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#63502 - 12/20/04 04:48 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Sandylee,
I do not envey you right now. It really must feel as if your stuck in the middle. The love of your child and how much you want to help this man. Yes, I'll admitt I do not understand some of what you are saying. I hear a lot different from the way you are meaning (not going to get into what I hear, it would probley be hatful and really not much use to you at this point). The biggest thing is to please, please, please protect your daughter. If you asked the men on this board how many of them believe/know there parent/parents knew about the abuse, then ask them what kind of feelings they have to the none abusing parent because they failed to protect them.

As for the t he is seeing. As Ken pointed out you need one who has some experence in dealing with sexual perp's. So please find out from Ken on this matter.

Best of luck to you and your daughter.

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63503 - 12/20/04 09:27 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Thanks James, for at least trying to understand what I may be going through. He is a veteran, and so they have him with a specialist in Post Tramatic Stress which I guess incorporates victims of abuse.

Also, I want to note, and please know I am not trying to justify his actions in any way shape of form, but I am not sure if she was even aware of what was happening. He would be in our big king size bed with down comforter under covers and she would be laysing beside him (on his arm) over the covers watching TV. I know that doesn't make his actions any more excuseable - he crossed the line, like I said, no grey area her, but he did not expose himself to her visually. I think if he had outright touched her or allowed her to see him I would have no grey area within my own thought of what to do, I would go straight to the police. But I told him during his admission, he could tell me anything...even that he had sex with her, and I would help him. That was a lie on my part I guess to make him feel comfortable enough for him to tell me.

This is a child that is SO smart - seriously her IQ is genius - in 2nd grade she was reading at a 5th grade level, and we began having trouble with her from the time she was almost 3. She spoke full sentences since the time she was 18 months, and I have literally been talking to her about good and bad touch since then - I had a step sister who was molested and wasn't going to ever let anyone hurt my girls! I am considering at this point allowing her father to keep custody, because I may not deserve it. I will never be that parent that looked the other way and will discuss with her all of her feelings towards him in therapy. There would never be a choice to be made, it would always be clear that she comes first.

I am having a real problem now just knowing he could have any sexual feelings around her. He swears he has never had these feeling around another child, and I have been so forgiving at this point, I don't think he has any reason to lie. Its like the past week has been an onion, slowly peeling the layers, but we have finally come to the end. He says he wants help, that he wants us to both talk to her (after I have talked with her privately) to explain that anything he may have done inappropriately was wrong and to reinforce good and bad touch. You know it is like on Oprah's show, how they show the kidnapper not getting the kid because they have been trained not to go with the man that lost his dog, but getting taken because the man says he lost his bunny. I told her "this is your vagina. It is private. No one is to touch it, except for you and that should be done when you are alone. If anyone ever tries to touch it or you anywhere that makes you feel weird, you must tell Mommy or a teacher or a policeman, and don't ever let anyone tell you you have to keep a secret from me. Then whatever they are doing is wrong and you must tell." Now, that being said, what he did falls outside of those lines of "training" that I consistently reinforced. He didn't touch her, and she may or may not have even been aware of what happened, and he never told her not to tell me. He thought she didn't know, but I know how smart she is and fear that she had to have an idea that something sexual was happening.

He says he desperately wants help. He for the first time in 25 years can say out loud that his brother raped him, that he is an incest survivor, and watching the words come out of his mouth were like watching molasses being poured. I am an open, get it on the table deal with it rather than bottle it up inside person. My own therapist (past) said I was actually very healthy because I cried so much and discussed my feelings so openly. He is the opposite, and I know how much it has taken for him to start therapy, and we have discussed this it seems non stop for the past week, each day getting deeper into his secrets. What I am now worried about is can he even tell his therapist about his actions? If what he did is a crime, then does the doctor have a responsibility to report it? I guess I am more worried about my daughter and my own sanity in this respect and what it would do to have all of this be public and in the court system. I have seen the trama they have already been through with our divorce after what their dad has put them through (I desperately have tried to make an agreement with him), and I can't put her through any more. Does anyone know what the laws are about this? Someone replied earlier and said I could go to jail just knowing and not reporting it. I am now not only dealing with a SA surving sex addict, but fearing for my own life and stability. I am not sure of anything right now, minute to minute I am anxiety ridden, now on my third not of no sleep because of this stress. The only thing I know for sure is that I have to find a way to put my life on track and make sure I do the best by my kids. How to do that, I am unsure. Anything else seems blurry to me at best if not totally spinning out of control. I have spent my whole life taking care of people and there is no one now who can take care of me. I guess that is why I am so grateful to have your responses. It has allowed me to get this out and feel like someone is listening.

