young (in my case, having affairs; before marriage it was many, many partners) then I would feel extreme guilt and remorse BUT not enough to stop. It was like I was out of control of my actions. Only until my wife understood that I needed her to be my strength was I able to come to grips with my behaviour. The effects of SA can be so complex!

THE ONE THING I KNOW IS THAT I CAN NEVER PUT MYSELF IN A TEMPTATION SITUATION WITHOUT MY WIFE BEING BESIDE ME!

That is why you must not let your daughter be in a situation where he would be tempted to repeat this act. 4-5 TIMES IS 4-5 TIMES TOO MANY!

I know this seems like rambling, but I don't know any other way to explain it. I was abused for several years from 10 to 14 years of age by 2 different men and it took 40 years for me to seek help.

PROTECT YOUR DAUGHTER FIRST!!

_________________________
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." - Will Rogers

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#63498 - 12/20/04 12:26 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
SandyLee,
Reading your posting has me feeling twisted inside, I am sure you are far beyond feeling twisted inside.
I may be harsh sounding here, but trying to balance having a spouse with a sex addiction who has "crossed the line" (sexually abused an 8 yr old) seems to be impossible to judge at this time.
The ONLY thing that can be judged and decision made on, is whether you choose to place your child in a dangerous situation or not. If any information comes out about how he abused your 8 yr old daughter during the divorce proceedings you can bet your last dollar that YOU wont have custody of her and visitations would most likely be supervised by the court.
I understand your empathy for your current partner, as my own separated partner is also a sex addict. My own crossed the line with a 20 yr old in front of our 20 yr old daughters. Believe me it has been pure hell these last 3 yrs. The hardest thing I had to ask was of my daughters "was he ever sexually inappropriate with you" -- and lord all mighty did I get a screaming at from them. But it was a hard question and I HAD to ask it, then HE called me and screamed at me for asking it - only later to apologize sincerely that it was a question that HAD to be asked.
Sex addiction is NOT an excuse nor a reason in anyway to be sexually inappropriate with a child of ANY age!
Are you willing to sacrifice your child for this man? Are you willing to be on constant alert unable to sleep, or run to the store without breaking into knots in your stomach, sweats and nightmares?
Your CHILD WAS VIOLATED!!
My suggestion no matter how much you think or love or care about this partner you have now, no matter how much you "understand" why his behavior is what it is and "how truthful" he seems to be is that you find a SAFE place for YOU and your child.
Seek and find a therapist who specializes in sexual abuse , sex addiction and one for your daughter also. She may be mis diagnosed if she has "always been very curious about sexuality".
Is that normal for her age and maturity level? Find or ask a child psychologist to know for sure.
I am sorry to sound so harsh -- but please listen to your CHILD FIRST... you are with a man who ADMITTED that he acted out and abused your daughter 4 - 5 times.... it only takes ONCE to do the damage of a lifetime.
I dont have all the answers -- I just want you to really think hard on this one, dont make this decision about YOU or your current Partner make this decision strictly about your DAUGHTER!
Yes, I am biased as a survivor of abuse myself, a partner to a sex addict, as a mother and someone who cares about the WHOLE picture.
Much Concern, Sammy


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#63499 - 12/20/04 12:38 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA
Sandy,

I have to agree with what the guys are saying here.

The first thing you should do is report this to the proper authorities. Abuse and acting out behaviors thrive in secrecy, the more people who are aware of what's going on, the harder it is for the behavior to continue. Your daughter certainly needs to talk about this with a professional before she talks to your fiancee about it.

Children can love and care for the people who abuse them. It is still abuse, and it still causes incredible damage and confusion.

Your daughter should get some therapy, and you need to give her space to talk about what she needs and wants. Whether or not you can all be a part of the same family has more to do with what she feels best with, than with how much you can trust him after therapy. And I agree with ste, you are her mother and if she senses that you want something bad enough, it's very likely that she'll suppress her feelings and go along with what you want.


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#63500 - 12/20/04 03:46 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Sandylee:
As a therapist who has worked with sexual abusers and male survivors for over 25 years, I am completely convinced that your friend has to deal with his behaviors, feelings and thoughts with a professional who is experienced in treating sexual abusers.

No doubt about it.

To echo the statements of survivors and partners here, you have no choice between him and your children. Kids become sexualized by the behaviors and grooming of adults/adolescents who are setting them up for future sexual abuse. Your daughter was exposed to sexual behaviors by your friend. He crossed over the line when his thoughts/feelings translated into a behavior (masturbating in front of her). No doubt.

He needs the right kind of professional help. If you want to pm me for a therapist who is experienced in this area, let me know where your are located and I will give you the name/phone number of the closest sex abuser specialist around you.

Ken Singer


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#63501 - 12/20/04 04:17 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thank each and every one of you for your advice and caring enough to respond. He will not be alone with her, or even really see her again after we visit for x-mas until June at the earliest. He has already begun therapy and I hope to stand by him long enough to help him get his feet on the ground. I know he is repeating what was done to him, and it was wrong, no grey area here. But her problems began years before I met him, and she is currently in therapy, and I will make sure the therapist knows everything. I will protect her first no matter what.

I do believe that knowing his friends and family and that he has been honest with me after so many years of lies and secrets that he wants to change. I told him he needed to clean the slate, and he did, no holding back - and I am sure some of you understand how painful that has been for him. I know that I need to get help because I feel guilty that I did not give her enough attention (I had been very sick for almost 2 years, right after her father left us), and believe that she was acting out against me. I feel so worthless because being a mom was supposed to be the most important job I had, and I feel like I have failed her.

I am holding on by a thread right now trying to figure out what to do...not to mention I have no job, no money and nowhere to go if I left him right now. He has been trying to help me get my life back together, and I think I am on my way - I can see the light, but it might be a train.

I want to see him get help, and if standing by him will help that process, I think I want to try. He has felt finally that he can open up to someone about his abuse and wants to change, and if I leave him to go to some kind of shelter, what will happen to him? I know some of you don't care because he has hurt a child. But I can't change the past, only the future. I am so sick about this right now, I can hardly breathe. But I appreciate every one of you responding, whether you support me or not, believe me, it helps.

_________________________
Sandy

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#63502 - 12/20/04 04:48 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Sandylee,
I do not envey you right now. It really must feel as if your stuck in the middle. The love of your child and how much you want to help this man. Yes, I'll admitt I do not understand some of what you are saying. I hear a lot different from the way you are meaning (not going to get into what I hear, it would probley be hatful and really not much use to you at this point). The biggest thing is to please, please, please protect your daughter. If you asked the men on this board how many of them believe/know there parent/parents knew about the abuse, then ask them what kind of feelings they have to the none abusing parent because they failed to protect them.

As for the t he is seeing. As Ken pointed out you need one who has some experence in dealing with sexual perp's. So please find out from Ken on this matter.

Best of luck to you and your daughter.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63503 - 12/20/04 09:27 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks James, for at least trying to understand what I may be going through. He is a veteran, and so they have him with a specialist in Post Tramatic Stress which I guess incorporates victims of abuse.

Also, I want to note, and please know I am not trying to justify his actions in any way shape of form, but I am not sure if she was even aware of what was happening. He would be in our big king size bed with down comforter under covers and she would be laysing beside him (on his arm) over the covers watching TV. I know that doesn't make his actions any more excuseable - he crossed the line, like I said, no grey area her, but he did not expose himself to her visually. I think if he had outright touched her or allowed her to see him I would have no grey area within my own thought of what to do, I would go straight to the police. But I told him during his admission, he could tell me anything...even that he had sex with her, and I would help him. That was a lie on my part I guess to make him feel comfortable enough for him to tell me.