_________________________
Sandy

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#63504 - 12/20/04 10:01 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
James_dup1 Offline


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Sandy,
I was the one who said you "might" go to jail. What I was meaning is now that you know he has crossed one with your daughter if you let him have access to her and he crosses a different one the D.A. could see your actions as failure to protect. Not saying he would just feel he could thats all. I am no lawyer by any means.

As to your question about if he tells his t about this. There are only 3 reasons a t can repeat anything said in a session
1. You are going to hurt yourself.
2. You are going to hurt someone else.
3. You admit to abuseing a child/or if a child being abuse by someone.

With that said. I am not sure that he did break any laws. I would think "yes", but you can ask on this board of some and they will well you the laws do not always make since. However, seems to me that if he is truthful in the fact he wants help then he has to be open and honest with his t no matter what "may" happen because of it. There is a reason they make perp's take lie detector test all the time (sometimes once a week) because they lie not only to everyone else but to themselves as well. So the only real way his t would be able to help him is for him to be open and honest with him.

As for his t dealing in PTSD, thats great. I am sure his rape have given him that. But PTSD is different from the things you have talked about here. I would bet to say just about all of the guys on this board have that from there abuse. But have not crossed that line. That is a whole different ballgame. It's like compairing apples to oranges. The mind set if different. I would say to at least email Ken, get a name and call it and go from there. Just because you get a name and number doesnt mean you have to use that person. Ken has more years than even he would probley be proud to admit in dealing with men who have crossed that line. And he has contacts all over to help men who truly want to change this part of there life.

As for her not knowing. Ok she may not have known 'what he was doing', but being a guy and someone who fights with this adiction everyday of my life (selfpleasure) I can tell you that even on a high priced king size bed it's hard to hide the fact that the blanket is moving and bed is moving. She may not be aware that he was playing with that part of his body, but I would bet a dozzen donuts she knows somethig is up.

If you both are goign to talk to her, I would think having her t there would be the best way to do this. (one of the pro's here may have a better idea) But if she does understand what he did reinforcing good touch bad touch isnt enough to be honest. You have to get her to understand that "It's not her fault."

I do feel for you, realy I do. Because of my past abuse to me (this is just me here) there is not "gray" area when it comes to it. On the home page there is a deintion (sorry it's late) of what sexual abuse is (I believe Ken wrote this for us) one of the lines are this: "It is sexually abusive when the victim is unaware of the abuse (such as being watched while bathing, using the bathroom, changing, etc.), as well as when the victim is sleeping, unconscious, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or is too young, na´ve, or able to understand what is going on." See not much gray area.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with all this while you are also dealing with a divorce and everything else you have said. As I stated I do not envey you this night.

Best of luck to you and your daughter

James

_________________________
I have more issues than Rolling Stone!


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#63505 - 12/20/04 10:29 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
James,

Thanks again for your reply. You have no idea how much you all are helping me through this right now. I have contacted Ken and will not tell him that he could go to jail if he tells his t. He is already taking an antidepressant and an antipsychotic med from the VA psychiatrist. He saw him this past Monday.

I know you are right, she had to have known something was not right. And I know there are no grey areas, which is why I am taking this so seriously and asking for help and advice.

Am I a terrible person for wanting to help him since he has crossed that line? I honestly don't know right now. I have always thought of myself as good, and have been the person everyone counts on for help, but yet I have no one I can count on. Is it possible to still love him because I see him as the 8 year old boy who was so violated and needs help? Or does that betray my daughter? I am so confused right now.

Thank you again for your response. It really means a lot to me.

_________________________
Sandy

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#63506 - 12/20/04 10:49 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ivo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 267
Loc: Germany
O boy,
this is real big problem.

Sandy your daughter is already abused. The thing is how to make consequences smaller. I would suggest that you have to talk for advice with good child specialist. Your daughter mustn't blame herself for this. You have to be very, very gentle with her about this situation. She also had to trust you and be ready to tell you everything in case of future abuse.
Be aware that she DIDN'T tell you anything about these events!
I would choose the best possible counsellor for evaluation does she need therapy or not.