This is a child that is SO smart - seriously her IQ is genius - in 2nd grade she was reading at a 5th grade level, and we began having trouble with her from the time she was almost 3. She spoke full sentences since the time she was 18 months, and I have literally been talking to her about good and bad touch since then - I had a step sister who was molested and wasn't going to ever let anyone hurt my girls! I am considering at this point allowing her father to keep custody, because I may not deserve it. I will never be that parent that looked the other way and will discuss with her all of her feelings towards him in therapy. There would never be a choice to be made, it would always be clear that she comes first.

I am having a real problem now just knowing he could have any sexual feelings around her. He swears he has never had these feeling around another child, and I have been so forgiving at this point, I don't think he has any reason to lie. Its like the past week has been an onion, slowly peeling the layers, but we have finally come to the end. He says he wants help, that he wants us to both talk to her (after I have talked with her privately) to explain that anything he may have done inappropriately was wrong and to reinforce good and bad touch. You know it is like on Oprah's show, how they show the kidnapper not getting the kid because they have been trained not to go with the man that lost his dog, but getting taken because the man says he lost his bunny. I told her "this is your vagina. It is private. No one is to touch it, except for you and that should be done when you are alone. If anyone ever tries to touch it or you anywhere that makes you feel weird, you must tell Mommy or a teacher or a policeman, and don't ever let anyone tell you you have to keep a secret from me. Then whatever they are doing is wrong and you must tell." Now, that being said, what he did falls outside of those lines of "training" that I consistently reinforced. He didn't touch her, and she may or may not have even been aware of what happened, and he never told her not to tell me. He thought she didn't know, but I know how smart she is and fear that she had to have an idea that something sexual was happening.

He says he desperately wants help. He for the first time in 25 years can say out loud that his brother raped him, that he is an incest survivor, and watching the words come out of his mouth were like watching molasses being poured. I am an open, get it on the table deal with it rather than bottle it up inside person. My own therapist (past) said I was actually very healthy because I cried so much and discussed my feelings so openly. He is the opposite, and I know how much it has taken for him to start therapy, and we have discussed this it seems non stop for the past week, each day getting deeper into his secrets. What I am now worried about is can he even tell his therapist about his actions? If what he did is a crime, then does the doctor have a responsibility to report it? I guess I am more worried about my daughter and my own sanity in this respect and what it would do to have all of this be public and in the court system. I have seen the trama they have already been through with our divorce after what their dad has put them through (I desperately have tried to make an agreement with him), and I can't put her through any more. Does anyone know what the laws are about this? Someone replied earlier and said I could go to jail just knowing and not reporting it. I am now not only dealing with a SA surving sex addict, but fearing for my own life and stability. I am not sure of anything right now, minute to minute I am anxiety ridden, now on my third not of no sleep because of this stress. The only thing I know for sure is that I have to find a way to put my life on track and make sure I do the best by my kids. How to do that, I am unsure. Anything else seems blurry to me at best if not totally spinning out of control. I have spent my whole life taking care of people and there is no one now who can take care of me. I guess that is why I am so grateful to have your responses. It has allowed me to get this out and feel like someone is listening.

_________________________
Sandy

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#63504 - 12/20/04 10:01 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Sandy,
I was the one who said you "might" go to jail. What I was meaning is now that you know he has crossed one with your daughter if you let him have access to her and he crosses a different one the D.A. could see your actions as failure to protect. Not saying he would just feel he could thats all. I am no lawyer by any means.

As to your question about if he tells his t about this. There are only 3 reasons a t can repeat anything said in a session
1. You are going to hurt yourself.
2. You are going to hurt someone else.
3. You admit to abuseing a child/or if a child being abuse by someone.

With that said. I am not sure that he did break any laws. I would think "yes", but you can ask on this board of some and they will well you the laws do not always make since. However, seems to me that if he is truthful in the fact he wants help then he has to be open and honest with his t no matter what "may" happen because of it. There is a reason they make perp's take lie detector test all the time (sometimes once a week) because they lie not only to everyone else but to themselves as well. So the only real way his t would be able to help him is for him to be open and honest with him.

As for his t dealing in PTSD, thats great. I am sure his rape have given him that. But PTSD is different from the things you have talked about here. I would bet to say just about all of the guys on this board have that from there abuse. But have not crossed that line. That is a whole different ballgame. It's like compairing apples to oranges. The mind set if different. I would say to at least email Ken, get a name and call it and go from there. Just because you get a name and number doesnt mean you have to use that person. Ken has more years than even he would probley be proud to admit in dealing with men who have crossed that line. And he has contacts all over to help men who truly want to change this part of there life.

As for her not knowing. Ok she may not have known 'what he was doing', but being a guy and someone who fights with this adiction everyday of my life (selfpleasure) I can tell you that even on a high priced king size bed it's hard to hide the fact that the blanket is moving and bed is moving. She may not be aware that he was playing with that part of his body, but I would bet a dozzen donuts she knows somethig is up.

If you both are goign to talk to her, I would think having her t there would be the best way to do this. (one of the pro's here may have a better idea) But if she does understand what he did reinforcing good touch bad touch isnt enough to be honest. You have to get her to understand that "It's not her fault."

I do feel for you, realy I do. Because of my past abuse to me (this is just me here) there is not "gray" area when it comes to it. On the home page there is a deintion (sorry it's late) of what sexual abuse is (I believe Ken wrote this for us) one of the lines are this: "It is sexually abusive when the victim is unaware of the abuse (such as being watched while bathing, using the bathroom, changing, etc.), as well as when the victim is sleeping, unconscious, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or is too young, nave, or able to understand what is going on." See not much gray area.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with all this while you are also dealing with a divorce and everything else you have said. As I stated I do not envey you this night.

Best of luck to you and your daughter

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63505 - 12/20/04 10:29 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
James,

Thanks again for your reply. You have no idea how much you all are helping me through this right now. I have contacted Ken and will not tell him that he could go to jail if he tells his t. He is already taking an antidepressant and an antipsychotic med from the VA psychiatrist. He saw him this past Monday.

I know you are right, she had to have known something was not right. And I know there are no grey areas, which is why I am taking this so seriously and asking for help and advice.

Am I a terrible person for wanting to help him since he has crossed that line? I honestly don't know right now. I have always thought of myself as good, and have been the person everyone counts on for help, but yet I have no one I can count on. Is it possible to still love him because I see him as the 8 year old boy who was so violated and needs help? Or does that betray my daughter? I am so confused right now.

Thank you again for your response. It really means a lot to me.

_________________________
Sandy

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#63506 - 12/20/04 10:49 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
O boy,
this is real big problem.

Sandy your daughter is already abused. The thing is how to make consequences smaller. I would suggest that you have to talk for advice with good child specialist. Your daughter mustn't blame herself for this. You have to be very, very gentle with her about this situation. She also had to trust you and be ready to tell you everything in case of future abuse.
Be aware that she DIDN'T tell you anything about these events!
I would choose the best possible counsellor for evaluation does she need therapy or not.

In relation to your fianc, it is very good thing that he told you this, no matter how bad it is. The problem is that he probably could not avoid thrills during contacts with your daughter in future.
He said that she came in bed.
He should immediately knew that he was naked (which is very impropriate with kid in bed). He is an adult and he should react on proper way but he didn't, why? Because he couldn't, he was too excited by this situation and he took advantage of it immediately.
And what would your daughter do next time when she would see him in bed or in some other situation like that?

Your daughter is child form divorced marriage, maybe she had urge for affection from adults which is making her to be perfect target for assaults by predators of all kind. Parents often are not aware how divorce is badly affecting children on long-term on many fields.

The big, big question is how much is he sexually attracted to children? I mean, to all children?

I do not know much about legal consequences in your country but I think that you have big problems with that matter also.

It is very good that you contacted Ken. Stay in touch with him.