In relation to your fiancÚ, it is very good thing that he told you this, no matter how bad it is. The problem is that he probably could not avoid thrills during contacts with your daughter in future.
He said that she came in bed.
He should immediately knew that he was naked (which is very impropriate with kid in bed). He is an adult and he should react on proper way but he didn't, why? Because he couldn't, he was too excited by this situation and he took advantage of it immediately.
And what would your daughter do next time when she would see him in bed or in some other situation like that?

Your daughter is child form divorced marriage, maybe she had urge for affection from adults which is making her to be perfect target for assaults by predators of all kind. Parents often are not aware how divorce is badly affecting children on long-term on many fields.

The big, big question is how much is he sexually attracted to children? I mean, to all children?

I do not know much about legal consequences in your country but I think that you have big problems with that matter also.

It is very good that you contacted Ken. Stay in touch with him.

I wish the best to you and your daughter,
Ivo


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#63507 - 12/20/04 11:45 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
James
forgive me, but I'm going to get real picky here.

Quote:
But PTSD is different from the things you have talked about here. I would bet to say just about all of the guys on this board have that from there abuse. But have not crossed that line. That is a whole different ballgame. It's like compairing apples to oranges. The mind set if different.
I agree 100% that many of us don't cross the line because we know it is wrong.
The line is in a different place for each of us with sexual addiction / acting out problems.
BUT, I believe the road to our personal lines are so similar they are barely indistinguishable.

When I read, or see on documentaries, interviews with perpetrators I also see the set of behaviours and thinking that drove me to act out.
I have a video in the draw alongside me here of the BBC series "The Hunt for Britains Paedophiles" which contains an interview with a serial perp.
It scares the crap out of me, every thing he says applies to me as well. The only difference is the ending, he abuses children - I abused myself.

Is that because of a concious decision on my part or a trick of nature?
I'd like to think it's my decision.

The point I'm making is that I believe many of here with sex addiction / acting out behaviours know the process only too well.
We know how difficult it is to curb these impulses.

Which makes Sandy's decision so hard.
I've thought about it some more since I replied last night, and I would have to say that he should never be left alone with children in the foreseeable future.
I know what the struggle can be like, and I also know that if I'm feeling depressed, anxious, stressed or in any number of negative emotional states then my resistance is lower.
A day christmas shopping in a huge mall on my own can bring me down to the extent that I had to get out of the place as quickly as I could, the fantasies were returning and my resistance was dropping.
But what about a huge emotional struggle such as the sudden death of a loved one? Would that send me acting out again? I just don't know, I am preparing myself for the worst situations as best I can, but who knows how I'll react?
A very close friend of mine is an alcoholic now, he won't even acknowledge me on the street as he stumbles along covered in vomit and dirt.
Less than 7 years ago he was a fashion concious, handsome man with a gorgeous partner, lovely home and a BMW. Now he's a bum.
What broke him? his father died.

He was what I would loosely call 'a normal guy' and emotional trauma, wrongly handled, had sent him off the rails. I could go as well, we all could.

So where's the level of trust for someone such as sandy?
Possibly, it could be higher because he's making a decision to get help and has acknowledged his dysfunctional behaviour, he does seem to be accepting responsibility for his actions. Which is what I see most guys who act out doing here at MS.

It's a difficult and complex issue, and ultimately unknown if we will repeat our acting out.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#63508 - 12/20/04 02:48 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Sandylee:
The next step you can take is to call StopItNow!, an organization that works to prevent sexual abuse by helping the family and the potential perpetrator get help. They have a list of therapists who are experienced in sexual abuse treatment.

You can reach them at 1 888 PREVENT. Call today and speak with them.

Ken


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#63509 - 12/20/04 08:48 PM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
sandylee Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 11
Loc: Atlanta, GA
To everyone that has been so kind to care enough to give me your opinion:

After a few hours of sleep (finally after 3 days of stress induced insomnia), and re-reading everything you all have told me, I have come to the following conclusions although I still have many questions:

First, there is no question that my daughter comes first. She is in a safe place, is already in therapy and I will do everything possible to help her.