I wish the best to you and your daughter,
Ivo


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#63507 - 12/20/04 11:45 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
James
forgive me, but I'm going to get real picky here.

Quote:
But PTSD is different from the things you have talked about here. I would bet to say just about all of the guys on this board have that from there abuse. But have not crossed that line. That is a whole different ballgame. It's like compairing apples to oranges. The mind set if different.
I agree 100% that many of us don't cross the line because we know it is wrong.
The line is in a different place for each of us with sexual addiction / acting out problems.
BUT, I believe the road to our personal lines are so similar they are barely indistinguishable.

When I read, or see on documentaries, interviews with perpetrators I also see the set of behaviours and thinking that drove me to act out.
I have a video in the draw alongside me here of the BBC series "The Hunt for Britains Paedophiles" which contains an interview with a serial perp.
It scares the crap out of me, every thing he says applies to me as well. The only difference is the ending, he abuses children - I abused myself.

Is that because of a concious decision on my part or a trick of nature?
I'd like to think it's my decision.

The point I'm making is that I believe many of here with sex addiction / acting out behaviours know the process only too well.
We know how difficult it is to curb these impulses.

Which makes Sandy's decision so hard.
I've thought about it some more since I replied last night, and I would have to say that he should never be left alone with children in the foreseeable future.
I know what the struggle can be like, and I also know that if I'm feeling depressed, anxious, stressed or in any number of negative emotional states then my resistance is lower.
A day christmas shopping in a huge mall on my own can bring me down to the extent that I had to get out of the place as quickly as I could, the fantasies were returning and my resistance was dropping.
But what about a huge emotional struggle such as the sudden death of a loved one? Would that send me acting out again? I just don't know, I am preparing myself for the worst situations as best I can, but who knows how I'll react?
A very close friend of mine is an alcoholic now, he won't even acknowledge me on the street as he stumbles along covered in vomit and dirt.
Less than 7 years ago he was a fashion concious, handsome man with a gorgeous partner, lovely home and a BMW. Now he's a bum.
What broke him? his father died.

He was what I would loosely call 'a normal guy' and emotional trauma, wrongly handled, had sent him off the rails. I could go as well, we all could.

So where's the level of trust for someone such as sandy?
Possibly, it could be higher because he's making a decision to get help and has acknowledged his dysfunctional behaviour, he does seem to be accepting responsibility for his actions. Which is what I see most guys who act out doing here at MS.

It's a difficult and complex issue, and ultimately unknown if we will repeat our acting out.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63508 - 12/20/04 02:48 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Sandylee:
The next step you can take is to call StopItNow!, an organization that works to prevent sexual abuse by helping the family and the potential perpetrator get help. They have a list of therapists who are experienced in sexual abuse treatment.

You can reach them at 1 888 PREVENT. Call today and speak with them.

Ken


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#63509 - 12/20/04 08:48 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
To everyone that has been so kind to care enough to give me your opinion:

After a few hours of sleep (finally after 3 days of stress induced insomnia), and re-reading everything you all have told me, I have come to the following conclusions although I still have many questions:

First, there is no question that my daughter comes first. She is in a safe place, is already in therapy and I will do everything possible to help her.

Second, I believe that he can get help because he wants it. The fact that he has been so honest, as painful as I know it has been, and doesn't ever want to hurt my daughter or me again makes me believe that if he can really follow through dealing with his own incest, one day, he will be okay. I cannot ever leave my daughter alone with him again, I know that. I know that I can not marry him and make a life with him. But I need to know if it is wrong for me to stay with him through the beginning of this process. I think that if I betray him now, he will do something to himself. I still look at him and see that 8 year old boy being victimized, and I need to know if it is wrong for me to still care about someone who could do this? I could accept all the other acting out, certainly not happy about it, but weather it was a friend of mine, a stranger, or a prostitute, it was an adult. I told him at the beginning of this process of admissions that I could deal with anything but lies, and now I think I would be lying to myself and him if I turned my back on him now.