Second, I believe that he can get help because he wants it. The fact that he has been so honest, as painful as I know it has been, and doesn't ever want to hurt my daughter or me again makes me believe that if he can really follow through dealing with his own incest, one day, he will be okay. I cannot ever leave my daughter alone with him again, I know that. I know that I can not marry him and make a life with him. But I need to know if it is wrong for me to stay with him through the beginning of this process. I think that if I betray him now, he will do something to himself. I still look at him and see that 8 year old boy being victimized, and I need to know if it is wrong for me to still care about someone who could do this? I could accept all the other acting out, certainly not happy about it, but weather it was a friend of mine, a stranger, or a prostitute, it was an adult. I told him at the beginning of this process of admissions that I could deal with anything but lies, and now I think I would be lying to myself and him if I turned my back on him now.

Last, is figuring out how to move on with my own life. If you don't agree with me staying with him, please help me figure out how to leave. I have no job, no car, no money, and no one to turn to. I am recovering from health issues that have put me in the position of not working, and now that I can work, I am having trouble finding a job. I have 10 years of management experience, can't find a management job, although I put out 20+ resumes every day, and have been willing to take any job for any amount of money only to be told I am overqualified, and they don't want to train someone who will not stay, etc. I am going to school from January until March and hae been gauranteed a job when I complete this course, but I don't know what to do until then. If you believe I need to sever all ties to him, then please help me with some advice as to organizations or anyone that can help me have a place to live for the next 3 months. Otherwise, I can stay with him, continue to be his friend, but not his fiancee and get on my feet knowing my daughter is safe. We are together just about 24/7 lately, since he doesn't want to be alone since I guess that has been his trigger. He is already taking the medication prescribed last week - an antidepressent and an antipsychotic. I am not asking for a miracle cure, just some advice for myself. I know what to do for her, for him, but not for me. You have all been so helpful, I am hoping you can guide me, give me some words of wisdom, or at least pray for me.

Sandy

_________________________
Sandy

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#63510 - 12/21/04 12:55 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Enchantedlady Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 35
Sandy,

I feel for you really I do. You have to be the one to decide if you want to stay with your bf or not. I can see you are at a hard time and very emotional.

When I was 8 yrs old my mom had a boyfriend that I liked but yet didn't like, I was laying on a roll a way bed in the livingroom (that's what my mom slept on) when the bf layed down by me, he had only his underwear on. I felt very uncomfortable, I remember feeling him move behind me. I HATED the fact that my mom was with him I HATED my life alot at that time, in fact I was acting out. My mom thought it was because her and my dad divorced. I'm sure it was but my memories are about HATING that bf. I knew even then there was something not right about him laying by me.

I have some major trust issues when it comes to men, when I was 13 I was SA. My T tried to tell me that trust is a decision, I laughed and said yes I agree however I don't jumble everyone into a box of being untrustworthy. My Husband is also a survivor and we've been together for 6 yrs FINALLY the last 6 months I found out about the abuse and the lies are now understandable. However I don't trust him \:\(
Even though he has never touched my daughters I am cautious also.

Please take what everyone has said and really think about it.

_________________________
Namaste
The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you'

Hebrews 13:5 Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you

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#63511 - 12/21/04 01:21 AM Re: DESPERATE FOR ADVICE
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Sandy
Quote:
I could accept all the other acting out, certainly not happy about it, but weather it was a friend of mine, a stranger, or a prostitute, it was an adult.
If you truly feel like this, NEVER tell him.
That would be giving permission to 'do this much' and the last thing we need is permission!
If I was given an inch I would take a mile.

My wife and I have established boundaries between us. It was difficult for me, but it had to be done.
Some people might say that strict boundaries are impossible to keep and encourage us to revert to our lying and cheating once again, which is a good point.
But we also sorted out that if I crossed our agreed boundaries it would be discussed rather than punished.

That way I don't fear ( much :rolleyes: ) telling her that I have crossed a boundary or am struggling to keep inside them.
These days 'my boundaries' are much lower than they were afew years ago, it's like setting realistic targets. So if I look at porn tonight before going to bed I would tell her, probably tomorrow night. and I'd get a mixture of telling off and support.

It's important that we have a structure of sorts.
It doesn't have to be rigid and inflexible, but if we don't have goals and boundaries to govern our dysfunctional behaviors we'll find it easier to carry on as before.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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