Last, is figuring out how to move on with my own life. If you don't agree with me staying with him, please help me figure out how to leave. I have no job, no car, no money, and no one to turn to. I am recovering from health issues that have put me in the position of not working, and now that I can work, I am having trouble finding a job. I have 10 years of management experience, can't find a management job, although I put out 20+ resumes every day, and have been willing to take any job for any amount of money only to be told I am overqualified, and they don't want to train someone who will not stay, etc. I am going to school from January until March and hae been gauranteed a job when I complete this course, but I don't know what to do until then. If you believe I need to sever all ties to him, then please help me with some advice as to organizations or anyone that can help me have a place to live for the next 3 months. Otherwise, I can stay with him, continue to be his friend, but not his fiancee and get on my feet knowing my daughter is safe. We are together just about 24/7 lately, since he doesn't want to be alone since I guess that has been his trigger. He is already taking the medication prescribed last week - an antidepressent and an antipsychotic. I am not asking for a miracle cure, just some advice for myself. I know what to do for her, for him, but not for me. You have all been so helpful, I am hoping you can guide me, give me some words of wisdom, or at least pray for me.

Sandy

_________________________
Sandy

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#63510 - 12/21/04 12:55 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Enchantedlady Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 35
Sandy,

I feel for you really I do. You have to be the one to decide if you want to stay with your bf or not. I can see you are at a hard time and very emotional.

When I was 8 yrs old my mom had a boyfriend that I liked but yet didn't like, I was laying on a roll a way bed in the livingroom (that's what my mom slept on) when the bf layed down by me, he had only his underwear on. I felt very uncomfortable, I remember feeling him move behind me. I HATED the fact that my mom was with him I HATED my life alot at that time, in fact I was acting out. My mom thought it was because her and my dad divorced. I'm sure it was but my memories are about HATING that bf. I knew even then there was something not right about him laying by me.

I have some major trust issues when it comes to men, when I was 13 I was SA. My T tried to tell me that trust is a decision, I laughed and said yes I agree however I don't jumble everyone into a box of being untrustworthy. My Husband is also a survivor and we've been together for 6 yrs FINALLY the last 6 months I found out about the abuse and the lies are now understandable. However I don't trust him \:\(
Even though he has never touched my daughters I am cautious also.

Please take what everyone has said and really think about it.

_________________________
Namaste
The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you'

Hebrews 13:5 Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you

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#63511 - 12/21/04 01:21 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sandy
Quote:
I could accept all the other acting out, certainly not happy about it, but weather it was a friend of mine, a stranger, or a prostitute, it was an adult.
If you truly feel like this, NEVER tell him.
That would be giving permission to 'do this much' and the last thing we need is permission!
If I was given an inch I would take a mile.

My wife and I have established boundaries between us. It was difficult for me, but it had to be done.
Some people might say that strict boundaries are impossible to keep and encourage us to revert to our lying and cheating once again, which is a good point.
But we also sorted out that if I crossed our agreed boundaries it would be discussed rather than punished.

That way I don't fear ( much :rolleyes: ) telling her that I have crossed a boundary or am struggling to keep inside them.
These days 'my boundaries' are much lower than they were afew years ago, it's like setting realistic targets. So if I look at porn tonight before going to bed I would tell her, probably tomorrow night. and I'd get a mixture of telling off and support.

It's important that we have a structure of sorts.
It doesn't have to be rigid and inflexible, but if we don't have goals and boundaries to govern our dysfunctional behaviors we'll find it easier to carry on as before.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63512 - 12/21/04 01:43 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Dave,

I did not tell him what I could or could not accept other than I could not accept lies. As far as boundries, I don't know if, when, or how we will figure that out.

I guess what is tearing me up so much right now is not being able to answer: Am I a terrible mother/person for being able to still love him knowing what I know now?

Sandy

_________________________
Sandy

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#63513 - 12/21/04 05:22 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Good luck. Not sure what else to say, your daughter is safe. Thats number one, and you see that and understand that. As for staying or going, well to be honest thats something you have to figure out on your own. No matter what we think or dont think. One of the things I had to learn is that I have controll over my life and the direction it takes. It's not something anyone could tell me or teach me. So best of luck.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63514 - 12/21/04 07:53 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Wifey1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 380
Sandylee,
in the past few postings of yours I've read your question "am I a terrible mother?" -- for loving this man and my daughter.
a tension of opposites. I am in no way able to judge a person by their thoughts feelings and actions. I do know tho, that you are responding above normal for a very abnormal situation.
MY opinion only -- the reason I say "above normal" is that you are working and seeking answers to some very very hard questions.
I can only speak for myself, but have read many of the postings on here where "mothers" (my own hubbys mom also) ignored and did nothing to protect their children when they saw with their own eyes (mine included) or took an active role in abusing their children right along with their abusers.
A bad mom in my opinion, does not seek the help that you have been seeking --- you are in a very hard spot, but there are avenues of rescue for you AND your daughter.
PLEASE PLEASE follow Ken Singer's advice and contact him via PM or the Stop It Now line, -- explain your situation wholly with not having a job, a home etc.... there are emergency shelters and help available for you. YOU ARE IN A DOMESTIC VIOLENT SITUATION -- no he may not hit you, he may be remorseful and very willing to talk to you about his troubles.... BUT, you are not qualified to take on or help him heal -- only HE and a Professional can do that. Yes, you can love him, but YOU cannot fix him.
Make YOU number one, so that you have energy and resources to help your most important person right now in your life....YOUR DAUGHTER.
I really dont mean to be so harsh --- but there IS emergency housing available and therapy available to you and your daughter.
Your boyfriend, must heal himself, if you are still wanting to continue a relationship to "support him" my suggestion is that you seek help from a qualified therapist who can help you assess the risk factors of staying attached or in contact with the boyfriend -- and if you are able to stay in contact WHAT, the rules would be for that contact and HOW that contact would take place.
Yes, it is possible to love someone who has crossed the line -- I myself still love my hubby tho we've been apart 3 years -- the rules have changed off and on for contact, and I can tell you this much ... and it is dangerous not only for your daughter but for yourself -- you admit to being very co dependant -- if you know this of yourself then you know that you can very easily let your emotions and your mind minimize the damage and danger around you --- WHAT PRICE ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY????
Take ACTION, contact Ken, Call the Hotline, and call for help , ask for referrals for help regarding your living situation --- It may seem like a huge step, and it is -- but NOT taking that step garruntees that you stay where you are and eventually minimizing in your mind "its not that bad" "she didnt see him naked" --- can easily cause you to NOT take any steps at all -- SACRIFICING your daughters safty that much more.
If the house was on fire you would grab that girl and run ..... I'm telling you -- YOU'RE HOUSE IS ON FIRE... call those numbers and get help!
May you be surrounded by strength, peace and help from the kindness of many.
Peace, Sammy


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#63515 - 12/21/04 09:49 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
ABridget Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 9
Loc: Vancouver, BC Canada
It seems everyone is being very sympathetic and giving you good advice, Sandy. I have to say I'm totally freaked out by what you say has happened to your daughter. It sounds like she's not even in your life for long stretches of time. You have to know that he was groping her in some way while he masturbated. Please, please call the 1-800-stopitnow people. I called when I was worried about my husband and my daughter and they gave me a lot of good advice.
forlauren (I had to change my screen name because my other computer caught a virus and I had to reregister).


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#63518 - 12/27/04 12:32 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5779
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
PredatorGame:
I deleted your post in the Survivor's Stories as it is not appropriate for that forum. You are getting some people upset, concerned and suspicious with your posts. You have not allowed anyone to pm you and your profile gives no info as to who you are, why you are here.

If you are here to get folks interested in your "guide", please be aware that we don't allow any commercial selling here.

Please pm me for further discussion.

Ken Singer
Board of Directors, MaleSurvivor


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